bigot co-workers

kalipygian

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Kevin, you are on a gay-friendly site. You simply cannot post that you think homosexuality is inherantly wrong, regardless of your reasons, and have it go unchallenged. For what it's worth, we've had extensive conversations as to why even in biblical terms, Jesus himself had very little to say on the subject, and it's questionable as to whether the words translated as "homosexual" were not in fact referring to church prostitution, which of course was frowned upon at the time. Since we no longer have church prostitutes, there wasn't a good translation.

Even were this not the case, there are plenty of things in the NT, such as referring to slaves obeying their masters. We don't condone slavery anymore, does that mean we're in conflict with the Bible? Of course not! Nowhere did Jesus say that his words were to be the last things we ever considered as time went on, in fact- Jesus never even directed anyone to record his words at all, so the Bible itself is not of Jesus.

Jesus made a huge public spectacle of disobeying the current laws of the church, and to miss that is to not understand very well why he was moved to preach. He was a reformer, who continually came out on the side of Loving your brother, and seeing to your own heart. You are saying nothing new or controversial here, and in fact, had we not fairly recently had an exhaustive set of discussions on the subject, you wouldn't be finding so many of us feeling pretty strongly that it's just not worth discussing yet again.

http://www.lpsg.org/et-cetera-et-cetera/43038-the-council-of-nicaea-325-a.html

There was a better one about religion and homosexuality, but I can't remember the title or who started it. perhaps one of our other members can find it. Neither of these threads turned into bitch-fests, nor were they bible-bashing. I hope someone does find the other thread, I think you'll find the opinions of many different perspectives represented.

Sorry, but there's just no polite way of saying that you think over half of our membership is somehow less deserving of rights because YOUR interpretation of the Bible says so. The world really isn't flat, black people certainly are equal human beings, and eventually the church will have to concede that gay people are too. Every time the church has to make an adjustment though, they do so kicking and screaming. They still do it, so why waste the energy to protest the inevitable?


edit- I have to take exception to your redress of JustAsking. Did you not read anything the man wrote? "Just saying what people want to hear"? Clearly, he brought up other sins that Jesus spent far more time talking about than homosexuality, why are THOSE sins not more important, if He talked about them more? I really want an answer to this.

The thread you are probably referring to is 'All Christians not Homophobic', started by Freddie53, in Etc.
 

Kevbo

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Madame Zora:

I wasn't aware that the whole Christianity thang had been debated recently, so I will try to read up on the cited thread and get back to you (and whoever else is still following this). It won't happen tonight, though I hope you won't think I'm dodging the issue.

As far as the reply that you are asking from me concerning JustAsking, you misquoted me just enough to make a significant difference in tone. I said "you wrote what a lot of folks here wanted to hear"; you have it as "Just saying what people want to hear". You make me sound all snippy, and I thought I was much more respectful than that and truly interested in further dialogue. I don't feel I "redressed" him.

My general interpretation of the Gospels: It is true that Jesus said a lot more about some sins than others. But He did not necessarily dismiss the others -- He simply tried to get everyone to concentrate on the principles behind the Law instead of rigidly following the Law (with all the subsequent regulatory dogma that had been piled on top of it). I think He said that He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. Remember the scene where He comes upon a woman about to be stoned for adultery, and He's put to the test by the church elders there? And He tells them, "He who is without sin may cast the first stone." What does He tell the woman at the end, after all her accusers had gone? "Go forth, and sin no more." That is, I'm letting you go this time, but don't repeat the mistake.

I'm a love-the-sinner-hate-the-sin kind of guy. I don't in any way claim to be perfect or particularly judgmental. I simply tried to get surferboy and others to see the other point-of-view and cut Drew maybe a little slack on the issue. My writing and examples did not get the point across.

I will get back to this thread concerning the Christian-homophobia thread.

Kevin
 

Freddie53

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There is some information stated that is not quite accurate. There is no record of Jesus ever saying anything negative about homosexuality. The general tone of Jesus' words was about redemption, not punishment; acceptance, not rejection. and love not hate.'

But for Kevin let's pretend for a moment that Jesus said, "Do not commit homosexual acts." Did Jesus ever refuse to help or talk to the "sinners" as determined by the religious leaders of his day? No Jesus did not.

Some folks are always saying, "What would Jesus do?" I don't particularly like that line of thinking because what God wanted Jesus to do may not be the same as what God wants me to do. But nevertheless, let's set the stage. On that night when Drew refused to weight on the three gay friendly people. Let's replace Drew with Jesus. I don't believe for one minute that Jesus would have refused to ring up the sale. Not only would Jesus have rung up the sale, but Jesus would have gone out of his way to be nice to them.

A point here that I can give to Drew is what his personal beliefs are. And that goes for you Kevin as well. This is a free country and I strongly believe in religious freedom. I want both of you to have the freedom to believe what you wish about homosexuality and express it without government interference. That doesn't mean though that I lose the right to express my viewpoint.

The only issue that is important as far as the Walgreen store is whether to ring up sales for the customers or for Walgreen to have a polity that the clerks determine whether the customer's moral beliefs are worthy enough for them to buy things at Walgreen. And in general when a person accepts a job to work in retail, they agree to wait on all customers that are law abiding and not creating a disturbance that would need police assistance.

I have a hard time believing that if this went all the way to the very top executives at Walgreen that Drew and this manager would fare very well. I'm quite sure those two would be told in no uncertain terms to wait on all customers. I don't believe for one moment that the CEO at Walgreen is going to make a statement nationwide that all employees at Walgreen can refuse to ring up sales for people if they disagreed with their religious beliefs and life styles. I just don't think it would happen.

This is the issue here: It is not whether homosexuality is right or wrong. What if a clerk decided not to ring up sales for women unless their husband or father was with them because.......women shouldn't be independent and be not be equal to men. Or how about clerks who decide to not wait on women who are wearing makeup. (It is against their religion to wear makeup) Or how about clerks not waiting on women unless they are wearing a dress and the dress comes BELOW the knees? Or men who are wearing shorts?

Sometimes we need a little common sense, which was sadly lacking in Drew and the manager that night.
 

madame_zora

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Kevin, there's a lot of reading there. Please overlook much of the Stronzo arguments, they contribute very little to the dialogue (in the "not homophobic" thread).

What you keep failing to understand is that we are all "getting" what you are saying. You sound ridiculous assuming it's just so far over our heads. Seriously, read the threads as far as you can stand them before they get too off track, but give it a real effort. Then you might just get a small glimpse of who you are talking to, and how absurd it is to be presenting us with the simple concepts you're bringing, and addressing us like we are incapable of comprehending you.:rolleyes:

A second issue we've addressed ad nauseum is the issue of form vs. content. You seem concerned that I've insinuated that you were "rude" in tone to Just Asking. See, most of us don't give a flying fuck if you're rude or polite, we care about what you say- not how you say it. There is no polite way to say that someone else is less good than yourself. It just doesn't fly, it never will. When you say that it's just your opinion that homosexuality is a sin, well then why don't YOU have to label YOURSELF by your sins? Do you have to wear a tag that says "liar" or "prideful" or "arrogant" or "judgemental" or "hypocrite"? How about "fornicator", "idolator" or "asshole"? Nope, it's just the fag who has to be identified by his perceived "sin"- utterly ridiculous.

You still refuse to answer why homosexuality is a bigger deal to you, and why homosexuals would make you uncomfortable to be around, but adulterors would not. You wouldn't refuse to serve adulterors, you wouldn't cross the street to avoid them. How about drunkards? Are they as "evil" as fags? It's mentioned in the Bible not to become drunk with wine, so should we shun drunks?

Slavers are never chastised at all, should we allow it back into our culture? Jesus never mentions abortion at all, so who is it that decided for him how he felt?

My point in all of this is that you haven't done your own homework. You're regurgitating what you've been told, and you come off ignorant and lame. We get "the other side", believe me. It's just as stupid coming from you as it has been coming from everybody else, that's all. Please get down off your pedestal, acting like we've just never considered your weighty topic before.:rolleyes: I'm sure you're unaware how condescending you sound, but you may as well hear it here, before someone in real life feels like slapping the smirk off your face. Your writing is just fine, it's your ideas that suck.
 

GoneA

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What you keep failing to understand is that we are all "getting" what you are saying. You sound ridiculous assuming it's just so far over our heads. Seriously, read the threads as far as you can stand them before they get too off track, but give it a real effort. Then you might just get a small glimpse of who you are talking to, and how absurd it is to be presenting us with the simple concepts you're bringing, and addressing us like we are incapable of comprehending you.:rolleyes:

I absolutely LOVE this post, MMZ! That's a reoccurring problem that some (in not many) newcomers have -- they think we don't get their simple concepts, without knowing that we've not only challenged and refuted those simple ones, but ones that are much larger and complex. (What's more, ones many of them don't even know about!)

It's always funny, though, to see the change in their posting-style once they realize the type of people they're posting amongst. Kevbo, not least of all.
 

MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK

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ok, little background first. i work with this 17 year old. he's way smart, and he was homeschooled. he's a hardcore christian. he hates homosexuality. even though i totally don't like, agree with his opinion, i respect his right to hold it. however, what he did on saturday totally blew me away; i thought he was better than this...

on saturday, three totally gay guys came into the store, and one was like, a trans. she had boobs, but hasn't had the facial surgery yet. anyways, one of them came up to me because he had to use the bathroom. so like, as i was walkin him over to it (the door is locked with a code machine thing) he was all "the boy up front is rude"

so like, i was thinkin "drew? rude? wtf?" and i was all "what happened?" so like, the dude was all "well, you saw my friends i walked in with, right?" and i nodded. he was all "well, as we walked in, he started laughing at us, and then turned away and laughed some more" so i was all "ok, i'll talk to him about that"

so, the time came for them to check out, and they were near the magazine rack near the spare register. he called rachael up, and me, bein way nosey, wanted to know what was up. he was all "rachael, i have a favor"

"i need you to ring them up. they're very gay, and i don't agree with their lifestyle. i can't ring people like them up. i just can't do it" (and yes, that is word-for-word). so, rachael rung them up while he stayed up there, pretending to look for something. i was standing there in awe. i couldn't believe what i just saw.

now like, the people here who know me know how incredibly difficult it is to like, piss me off. but i totally saw red. i couldn't believe that someone could be so fucking bigoted that they would basically refuse to do their job because it "offended his christian beliefs"

and it's not because they were gay that i'm upset. i'd be equally upset if he had discriminated against some black dudes, or the crazy people from the crazy house. even though he may not agree with their lifestyle, and again, that's his right to hold that opinion, he had NO fuckin right to treat them like they were less than human.

i'm considering going to my boss about it tomorow when i go in tomorrow. but i dunno if anything will be done. drew is a fuckin suck up. he'll stay until 3 in the morning (which is totally illegal since he's only 17) to help with the truck on wednesdays. because he's so eager to do this, he gets sto stoll in whenever he wants. but if i'm like, 2 minutes late, i get "why are you late?!"

i'm sorry to like, unload guys, but like, i totally had to vent. what should i do?

also, do you have any stories of working with complete asstards like drew?
His religious beliefs should not have played any factor at all in deciding not to ring them up. I don't know where you work, but I can tell you that where I work at, we have a code of ethics and employee conduct.
And anytime we refuse to assist customers souley based on lfestyle, religion, race, color, creed, is grounds for being written up & quite possibly termination.
Now if these totally gay guys had made trouble with your friend , then I might understand, but refusing to assist customers for being homosexual just because he thinks he's a good christian isn't cool.
 

B_Lightkeeper

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That's sorta like a Catholic working in a drug store and refusing to sell condoms or a Muslim cashier in a grocery store refusing to sell pork meat to a customer. They are there to do a job and if they can't handle it, they need to be transferred.

I agree though that if he is fired he might hold a gruge and take it out on others.

I once knew a guy in Birmingham who was "nelly" in appearance. He was walking down the street heading for a gay bar and a couple of blacks hollered "hey sissy". He turned around and said, "that's Miss Sissy to you black ass" and kept on going.
 

HotBulge

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[When and How to Refuse Service]

And just for completeness to the topic, I wanted to raise when it is acceptable to refuse service. From my experience and ethical judgment, I've only refused a person (or allowed a subordinate to refuse service) in rare occasions. Primarily, I've refused service to a person for harm or threat of harm to another worker or other clients. I've only ever done that twice in a 10 year period.
 

Kevbo

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Well, I find myself at a point where I've become everyone's favorite whipping-boy. Not a great place to be.

I need to reevaluate whether I want to devote much time to this site. When your name has become mud, you kinda think, maybe I should take the broad hint and play in a different sandbox.

If you're thinking "Ah, Kevbo's running away", I see it rather as I've reached a point on this thread where posting anything more will accomplish absolutely nothing positive.

I guess I will part for a while with this request: when you have some spare time, go back and reread what I actually wrote and then read what beliefs and attitudes people attached to me. I have not really said much about myself here. It kind of astounds me what people assume. It was not my intention to make this thread about myself.

I think everyone will be relieved to know that I will not post for a while and may just leave here. I think I'll restrict my writing activity here to email. You know where to reach me.

Madame Z., rest easy tonight. You've made this religious conservative probably as uncomfortable here as he has ever been anywhere. Perhaps you consider this some sort of karmic justice, given the point I was trying to make. At any rate, congrats.

Everyone now, hats in the air!

Kevin
 

madame_zora

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Well, since you haven't answered a single question I've posed, you can rest assured I won't be re-reading your posts. As far as I'm concerned, if you're not going to participate in a conversation, I'm thrilled to death you're leaving. You just want to drop bombs and go on unchallenged, and that's just not how we roll. If you want some really informative reading, try our Terms of Service.
 

JustAsking

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...JustAsking: you wrote what a lot of folks here wanted to hear, and you definitely are a better fit with the demographic here than me, apparently. But I must wonder what your reading of the Bible is to endorse homosexuality without endorsing all the other things that the Bible usually speaks ill of. Please drop me some email if you care to discuss. I'm with you that love is very important for a Christian, and Jesus had a rep for hanging out with folks that the religious leaders of the day did not, but I don't see any evidence that he encouraged or endorsed continued sinful behavior...

Kevbo,
Sorry, my friend, I got distracted by some heavy work responsibilities so I didn't really see this paragraph addressed to me.

You and I see sin in very different lights. For you it is behavior proscribed in the Bible. For me (and most of mainstream Christianity), it is behavior that contributes to (or allows to continue) misery and suffering in the world.

As you can imagine, this makes for a very different discussion than wondering which sin is more important than the other. When driven by the mathematics of love, compassion, misery, and suffering, our behavior and our concerns are informed very differently than those who are carrying around a list of passages prooftexted from the Bible as a Michelin guide to who we should hate.

As Paul implies in Romans, the very notion of sin is now obsolete and replaced by this new mathematics of love, compassion vs misery and suffering. When the Law is taken off the tablets and written on the heart, its foundation is totally rebuilt based on the compassion of the heart.

In the light of that, one judges the sexual behavior of another based on such things as honesty, caring, level of commitment, lack of exploitation, etc. To make a distinction between homosexual behavior and heterosexual behavior has no meaning in that regard. To make a law that makes it illegal for gays to have a longterm committed relationship would be evil under the new mathematics. To act out one's bigotry in the name of Christ is so obviously wrong as to be ridiculous.

If the OP's cashier is a Christian, he needs to recognize that the cross-dressing flamer customer is Jesus. And he needs to remember Jesus saying, "What you do for the least of them, you do for Me." Then he needs to recognize that as a baptized Christian, the cashier is also Jesus. And we know what Jesus' response to "the least of them" was. He needs to remember that if the flaming cross-dresser were the only person on Earth, Jesus would still die for him. This is the terrible and relentless mathematics of Christ's Love. The math works out such that if the cashier is a Christian, he must be ready to die for the crossdressing flamer.

Kevbo, we do get what you are saying. Its nothing new and we have heard it for thousands of years. However, some of us had our mathematics redefined for us 2000 years ago.
 

Freddie53

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Kevbo,
Sorry, my friend, I got distracted by some heavy work responsibilities so I didn't really see this paragraph addressed to me.

You and I see sin in very different lights. For you it is behavior proscribed in the Bible. For me (and most of mainstream Christianity), it is behavior that contributes to (or allows to continue) misery and suffering in the world.

As you can imagine, this makes for a very different discussion than wondering which sin is more important than the other. When driven by the mathematics of love, compassion, misery, and suffering, our behavior and our concerns are informed very differently than those who are carrying around a list of passages prooftexted from the Bible as a Michelin guide to who we should hate.

As Paul implies in Romans, the very notion of sin is now obsolete and replaced by this new mathematics of love, compassion vs misery and suffering. When the Law is taken off the tablets and written on the heart, its foundation is totally rebuilt based on the compassion of the heart.

In the light of that, one judges the sexual behavior of another based on such things as honesty, caring, level of commitment, lack of exploitation, etc. To make a distinction between homosexual behavior and heterosexual behavior has no meaning in that regard. To make a law that makes it illegal for gays to have a longterm committed relationship would be evil under the new mathematics. To act out one's bigotry in the name of Christ is so obviously wrong as to be ridiculous.

If the OP's cashier is a Christian, he needs to recognize that the cross-dressing flamer customer is Jesus. And he needs to remember Jesus saying, "What you do for the least of them, you do for Me." Then he needs to recognize that as a baptized Christian, the cashier is also Jesus. And we know what Jesus' response to "the least of them" was. He needs to remember that if the flaming cross-dresser were the only person on Earth, Jesus would still die for him. This is the terrible and relentless mathematics of Christ's Love. The math works out such that if the cashier is a Christian, he must be ready to die for the crossdressing flamer.

Kevbo, we do get what you are saying. Its nothing new and we have heard it for thousands of years. However, some of us had our mathematics redefined for us 2000 years ago.
Everytime you post, I say this post was the best you have written. And again, this post is aboslutely written very well and the points made vey concise and clear.

I would add one more aspect of sin to what you listed and that sin is also defined as something that comes between a person and God. Only each person can know what actions he has taken that make that person now not have as good a relationship with God.

We have a out of the closet gay couple in our church. They are very active. That will do anything for anyone. They were there for my wife and me when I was hurt in an accident as in one of them drove my wife to the hospital and sat with her during the long hours of surgery and called every day to support us and both of them still are right there for us. Fine guys. Wonderful Christians. Without a doubt, they know Jesus and what Jesus stood for.
 

madame_zora

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Oh sure Just Asking and Freddie have to go and be all reasonable when I'm trying to go on a rampage.:tongue:Both of you post consistantly beautifully, and consistantly kind. I admire and appreciate your talents.

I know I sound like a flaming asshole most of the time, but it serves its purpose too. Someone has to go around shouting "bullshit, bullshit, bullshit" so that the better capable can diffuse the problems. I'm more the Paul Revere character in the story.

Kevin, if you're going to post here, you have to understand that everything you say will get challenged. That's just how it works, and you are in a very small minority position, one that we long ago rejected. If you insist on maintaining that position, I really don't see why you'd want to stay. If you are open to considering any form of personal growth, you might learn a few things here, but I don't think anyone's interesting in learning what you are trying to teach, from what I've heard so far. Up to you.
 

Freddie53

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You have to work at it at all angles for some people to see the picture. Some people will nevER see it but at least we all tried on different levels.

I will say I understand why sone people never get it. Sad so sad.

Zora, over in empty galleries thread, I think it is gettig little hot.
 

JustAsking

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...I would add one more aspect of sin to what you listed and that sin is also defined as something that comes between a person and God. Only each person can know what actions he has taken that make that person now not have as good a relationship with God...
Yes thanks Freddie. I should have said that Jesus defines the two most important relationships as loving God and loving others, and thereby defines sin as a problem in one or both of those relationships.

Oh sure Just Asking and Freddie have to go and be all reasonable when I'm trying to go on a rampage.:tongue:Both of you post consistantly beautifully, and consistantly kind. I admire and appreciate your talents.

I know I sound like a flaming asshole most of the time, but it serves its purpose too. Someone has to go around shouting "bullshit, bullshit, bullshit" so that the better capable can diffuse the problems. I'm more the Paul Revere character in the story...

MZ, by all means flame away. You do manage to sound like a flaming asshole at times, but the good news is that you do it exactly when it is called for. Bigotry needs to be challenged by any means possible, including flaming righteous indignation. And no one does FRI like you do. So please don't let us get in your way, flame away.

Edit: I meant the asshole part as a joke. Your posts are also full of excellent content woven into the fabric of the flaming. It is a very effective style.
 

madame_zora

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MZ, by all means flame away. You do manage to sound like a flaming asshole at times, but the good news is that you do it exactly when it is called for. Bigotry needs to be challenged by any means possible, including flaming righteous indignation. And no one does FRI like you do. So please don't let us get in your way, flame away.


Oh you flatterer! You know it's going to go right to my head that you coined an abbreviation for me. Betcha didn't know what a monster you were going to release with that "whited sepulchre" conversation we had way back when, now didja?:wink: Jesus did a bit of the FRI stuff too, he just had better adjectives.
 

JustAsking

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I just wanted to mention that Kevbo sent me a very thoughtful PM today and invited me into a sincere conversation with him about gays and Christianity. Reading what he has written here and what he sent me, I don't find him to be a fundamentalist. His thoughts go well beyond a simple literal reading of the Bible. Although I disagree, with him, I understand where he is coming from (not fundamentalism) and I think it will be a very good conversation. If what he and I discuss turns out to be of general interest, I will recommend that we take the discussion back to a public thread.

But don't let this be a threadstopper. The walls of this forum are still fireproof, so flaming about the OP is not a safety hazard.