bigot co-workers

madame_zora

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Absolutely! "at will employment" which is also the case in Ohio means that the employment can be terminated at will, often with very little reason. If it can be proven that the reason is discrimination, you can still sue, but if you are fired, you will likely remain fired. It IS a practical consideration, if the boss is already displaying signs of not giving a shit.

I'd send out some resumes to other companies to see how easy it would be to replace your job before I started a stink. Me? I'd do it, but I'd make damned sure I had a back-up plan. Hell, you may just find you get a better offer elsewhere anyway, but even if you decide to stay, it's good to know you have options.

Apparently, there's still a very long way to go for many people to get the message that discrimination is just plain wrong, and brave voices are few. If we who can do not speak up, then no one will. I'm so very proud of you for caring enough to take a stand. It's not the easy way, but I think you know what's right.
 

Male Bonding etc

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Madame Z is passionate about what is right, and I appreciate that about her. I too think we have to speak up for what is right.... HOWEVER, we sometimes congratulate ourselves too soon for having done the "right" thing when we haven't done the smart thing. Sometimes, waiting and doing the smart thing has longer lasting and more effective results than doing the "right" thing quickly.... Does that make sense?
 

CPearl

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What if there was no one else to ring up the customers? Would he simply have refused them service? I don't think the suits at Walgreen's corporate offices would take kindly to that. Whatever happened to 'the customer is always right?'

So, he refuses to serve 'obvious' gays and trannies? Sort of a 'don't ask, don't tell' sort of thing? What's next, a DNA swab?

This is a very slippery slope. What if an employee refused to ring a customer up because the customer were divorced?

Half my family are preachers (or married to preachers), and they would NEVER condone such hateful nonsense. Why? Because harsh judgement turns 'the sinner' away from Christianity... His duty is to attract, not to repel.
 

HotBulge

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I would think that if you were fired over this, then you would have retribution in court. Unfortunately it would depend on Which Judge heard the case. Sad, but true.

Yeah, the true reality in these cases of workplace retaliation is that it's costly to litigate. You would have to sue your employer, WalMart, for wrongful termination. WalMart is well-armed with a legal staff, and your boss could try to fabricate some reason as to why your (hypothetical) firing was justified. There are some "whisteblower" laws out there, but you would have to have a darn good employment lawyer to plead your case.

I applaud your devotion to equality, but you do have to protect yourself. If this is just a part-time job for you as a student, then it's far easier for you to quit or find some other job.

I think you can still handle the matter by pullin the 17year old kid aside and telling him that his behavior is discriminatory. As for the boss, you may want to write an "anonymous" letter to the corporate regional director as you're on your way out the door. Your boss' attitude is only exposing Walmart to potential liability and bad press.
 

DC_DEEP

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<...>
Thought experiment: let's say 3 known pedophiles, or 3 known animal sodomists, walked into your store and demanded service. Are you saying that you wouldn't have at least some issue with dealing with them? Because the revulsion you (probably?) feel is akin to how some Christians feel near flaming homosexuality. Unfair? Stupid? Unenlightened? Perhaps, IYO. But pretty much the way things are.
There's so much wrong with this part of your post, but I need to focus. First, how do you know if they are "known pedophiles?" Prior convictions? Rumors? Do they do these things on the sidewalk in front of the store before coming in to shop?

If you are a sales clerk, and a customer comes in, puts a box of tampons on the counter, and hands you a $20, you ring it up and give him his receipt - you don't ask him if he's had sex with a wildebeest lately. As long as he's not fucking babies or puppies in the nutritional supplements aisle, what's the problem?
And, if you're wondering, I know and am friends with some homo/bisexuals, and I don't get in their faces or witness to them. But they know I'm uncomfortable with their lifestyles and understand. I hope the significant gay population here will take my comments above in the context of the original scenario.

Kevin
What is there to be uncomfortable about with their lifestyles? Are they involving you in their sexual activities? I am uncomfortable with the practice of religion, but I am not uncomfortable with those who practice it. Does that make sense? What they choose to do in the privacy of their own church is none of my concern, just as what I do in the privacy of my own bedroom is none of their concern.
<...>
he was all "again, i'm gonna allow it because it's his religion, end of argument" so like, i'm not even taking this to his boss. i'm going to those gay activist groups.
You really should let the upper management of Walgreen's know about the complicity here, concerning employees harassing customers (and yes, what he did was harassment). Explain what happened, and also explain the lack of results when you talked to your manager.
<...>
what's an "at will employment" sitch? are you saying i can get fired?
Yes, "at-will" means that an employer may fire you without cause at any time.
 

Kevbo

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You ever notice that there is a difference in the choice of words and their connotations; such as refused and declined. Same here with demand and request.

I won't be manipulated by the word choice of others. I will manipulate them by the choice of mine.

In that vein, if three 'beastialists', pedophiles, or whatever walked into my store and I hypothetically was Christian I would attempt to minister to them not stone them. You'd probably find they wouldn't come back often and you would just be practicing free speech not bigotry. But then you'd actually have to know what a Christian is and not just label yourself one.

Quite strong feelings about my word choice! In one place you call me out for using "demand" instead of "request" -- a little iffy, but I'll grant you the point -- but just one paragraph later I'm associated with (metaphorically, I assume) stoning homosexuals. All I actually said was that I was uncomfortable around homosexuals. Having never worked in retail, I don't know for sure how I would react in the scenario, but in my professional life I've gotten along fine.

And for those who maybe didn't get my comparison with pedophiles/bestialists, it is not a direct comparison. It is a relative one. You may feel the same revulsion (relatively-speaking) around Bible-thumping Christians. That's your right.

As for whether I'm really a Christian or not -- I guess you've decided on the basis of my one post that you know me better than I do. Remarkable!

Kevin
 

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There's so much wrong with this part of your post, but I need to focus. First, how do you know if they are "known pedophiles?" Prior convictions? Rumors? Do they do these things on the sidewalk in front of the store before coming in to shop?

For the sake of the argument, it's not important. I'm merely trying to give some example of the real revulsion that some Christians (and, for that matter, Muslims and Jews) feel around flaming homosexuals. If you were told, by whatever means, that some guy walking down the sidewalk towards you was a known pedophile who actively sought 4-year-old boys, you probably wouldn't give him a "hi-how-ya-doin'!" and a hearty handshake. I'm guessing you would feel pretty awkward and uncomfortable, because any friendly gesture might be viewed by him (and others watching) as an endorsement of behavior that you find personally abhorrent.

Now, am I equating homosexuals with pedophiles? No. What I'm trying to equate is the discomfort that some conservative religious folks feel around flaming homosexuals. That's all.

If you are a sales clerk, and a customer comes in, puts a box of tampons on the counter, and hands you a $20, you ring it up and give him his receipt - you don't ask him if he's had sex with a wildebeest lately. As long as he's not fucking babies or puppies in the nutritional supplements aisle, what's the problem?What is there to be uncomfortable about with their lifestyles? Are they involving you in their sexual activities? I am uncomfortable with the practice of religion, but I am not uncomfortable with those who practice it. Does that make sense? What they choose to do in the privacy of their own church is none of my concern, just as what I do in the privacy of my own bedroom is none of their concern.You really should let the upper management of Walgreen's know about the complicity here, concerning employees harassing customers (and yes, what he did was harassment). Explain what happened, and also explain the lack of results when you talked to your manager.Yes, "at-will" means that an employer may fire you without cause at any time.

I'll go with your hypothetical for a moment. (Hypothetical because I've never worked retail.) If some guy walks in, who I don't know, and wants to buy something in the store, of course there's no problem.

If the guy, though, advertises himself in some way as living a lifestyle I find particularly objectionable, I might have a problem serving him. If he were gay, probably no problem -- even the Andy Bell/Lea Deloria in-your-face types I've dealt with without a problem. If it becomes a situation where the person decides that he needs to detail his sex life in front of me or swap spit with his bf, then I'm not too happy and I'm probably clearing the scene. (This has happened a couple of times in social situations and in stores where I was also a customer; I'm not accusing gays of doing this on a regular basis.)

Surfer boy was unclear in his original post how his objectionable co-worker knew that the guys who came in were gay. I've been assuming that they were quite flaming. I don't know if their conversations were on sex or not -- if so, I could definitely see why the co-worker wasn't comfortable.

As for what you do in the privacy of your home/church/whatever, generally I agree with you. But if you define yourself by a lifestyle that some folks would find objectionable, and then either by intention or accident "remind" those same folks "hey, this is what I really like to do when I'm not here", of course you're going to bother them.

Kevin
 

Kevbo

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so wait, under what circumstances is unemployment given?

If you are fired "for-cause', in many states you can't get unemployment. So don't give your boss any pedestrian reason for canning you. If you've been stealing paper towels, put 'em back :smile:

Kevin
 

transformer_99

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that is seriously fucked up

It's FL, that's why my advice was to move on and let it go. If you had complaining customers standing up for themselves rather than you holding their hands and taking them to management, I could see where you would have a leg to stand on. In case you are wondering, they have a stack of applications to fill the job you hold. That's not demeaning you personally, but they get applications everyday and all manager "x" will do is fire you one day and have employee "z" already lined up to step in. And a little thing about law suits, yeah anyone can sue anyone else, but lawyers aren't cheap and neither is any part of the legal process. Court fees can be levied and may even be required. Something like this drags out forever and is left to a jury to decide. That's probably why your irate customers didn't waste their time filling out a complaint form. In today's world, you get even by word of mouth and your own purchasing habits. Economic sanctions work if you can organize enough people. You won't dent Walgreens as a whole, but you can sure go out of your way to send the local business to CVS or Eckerds or wherever.
 

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For the sake of the argument, it's not important. I'm merely trying to give some example of the real revulsion that some Christians (and, for that matter, Muslims and Jews) feel around flaming homosexuals. If you were told, by whatever means, that some guy walking down the sidewalk towards you was a known pedophile who actively sought 4-year-old boys, you probably wouldn't give him a "hi-how-ya-doin'!" and a hearty handshake. I'm guessing you would feel pretty awkward and uncomfortable, because any friendly gesture might be viewed by him (and others watching) as an endorsement of behavior that you find personally abhorrent.

Now, am I equating homosexuals with pedophiles? No. What I'm trying to equate is the discomfort that some conservative religious folks feel around flaming homosexuals. That's all.



I'll go with your hypothetical for a moment. (Hypothetical because I've never worked retail.) If some guy walks in, who I don't know, and wants to buy something in the store, of course there's no problem.

If the guy, though, advertises himself in some way as living a lifestyle I find particularly objectionable, I might have a problem serving him. If he were gay, probably no problem -- even the Andy Bell/Lea Deloria in-your-face types I've dealt with without a problem. If it becomes a situation where the person decides that he needs to detail his sex life in front of me or swap spit with his bf, then I'm not too happy and I'm probably clearing the scene. (This has happened a couple of times in social situations and in stores where I was also a customer; I'm not accusing gays of doing this on a regular basis.)

Surfer boy was unclear in his original post how his objectionable co-worker knew that the guys who came in were gay. I've been assuming that they were quite flaming. I don't know if their conversations were on sex or not -- if so, I could definitely see why the co-worker wasn't comfortable.

As for what you do in the privacy of your home/church/whatever, generally I agree with you. But if you define yourself by a lifestyle that some folks would find objectionable, and then either by intention or accident "remind" those same folks "hey, this is what I really like to do when I'm not here", of course you're going to bother them.

Kevin
Several comparisons and examples. First the pedophile that works along side you. You said you wouldn't want to give the old good handshake and how do you do. That is understandable. But if both of you are working at the same place of employment, you will have to be professional and converse where necessary. But come now, do you really think a store is going to hire a known pedophile to work in a store where children are coming and going all the time. We are talking about WalGreens, not a liquor store. This example isn't really applicable. No Walgreen's is going to hire a convicted pedophile to work in a family store,
But convicted pedophiles will once out of prison need to shop. One comes in the store and has some purchases to make. It doesn't matter. The employee rings up the items a takes the money and then gives the change. The employee isn't bound to banter around and joke with everyone who comes in the store, just be the retail clerk you are as long as the person isn't breaking any laws. The the pedophile is fondling a 7 year old child over in the toy section, call the police and have him arrested. You don't have to worry about the pedophile buying anything that day.

All of this to state that the pedophile comparison isn't applicable here at all.

Now the part about being uncomfortable because the person is divorced, gay, has on too much jewelry, wears outdated clothes, has bad breath, just farted and has stunk up the whole store -- all of this is not relevant to the employee. The employee is to make the sale, not to judge the person. That is pure and simple. The clerk is under no obligation to become friends. Ringing up the sale doesn't mean that the employee loves the smell of farts, old fashions clothes, or gay lifestyle or divorced Christians. All of that is not relevant.

Surferboy is correct from the get go on all of this. It doesn't matter how much the gays were flaming. Even if one of them made a pass at the boy, it is best to ring up the sale and let the gay couple leave.

Of course if someone was coming into the store and harassing an employee, the other employees should do what they could to diffuse the situation including offering to wait on the customer. But Surferboy never stated that any of that happened.

My gut feeling is that the boy knows that Suferboy is gay. The boy is wise enough not to cause a scene with another employee. I suspect that the boy refused the wait on the gays as a statement to Suferboy. A way to try to get to Suferboy. That is just a gut feeling.

Surferboy, I love you sense of right and wrong and your willingness to stand by your convictions. You might lose your job, but you won't lose your honor and integrity. Unfortunately the store manger may lose his honor and integrity. But that is his problem.
 

GoneA

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Now, am I equating homosexuals with pedophiles? No. What I'm trying to equate is the discomfort that some conservative religious folks feel around flaming homosexuals. That's all.

Except you are. However, I see your larger point, and I think it's a lame cop-out. That "larger point", I believe you summed up here:

But if you define yourself by a lifestyle that some folks would find objectionable, and then either by intention or accident "remind" those same folks "hey, this is what I really like to do when I'm not here", of course you're going to bother them

I'll concur, only in part, with this statement, but I think you're forgetting one very crucial point -- the employee, Drew, was in a work-environment. By refusing to complete the task he's paid to perform, his personal convictions caused him to over-step his boundaries. (This incident encountered by Suferboy is only a macrocosm of what's happened to the gay-community, nationally. The personal convictions held by the members of the political right have encroached on the civil liberties of gays.)

An individual's problem with another person's (harmless) lifestyle is no more than a self-inflicted burden. It's their job to get over it, not exact their anger or discomfort on the ones with which they take exception.


Kevbo said:
(This has happened a couple of times in social situations and in stores where I was also a customer; I'm not accusing gays of doing this on a regular basis.)

Not that you're suggesting that if gays did do this on a regular basis, there'd be something wrong with it.

Kevbo said:
Surfer boy was unclear in his original post how his objectionable co-worker knew that the guys who came in were gay.
Actually, Surferboy wasn't unclear, at all. In fact, he said this:
and one was like, a trans. she had boobs, but hasn't had the facial surgery yet.

That's how the boy knew; he then proceeded to mock them. If his objection to their sexual orientation was truly an outcropping of his religious beliefs, I doubt he would've have scoffed the way he did, in my opinion.
 

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I'll go with your hypothetical for a moment. (Hypothetical because I've never worked retail.) If some guy walks in, who I don't know, and wants to buy something in the store, of course there's no problem.

If the guy, though, advertises himself in some way as living a lifestyle I find particularly objectionable, I might have a problem serving him. If he were gay, probably no problem -- even the Andy Bell/Lea Deloria in-your-face types I've dealt with without a problem. If it becomes a situation where the person decides that he needs to detail his sex life in front of me or swap spit with his bf, then I'm not too happy and I'm probably clearing the scene. (This has happened a couple of times in social situations and in stores where I was also a customer; I'm not accusing gays of doing this on a regular basis.)

Surfer boy was unclear in his original post how his objectionable co-worker knew that the guys who came in were gay. I've been assuming that they were quite flaming. I don't know if their conversations were on sex or not -- if so, I could definitely see why the co-worker wasn't comfortable.

As for what you do in the privacy of your home/church/whatever, generally I agree with you. But if you define yourself by a lifestyle that some folks would find objectionable, and then either by intention or accident "remind" those same folks "hey, this is what I really like to do when I'm not here", of course you're going to bother them.

Kevin Yo kevin you are so on point bro.i have been reading some of these replies and yours hits home for me....my brother is gay and i love him dearly but still sometimes we have been at walmart or staples and he will be going on describing to me the things he has done with some guy he met when i realize he is talking a bit too loud by the horrified looks we will get from other people and i have to remind him to take it down a little...i am not embarrassed its just that i know that not everyone is interested in his love life and sexual gymnastic feats....on the same note..i wouldnt be talking loudly with a bud of mine about how he banged this chick the other night or how well she sucked him off ...privacy...thats why i hate people who talk on their cell phones in public...having speakerphone conversations.....i do not want to hear Your conversations...
 

BlkIron11

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i did that wrong i was trying to include part of a quote from kevbo then comment on it..it ended up looking wrong..i will eventually get the hang of this yet//i just enjoy the way kevbo says stuff..
 

surferboy

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And for those who maybe didn't get my comparison with pedophiles/bestialists, it is not a direct comparison. It is a relative one.

dude, it's not a relative comparison at all. that argument has been atempted to be made, but it never works. you cannot logically compare homosexuals to pedos and beasties.



I'm merely trying to give some example of the real revulsion that some Christians (and, for that matter, Muslims and Jews) feel around flaming homosexuals.

i know plenty of jews, christians, catholics, and muslims who don't give a shit how flaming a homosexual may be. hell, most of them have flaming friends (and they're straight, btw). they're smart enough to realize that their sexualities have absolutely no effect on their friendships. it's only the ignorant bastards that feek uncomfy around them, and then turn around blaming their religion.



If the guy, though, advertises himself in some way as living a lifestyle I find particularly objectionable, I might have a problem serving him. If he were gay, probably no problem -- even the Andy Bell/Lea Deloria in-your-face types I've dealt with without a problem. If it becomes a situation where the person decides that he needs to detail his sex life in front of me or swap spit with his bf, then I'm not too happy and I'm probably clearing the scene.

i don't see how this is relevant to what went down on saturday. did the 3 dudes flaunt their sexuality? no. did they discuss their sexual escapades with drew? no. did they hit on him even in the slightest way? no. they only thing they're guilty of is being themselves.

the truly guilty ones are drew for being a discriminating, ignorant bigot, and my boss for saying that it's totally fine to discriminate as long as it's "in the name of religion."
 

rubberwilli

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Hey surf sorry to post and run on the "at-will" issue. But most everyone has gotten things straight here for you.

At will employment means your job can be terminated at any point in time without cause
because, basically, you serve at the pleasure of the manager, to warp a west wing line. In these cases for the most part no reason will be given and you are just out.

If they terminate your employment (ie: fire you) for a reason, then you have some grounds on which to argue discrimination or unfair termination if you truly believe it was unfair or have documentation to prove otherwise.

If you were terminated "at will" then there typically is no problem getting unemployment, you fill out a few papers, do what the unemployment office says and there you go.

If you were fired on some basis, such as violation of internet policies, or unauthorized use of company resources, etc...then you can still file for un-employment, but you have a different set of paperwork to fill out. In that case you have to prove that you are worthy of unemployment and that you were not in the wrong (to some extent.) IE: I had never seen the policy before, I was unaware that was a violation of company policy, etc...

If you were fired with cause, most likely your former employer will contest your ability to collect unemployment. Then you will be fighting the corporate unemployment lawyers to get your unemployment. (Yes, there are lawyers who specialize in defending companies against unemployment claims, hard to believe a worse job exists but it does.) It's still possible to get unemployment if they contest your eligibility (I've done it) but they are not going to make it easy for you.

That's why I say, if you think it's going to cause to many waves when you go to the NGLTF or HRC, or when you take it to the District Manager, line up some other job while you are in that process and cover your ass.
 

Principessa

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I agree with HotBulge. You may also want to remind this sanctimonious, narrow-minded prick that his behavior is NOT What Jesus Would Do.

On another note, this is one of my reasons for being against home schooling. They never learn how to interact with people who are not just like themselves. :mad:

Wow, Surferboy, it looks as though you have a lesson in life to give. It's for the greater good because your co-worker is so young (17 years old) and insulated in his experiences. Yesterday's interaction with the gay customers was probably the first time being openly exposed to gay people. Remember how many of us were at 17 - filled with dogma and certainty about our views, yet raw and inexperienced.

In the course of 3 minutes, you basically neeed to do the following:

(1) Ask to see him him in private to discuss and important matter.
#1 Rule of Management: "praise in public, punish in private."

(2) Immediately start with saying that you need to talk about yesterday's incident with the gay and transsexual customers. His behavior is exposing the business to a lawsuit for discrimination. He'll probably look at you with a puzzled look.

(3) Explain that he is ethically obligated to serve all law-abiding customers fairly, even if he doesn't agree with their lifestyle. Being gay or transexual has nothing to do with his ability to ring up a simple sales transaction. His behavior was no different than 50 years ago when Blacks could not eat at the same lunch counter as Whites. BINGO!!

(4) If he starts to argue, tell him that you will have to report his behavior to the manager because it's costing the store $$ and it may lead to a lawsuit. This is probably true. I know I always tell everyone I know when I receive poor treatment in a store.

(5) Give him some sense that gays aren't horrible people and he will probably encounter more of them in the future. Let him know that if/when he goes off to college, he will encounter people from all backgrounds and will need to deal with them fairly. If he goes to college it will probably be Oral Roberts University or Bob Jones University. Where he will meet more of the same. :frown1:

(6) END OF SERMON. (Tell him that exactly. Maybe he'll understand the religious language).