Caster Semenya

[LeeEJ]

article from the LA Times....

Runner Caster Semenya has heard the gender comments all her life -- latimes.com

frankly, the whole racism angle that South Africans are whining about rings a bit hollow, considering nobody is castigating Usain Bolt or other black men or women in track and field who are champions.

ever heard of Jackie Joyner Kersee and Florence Griffith Joyner? Evelyn Ashford?

A quote from that article:

"They're jealous of my daughter," she said. "It's the first girl in the black people doing such things. That's why they say those things."

Apparently she never heard of Flo Jo, either.

 

[Flashy]

Apparently she never heard of Flo Jo, either.

yeah...or any of the famed Kenyan runners who have dominated the long distance running events for years.

or the ethiopians who have dominated middle distance running...

or some of the great african sprinters like Francis Obikwelu, Olusoji Fasuba, who are both Nigerian and have run under 10 seconds (Obikwelu runs for Portugal though) Frankie Fredericks of Namibia

hell if you look on this all time performance list you are lucky to find a couple of white dudes on there...

Men's 100m

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Looking at the vids, it would never occur to me that she might be a woman.

 

[Flashy]

Looking at the vids, it would never occur to me that she might be a woman.

yeah i know...she looks like she could be playing football here

and this for me is a subtle hint...not confirmation, but a solid hint...

when was the last female athlete (except for a female bodybuilder on stage) you saw make the "muscle pose" after winning? I have *NEVER* seen a woman do that...it is almost an exclusively male "macho" posturing in athletic circles.

http://images.smh.com.au/ftsmh/ffximage/2009/08/20/Caster_Semenya2_wideweb__470x295,0.jpg

or the fist

http://www.iaaf.org/mm/photo/competitions/competition/04/96/47/49647_full-prt.jpg

this less so, but do you see lots of track and field women athletes sit like this?

http://www.popfi.com/wp-content/uploads/caster-semenya.jpg


the "attitude" screams man.


and look at this video...

why is she wearing those long shorts? women rarely wear those, do they?

and look at it, she other women are utterly gassed and it is written on their faces and in their breathing...she barely looks like she is at 80% effort...almost casual

YouTube - Caster Semenya .... is a MAN?!


and here is the whole race...actually this is a different race, i believe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGxJp_ScVFc&

 

[Gillette]

The "muscle pose" I think is just that two fisted clench people do when they've won something. It's that "YES!" pose. If you've never seen a woman do it you can't have seen many game shows. Same deal with the triumphant fist in the air. It's a unisex gesture.

The sitting pic is an odd way for a woman to sit but not unheard of either. After a race you'll take any seat you can find to rest, Caster's perch in that pic being a pylon having her legs open is just good balance.

The first YouTube vid, on the other hand, showed something I consider suggestive of something. If you watch the hip and shoulder motions of all the other runners and compare that to the body motions of Caster. Then watch the following.

YouTube - 2004 Olympic 800m Final

Men and women have differently shaped hip bones. As a result of this pelvic difference our gaits vary from one gender to another. I think Caster runs like a man.

I wouldn't consider it conclusive of anything but I don't think it's surprising that genetic testing was requested.

 

[LeeEJ]

this less so, but do you see lots of track and field women athletes sit like this?

http://www.popfi.com/wp-content/uploads/caster-semenya.jpg

Well, she's not sitting pretty like a debutante at finishing school, but more importantly, I don't see a "unit" (if you know what I mean :wink in those shorts at all. Even a "grower" in LPSG terms would show a lil' somethin' bulging in tight shorts like those.

Of course, the genitals don't mean everything, either.

I'm waiting for those Youtube vids to load now..

Okay, so I guess she wears her tights a little baggy in front...?

Then, one of the comments says, "What about Maria Mutola?" Go check her out...

 

[Flashy]

The "muscle pose" I think is just that two fisted clench people do when they've won something. It's that "YES!" pose. If you've never seen a woman do it you can't have seen many game shows. Same deal with the triumphant fist in the air. It's a unisex gesture.

The sitting pic is an odd way for a woman to sit but not unheard of either. After a race you'll take any seat you can find to rest, Caster's perch in that pic being a pylon having her legs open is just good balance.

well, true, i do not watch many women on game shows, but i have never seen them "flex" in the times i have. you are probably right on the fist pose and on the pylon sitting, but i have to disagree on the Flex... i have just never seen a female athlete do the "Flex". the "Flex" tends to be more of a trash-talking, "look at me" pose

i know it seems silly but bear with me:

Flo Jo

http://sc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/AE1D1325...94A8550/2930/18FlorenceGriffithJoyner1988.jpg

Jackie Joyner Kersee

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/breath/breath_exhibit/breath_life_images/VIIB15.gif

Evelyn Ashford

http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/documents/attached_file/filename/4739/Evelyn_Ashford_web.jpg


Marion Jones

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2007/10/05/alg_marion_jones.jpg


Bob Sanders

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/26497/BobSanders.jpg


Lofa Tatupu

http://www.dallasnews.com/img/photo/01-05/usc2.jpg


Caster Semenya

http://www.morethanthegames.co.uk/files/morethanthegames/semenyaberlin.jpg



that is my theory, :wink:

The first YouTube vid, on the other hand, showed something I consider suggestive of something. If you watch the hip and shoulder motions of all the other runners and compare that to the body motions of Caster. Then watch the following.

YouTube - 2004 Olympic 800m Final

Men and women have differently shaped hip bones. As a result of this pelvic difference our gaits vary from one gender to another. I think Caster runs like a man.

I wouldn't consider it conclusive of anything but I don't think it's surprising that genetic testing was requested.

i agree with you completely gillette...i noticed the difference in the running gait as well.

 

[Flashy]

Well, she's not sitting pretty like a debutante at finishing school, but more importantly, I don't see a "unit" (if you know what I mean :wink in those shorts at all. Even a "grower" in LPSG terms would show a lil' somethin' bulging in tight shorts like those.

Of course, the genitals don't mean everything, either.

true...but she/he could have a micropenis and testicles that maybe did not drop...i don't know the particulars...or she may have had surgery when younger, or was reassigned...i just do not know enough about the procedures to comment intelligently with knowledge about it :redface:

I'm waiting for those Youtube vids to load now..

Okay, so I guess she wears her tights a little baggy in front...?

Then, one of the comments says, "What about Maria Mutola?" Go check her out...

yeah i checked out Maria Mutola, but she has a higher pitched voice...

 

[LeeEJ]

true...but she/he could have a micropenis and testicles that maybe did not drop...i don't know the particulars...or she may have had surgery when younger, or was reassigned...i just do not know enough about the procedures to comment intelligently with knowledge about it :redface:

Yeah, exactly; and like the IAAF rep said, the rules want to place people in neat categories, but nature tends to be sloppy.

yeah i checked out Maria Mutola, but she has a higher pitched voice...

So did Micheal Jackson (and Mike Tyson, for that matter) :biggrin1:

well, true, i do not watch many women on game shows, but i have never seen them "flex" in the times i have. you are probably right on the fist pose and on the pylon sitting, but i have to disagree on the Flex... i have just never seen a female athlete do the "Flex". the "Flex" tends to be more of a trash-talking, "look at me" pose

To be fair, that could be a cultural thing, especially after playing against the boys all the time at school like her mom has said about her.

 

[D_Kissimmee Coldsore]

Whatever the results of the tests are, the fact remains that the IAAF have made a complete mess of the whole thing and it is disgusting. I suspect foul play from a rival camp leaking this to the media. Michael Johnson even explained how if an A sample comes back positive, no name is released. Only if a B sample is positive is a doper named. So why has Semenya's name come out before any test have even taken place? Especially when, unlike doping, this may very well not be deliberate cheating.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Hmmm, seems that Caster has had a remarkable makeover.
No question that she looks far more feminine now.
Whether this feels natural to her or not ... who knows?

 

[Flashy]

Hmmm, seems that Caster has had a remarkable makeover.
No question that she looks far more feminine now.
Whether this feels natural to her or not ... who knows?

yeah i saw that ...

but news today states that Caster is in fact, a hermaphrodite

Report: South African runner caster Semenya has male, female sex organs - More Sports - SI.com

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

yeah i saw that ...

but news today states that Caster is in fact, a hermaphrodite

Report:*South African runner caster Semenya has male, female sex organs - More Sports - SI.com

Wow. Fascinating.

"Medical reports indicate she has no ovaries, but rather has internal male testes, which are producing large amounts of testosterone."

I imagine she had no idea herself.

I don't know what they should do with the triumphs she has in hand ... but I can't see why she should be allowed to compete as a woman in the future.

 

[Flashy]

yeah, it is kind of a tough call though.

she is not deliberately cheating obviously, by using performance enhancing drugs like HGH, roids, testosterone etc...

but, technically, she does have an unfair physical advantage that is not part of a "woman"s anatomy.

testes are inherently male (i am pretty sure) and they are producing high levels of a hormone that i believe women do not have anywhere near that natural production of testosterone, in fact they produce only a tiny fraction of it.

so, by an unusual physical anomaly, she is technically receiving a distinct, chemical induced (although naturally if abnormally occurring) boost that none of her competitors have...and that is not fair.

it is also not fair that she should suffer for being born like that...technically, it is not fair to anyone, mainly because there is not a precedent.

i am sort of torn. i do not think it is fair for the other women, but i also do not wish to judge someone who probably did not know, and did not deliberately do anythign to cheat, other than be herself, which is surely Ok.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

it is also not fair that she should suffer for being born like that...technically, it is not fair to anyone, mainly because there is not a precedent.

Obviously, she is a victim in this, as much as anyone.

i am sort of torn. i do not think it is fair for the other women, but i also do not wish to judge someone who probably did not know, and did not deliberately do anythign to cheat, other than be herself, which is surely Ok.

But you do agree that she should not be allowed to compete in future as a woman, right?
Your only hesitation is whether she should be stripped of her past accomplishments.
I'm guessing, FlashMan.

 

[Flashy]

Obviously, she is a victim in this, as much as anyone.


But you do agree that she should not be allowed to compete in future as a woman, right?
Your only hesitation is whether she should be stripped of her past accomplishments.
I'm guessing, FlashMan.

no, i do not think she should be stripped. i think she did not deliberately do any of this (but if she did know she had testes internally, than that would be extremely disingenuous...i am inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt)

she did not deliberately cheat...i take her word on that, and i think she did not know about this, and this is who she is (though i do wonder, what the South African Federation knew...i find it very difficult to believe that in all their testing, they did not notice very high levels of testosterone...my guess, is that they asked her, are you taking anything? She probably answered honestly "No"...because she honestly wasn't....i cannot believe that a South African Athletics official doctor did not wonder about the situation, when she said that, and think that something else may have been going on, abnormally in her body, without her knowing it)

I am rather suspicious of the federation, but not of her. considering how much cheating goes on in track and field especially, i wouldnt put it past anyone.

i do not think that she knew, but how could the RSA federation, who tests athletes for drugs, etc. not spot this?

something smells fishy in that regard.

but no, i do not think she should be stripped...but i do think, as the article said, the runner who came in 2nd should be given a gold too...she was afterall, the only woman in the field to finish first, behind a woman that had an unfair, albeit natural advantage.

i think the situation should be settled with compassion, and fairness to all involved with regards to past achievements and let things go at that.

enough harm has been done...but clearly, Caster cannot compete with this unfair advantage in the future against women she has an absolutely clear chemical advantage over, even through no fault of her own.


if that makes sense, IMO :smile:

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

i think the situation should be settled with compassion, and fairness to all involved with regards to past achievements and let things go at that.

enough harm has been done...but clearly, Caster cannot compete with this unfair advantage in the future against women she has an absolutely clear chemical advantage over, even through no fault of her own.

if that makes sense, IMO :smile:

That's all a bingo for me, Flashy.

 

[Flashy]

That's all a bingo for me, Flashy.

figured it would be...great minds think alike :wink::smile:

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

figured it would be...great minds think alike :wink::smile:

... and weak minds ...

But I'm taking the hopeful choice ...
... and I know you are too.:biggrin1:

 

[Flashy]

... and weak minds ...

But I'm taking the hopeful choice ...
... and I know you are too.:biggrin1:

i'll make sure to do my mental bench presses this week...just in case :biggrin1: