english-polish relations....

Rugbypup

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So what is the new zealander identity?

I've lived in both countries, there is a massive difference in the general way the Kiwi's celebrate themselves and their nation in comparison to the English.

I use the term 'English' as a pose to 'British', refers to the the United Kingdom of Great Briton... this includes the Scots, the Welsh and Northern Irish, all of which have distinct, almost separate identities from England nowadays.

In England, defining, even celebrating being English is acceptable in very few circumstances that I can remember. Sports teams abroad is the only one I can think of. We were always told we're British over being English, right back from childhood I don't ever recall any acknowledgement of the English nationality. Almost like it was a taboo, something we don't really talk about, but never an explanation why?

As you say English history is long, bloody and not without it's shames. But I don't see that as reason enough to sweep national identity under the rug, if it were, Germany, for example, would have renamed itself after the war, surely? I don't see any moral high ground to be taken by bandying the tar brush of bigotry and xenophobia around. These are aspects of the human condition we are all subject to though sadly there are grossly xenophobic and bigoted people around, thus tolerance is the most essential quality of many, I can't agree with that more. Tolerance is tragically one of the first to die when fear and indignation bite you in the arse so hard it bleeds. I've no idea how to solve that one.

Sadly, English identity is synonymous with football riots and hooliganism, tea drinking, chavs, bad teeth, pissed up Mancunians with kebabs on weekend nights, stuffy 'no sex please' high society, inbred nobility in London and cheap, booze soak sex binges in formally nasty, forgotten Mediterranean holiday resorts. Ayia Napa and Ibiza to name a few.

Perhaps I'm jaded, perhaps the rose tinted glasses are covered in shite and this is all I can now see of England. Sigh, but what exactly does being English mean any more?

The Kiwi identity is far more resolute among it's people, even if they are not aware of that fact. Not as dogmatic and zealous as the Americans, but far, far more than the intangible English.

When was the last time you sang the English national anthem? What's the first verse? (Without Google) What was it sang for?

In contrast, regardless of heritage, race and creed, I don't think there is a child in NZ that couldn't sing the NZ anthem to you in both English and Maori. It's sung at the open of nearly all local and nation events, regardless of their nature.

A small difference perhaps but one with thin edge of the wedge implications for a nation. The main difference is, the Kiwis know who they are, they respect and take pride in there nation, that's seemingly forgotten in England and the English. The Kiwis know who they are as a nationality. Their identity has only really been developing on it's own since the 1960 so I guess that might account for why it's so well defined.

Kiwis, even in an official capacities, openly acknowledge people as not being a Kiwi without fear of offending people on some bull shite PC thin ice reasoning. The indigenous citizens and people are recognised first and foremost... have you ever read an NZ immigration form? If England implemented half the stringent policies the Kiwis have, I swear the country would be half empty. NZ is certainly none the poorer for it.

I don't buy the bull shit about foreigners doing the jobs the nationals wouldn't touch with a barge pole either. If the country needs nurses, implement a scheme to recruit and train nurses without paying them a pittance and charging them the Earth, don't just hire them from wherever's going. Hows about investing in ones own people? Though I do think much of general social decline to that effect has much to do with relentless consumerism. The must have iPhone takes presidents over actually having the shitty job that buys it in many sections of society, in my opinion.

I feel the English, being English has become a forgotten, slightly embarrassed, marred and undefined identity, that's all and as such I can see why people would become hostile towards immigrant and foreigners, not just the Polish.

My fear is that the unrest it creates can and will lead to a dark and awful future for England. That makes me very sad.
 
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Rugbypup

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Kinda strange as Americans are all immigrants!

I think the problem with have in the UK is they are constantly trying to tell us we're British, but we'd much rather be English, Welsh, Irish (northern) or Scottish!
Then of course we pander to the immigrants here. Benefit forms in 101 languages, come on now, you want to take our social security money, learn to read/write the f***ing native language! Grrrrr!

Just over two hundred years ago they were all immigrants, they have had enough time to define themselves as a nation since then. There are people born American, that has it's own identity in 2009 regardless of their heritage and origins.

Secondly, great point.
 

mitchymo

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I've lived in both countries, there is a massive difference in the general way the Kiwi's celebrate themselves and their nation in comparison to the English.

I use the term 'English' as a pose to 'British', refers to the the United Kingdom of Great Briton... this includes the Scots, the Welsh and Northern Irish, all of which have distinct, almost separate identities from England nowadays.

In England, defining, even celebrating being English is acceptable in very few circumstances that I can remember. Sports teams abroad is the only one I can think of. We were always told we're British over being English, right back from childhood I don't ever recall any acknowledgement of the English nationality. Almost like it was a taboo, something we don't really talk about, but never an explanation why?

As you say English history is long, bloody and not without it's shames. But I don't see that as reason enough to sweep national identity under the rug, if it were, Germany, for example, would have renamed itself after the war, surely? I don't see any moral high ground to be taken by bandying the tar brush of bigotry and xenophobia around. These are aspects of the human condition we are all subject to though sadly there are grossly xenophobic and bigoted people around, thus tolerance is the most essential quality of many, I can't agree with that more. Tolerance is tragically one of the first to die when fear and indignation bite you in the arse so hard it bleeds. I've no idea how to solve that one.

Sadly, English identity is synonymous with football riots and hooliganism, tea drinking, chavs, bad teeth, pissed up Mancunians with kebabs on weekend nights, stuffy 'no sex please' high society, inbred nobility in London and cheap, booze soak sex binges in formally nasty, forgotten Mediterranean holiday resorts. Ayia Napa and Ibiza to name a few.

Perhaps I'm jaded, perhaps the rose tinted glasses are covered in shite and this is all I can now see of England. Sigh, but what exactly does being English mean any more?

The Kiwi identity is far more resolute among it's people, even if they are not aware of that fact. Not as dogmatic and zealous as the Americans, but far, far more than the intangible English.

When was the last time you sang the English national anthem? What's the first verse? (Without Google) What was it sang for?

In contrast, regardless of heritage, race and creed, I don't think there is a child in NZ that couldn't sing the NZ anthem to you in both English and Maori. It's sung at the open of nearly all local and nation events, regardless of their nature.

A small difference perhaps but one with thin edge of the wedge implications for a nation. The main difference is, the Kiwis know who they are, they respect and take pride in there nation, that's seemingly forgotten in England and the English. The Kiwis know who they are as a nationality. Their identity has only really been developing on it's own since the 1960 so I guess that might account for why it's so well defined.

Kiwis, even in an official capacities, openly acknowledge people as not being a Kiwi without fear of offending people on some bull shite PC thin ice reasoning. The indigenous citizens and people are recognised first and foremost... have you ever read an NZ immigration form? If England implemented half the stringent policies the Kiwis have, I swear the country would be half empty. NZ is certainly none the poorer for it.

I don't buy the bull shit about foreigners doing the jobs the nationals wouldn't touch with a barge pole either. If the country needs nurses, implement a scheme to recruit and train nurses without paying them a pittance and charging them the Earth, don't just hire them from wherever's going. Hows about investing in ones own people? Though I do think much of general social decline to that effect has much to do with relentless consumerism. The must have iPhone takes presidents over actually having the shitty job that buys it in many sections of society, in my opinion.

I feel the English, being English has become a forgotten, slightly embarrassed, marred and undefined identity, that's all and as such I can see why people would become hostile towards immigrant and foreigners, not just the Polish.

My fear is that the unrest it creates can and will lead to a dark and awful future for England. That makes me very sad.

You bring up some interesting points which i am sure are similiar to questions raised before.
I will try to explain how i see it.

If you ask an englishman to describe his national identity then he will probably describe many of the things that you did. If you ask them to give negative and positives then things like chavs and binge drinking are going to top the polls for negative examples whereas sport and sense of humour and courage may top the positives.

The english have a history of fighting off invaders and defending their allies, we are a courageous country and we combine well with the scots that can be described the same, we are a UK now and individual identity is harder to distinguish between than they used to be but our contribution plays perhaps the biggest part.

We have been pioneers in exploration and scientific discovery and i think we are definately leaders in technological advances and medical research. I think we are as the world grows becoming more and more evolved.

If a trend starts somewhere in the world does it make a country bizarre or controversial for being different? Would it be such a bad thing that a sense of individual (english) identity is diluted with that of the other Brits or on a larger scale Europe? Some seem irrationally concerned with the idea of unity, i see it as a good thing.

Patriotism is great for national identity but then it is easier to control a nation by having you pledge allegiance to your country because in fact you are only supporting your government.

I see no point in singing to a tune when you are displeased with your government and the system that governs your whole life, i reckon that the UK is just the first to experience a more global change where people are disillusioned and seek to look after themselves and their friends rather than the guys in the next street.
 

eurotop40

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Why does'nt Switzerland join the Union? I don't know why Norway is'nt in it either.

Hm, I think there are two explanations:
1) Switzerland is a direct democracy (as much as there can be one). We go to vote avery three months. The people is sovereign. Joining the EU would delegate some of this sovereignty to Brussels, which most Swiss don't like (we can even vote on lowering taxation or abolishinghe army).
2) Switzerland is a multiethnic country. The ethnicities correspond to the bordering countries. Many think that joining the EU would create centrifugal forces eventually merging the different regions with Germany, France and Italy (like splitting Belgium between France and The Netherlands).
Apart from that Switzerland is actually very much integrated in the EU de facto and gives a lot of money to the EU (lately it gave 275 million CHF to Romania and Bulgaria as a "present").

As for Norway, I think there is a simple explanation: they want to keep all the money they make with oil for themselves.
 

Drifterwood

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Generally great people the Poles.

All my agency part time people are Polish. I am not looking for cheap labour, and with Polish people have found honest hard workers. I can't say the same for the part time options provided by the British unemployed.

I'd far rather get rid of 3,000,000 useless lazy British assholes.

Anyone want them?

I thought not.
 
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798686

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I love the Poles - they're great. Most of the Eastern Europeans I've met over here since 2004 are incredibly hardworking, much more so than us. :/ Maybe they've had to work harder for things than we have.

It was very alarming though after the 10 Eastern nations joined the EU in 2004, and we were one of the only nations to let them in to work. 13,000 arrivals were predicted (foolishly) over 5 years, but over 1 million came in less than a year. It seemed like all the jobs in pubs, hotels and petrol stations were suddenly taken by Eastern Europeans.

However, with the recession, about half of them have since gone home.
 
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luka82

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I love the Poles - they're great. Most of the Eastern Europeans I've met over here since 2004 are incredibly hardworking, much more so than us. :/ Maybe they've had to work harder for things than we have.

It was very alarming though after the 10 Eastern nations joined the EU in 2004, and we were one of the only nations to let them in to work. 13,000 arrivals were predicted (foolishly) over 5 years, but over 1 million came in less than a year. It seemed like all the jobs in pubs, hotels and petrol stations were suddenly taken by Eastern Europeans.

However, with the recession, about half of them have since gone home.
That`s because, we, the EASTERN EUROPEANS hear a lot about your GREAT country in school!:biggrin1:
Fuck, i wonna go to London:wink:
 

D_Andreas Sukov

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you gotta love Luka for disfusing an intense situation.

to answer the statement you made (which seems way back) about civil unrest. are you saying a protest is unfair? ill admit im quite a radical socialist in some aspects and you said the destruction of someones income or business. well in my mind, targets would be what you are annoyed at, the government. im a naive idealest i know bit its my views.

England may not have many visual signs of an identity, but i believe that almost all english people know what it takes to be an englishman/women. as mitchymo said, bravery, humour whilst a blurred history, still a proud one noetheless. the reason the english are less visual about it, IMO, as so called "top-dogs" in Britain, there is less need to. the Irish and Scottish and Welsh need it as otherwise they would just become english clones.
 
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798686

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That`s because, we, the EASTERN EUROPEANS hear a lot about your GREAT country in school!:biggrin1:
Fuck, i wonna go to London:wink:

Awww. :tongue: Good ol' Luka! You can join the EU anytime man!!! :D
 
S

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The English are under an identity crisis at present.

What is it to be English and what rights does that entitle you to in England?

Sadly, very little to nothing any more.

This results in a hostility to other nationalities in your country. If you're finding it hard to survive in your own country despite working hard and being above board, it's easy to see how you would resent foreigners for being seemingly favoured, given help and exception by the government and the general system.

And the ever growing prevalence and acceptance of chav culture, the removal of celebration of English customs like St. Georges day on racist grounds and bingo... one great recipe for identity crises for your average Joe.

It's my fear that England is not far from a growing undercurrent of civil unrest. The more the national identity is repressed and forced to accommodate other customs and cultures above it's own, the greater the danger some nut from the BNP or such will gain the favour, even power... dare I say it, a civil war?

England, the English identity is seemingly lost.

Say what you like about the Americans, God's know we do, but they do have one great sense of national identity. All peoples in America have to swear allegiance to the country, there are some societies that are second and third generation born in England that do not consider them selves to be English because of it, favouring either religion as their nationality or the nationality of the forefathers. This is plain wrong to me.
That simply isn't true,most people in this this country will know that the ethnic makeup from overseas is barely 6% so we are hardly threatened by the numbers.People, however,will complain about issues they don't agree with,that's only natural and what free speech is about.The fault lies with the media in this country who are always 'stirring the pot'.I think the British have always had a very strong sense of identity and I believe it's as strong as ever.Afterall we rarely,if ever, take our cue from polititians or the pc brigade.