French

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

People thought it was slightly curious I could figure out something by reading it, but not very well if it was spoken.

Precisely my experience in French, Kal.

 

[fortiesfun]

There are less nuances in Quebec French (a little difficult to explain for beginners, but it's easier to translate into English).

I hope you will forgive a somewhat irreverent, but perfectly serious, question. Is your sexual persona the same when you express yourself in French as it is in English? Your, how shall I put it..., assertive style, seems particularly honed in English and untranslatable. Or is it? I'm always curious about those fluent in two or more languages because they often seem to be somewhat different people when they change languages.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I hope you will forgive a somewhat irreverent, but perfectly serious, question. Is your sexual persona the same when you express yourself in French as it is in English? Your, how shall I put it..., assertive style, seems particularly honed in English and untranslatable. Or is it? I'm always curious about those fluent in two or more languages because they often seem to be somewhat different people when they change languages.

Doc, I may be blowin' smoke here, but I think, FWIW, that Geo. Steiner in recent years wrote a book on this very topic, using his own polyglot self as the multi-persona'd subject.
Or maybe it was just an essay.
Can't find the title, though.

 

[2322]

I remember my grandfather saying that during WWII many GIs learned Japanese from their Japanese girlfriends. In doing so, the joke was on them because as they went about the country speaking Japanese, they were speaking with the intonation of women which is, apparently, very different from the manner of speech of men. I was told this caused no end of bemusement to the Japanese themselves.

 

[kalipygian]

I remember my grandfather saying that during WWII many GIs learned Japanese from their Japanese girlfriends. In doing so, the joke was on them because as they went about the country speaking Japanese, they were speaking with the intonation of women which is, apparently, very different from the manner of speech of men. I was told this caused no end of bemusement to the Japanese themselves.

I had noticed this about Japanese, men and women almost sound like they are speaking different languages, but have never read anything on it. I've wondered how different the vocabulary is.

 

[fortiesfun]

Doc, I may be blowin' smoke here, but I think, FWIW, that Geo. Steiner in recent years wrote a book on this very topic, using his own polyglot self as the multi-persona'd subject.
Or maybe it was just an essay.
Can't find the title, though.

I'll look for it. Sounds interesting. And just curious, is it about changing personas in general, or changing sexual ones, which is the point of my particular curiosity about Bull, because he is such a strong example. And if it isn't too personal, do you have experience in this realm?

I remember my grandfather saying that during WWII many GIs learned Japanese from their Japanese girlfriends. In doing so, the joke was on them because as they went about the country speaking Japanese, they were speaking with the intonation of women which is, apparently, very different from the manner of speech of men. I was told this caused no end of bemusement to the Japanese themselves.

This I know first hand from being an exchange student to Japan and learning, only after I got home, that I too perfectly imitated my host mother and spoke excellent, but very feminine, Japanese. Even more interesting to me is that is not how Japanese gay men distinguish themselves so I was not read as gay, I was read as "immature." Boys often mimic their mothers and teachers. They have to be taught to speak like "men," which is seen as maturation but is not contaminated with our sense of masculinity as sexuality.

 

[dongalong]

I learned to understand French quite quickly by watching French TV with a French to English dictionary handy, if you keep hearing a word or a phrase, look it up and learn it, you'll know 50% of common French within no time.
The best way to learn how to speak it is to live in the country or find a patient French speaker who will listen and correct you. Of course learning from books and CDs will help but only if you make the effort to repeat and understand what you learnt as often as possible afterwards.
Above all you mustn't be shy when you have the opportunity to speak to some French person, making mistakes is OK, and will encourage them to correct you.

 

[justmeincal]

I learned to understand French quite quickly by watching French TV with a French to English dictionary handy, if you keep hearing a word or a phrase, look it up and learn it, you'll know 50% of common French within no time.
The best way to learn how to speak it is to live in the country or find a patient French speaker who will listen and correct you. Of course learning from books and CDs will help but only if you make the effort to repeat and understand what you learnt as often as possible afterwards.
Above all you mustn't be shy when you have the opportunity to speak to some French person, making mistakes is OK, and will encourage them to correct you.

I didn't know I could read French until I saw your avatar :smile:

 

[Bbucko]

You've had a lot of excellent advice so far. The only thing I'll add is that a mastery of verbs is essential if you wish to get anywhere beyond "the hat is on the table" or "what's for dessert?". For that, you'll need books, because the tenses don't always have a direct French/English correlation.

I learned my grammar in school and am unfamiliar with what's out there in the form of self-study. Most every larger city has a branch of the Alliance Française, where you can learn in a class-room style with peers of your own level and encourage each other (which really helps).

Once you have a decent knowledge of the verbs, you can progress to comprehension, or as the French say, "getting the ear". You'll find that the clip of conversational Parisian French is really quick, and that the enunciation is rather slurry. Unlike English, proper French pronunciation is all about the vowels; it's not unusual for a word to have a consonant sound at the beginning and end with a succession of vowel sounds sandwiched in between. We're not used to hearing that, and it takes some adjustment.

FWIW, they find our grammar and pronunciation equally difficult. And it can burn that they are so strict as regards an incomprehensible accent while flaunting one of their own. But cracking the code brings you to a rare and beautiful place: I love the French and love Paris, as impossible as they can be (and I've seen some of the worst having lived there with a non-English speaking boyfriend).

In the end, foreign languages open the door to a different way of thinking, not just a different way of saying things.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I'll look for it. Sounds interesting. And just curious, is it about changing personas in general, or changing sexual ones, which is the point of my particular curiosity about Bull, because he is such a strong example.

Unless I'm just having a pipe dream, Steiner's book (essay?) is about sexual personae ... just what you were asking about.

And if it isn't too personal, do you have experience in this realm?

Yes, of sorts.
I think I clicked with francophone men, but did so before I could call myself a speaker even of rudimentary French.
Something about them ... a kind of romance about being human, a kind of palpable game about how to interact so that there was richness for everyone, a kind of benignly-offered joint head space that I recognized and could enter ... made me find francophones, women no less than men, delightful to converse with, share meals with, even have surprisingly animated arguments with.
The air could be charged with something palpably sexual, but not necessarily leading or intending to lead to anything physical.
In what may be other news, feeling and thought did not seem to occupy such separate realms as they do in the English-speaking countries. And here I often wondered if some of the explanation was to be found in the very sensuality of the language itself.
In France at least, to hear even a truck driver speaking was to hear something melodious and shaped and self-consciously conditioned by the wish to produce beauty.
I'm hazarding a guess that the language has shaped their attitude to all of life, as any language will do, but especially, more than most languages, to their approach to the amorous and explicitly sexual.
I can't say my French ever saturated my being to the degree that it was producing that same effect in me.
But in resonating with their personae, I picked up some of the effect.
For the record, in France at least, there seemed relatively more sexual bark than bite ... more dry phukh than actual pillow time.
Which I thought was well judged, since in sex, anticipation so often exceeds experience.
(To be sure, I haven't found a whole lot of people who know WTF I'm talkin' 'bout, Doc. Even francophiles think I'm goin' a bit overboard.)

 

[Simon8.5]

So I have it in my head to learn french, no clue why it just hit me that I want to learn it to know it. Anyone got any advice on the best way to learn it?

Move to Paris, live in the Marais, and take classes at the Sorbonne.

You'll be fluent in a jiffy.

Just about anywhere else, even awful attempts at speaking the local language are appreciated by the local population. That is not frequently the case in France and certainly not in Paris. The French will quickly correct you, become frustrated with your impudent attempt to speak their language, and begin prattling away in English just to cut the time they have to deal with you.

While that may be occasionally true in Paris it's never been my experience - and certainly it's not in the countryside. Any effort to speak the language no matter the level of fluency is indulged and appreciated.

 

[Mr. Snakey]

I love french.

 

[MrGoodDate]

Been to France often. The people are wonderful. If they know you want to learn they will help. My advise stay out of Paris,,,, its like NYC, not USA.
But do remember the French have good manners so practice that a bit yourself.

 

[Gl3nn]

Why stay out of Paris? It's a beautiful city with great museums and nice architecture.

I'd say, if you're in France, definitely go to Paris

 

[BIGBULL29]

But do remember the French have good manners so practice that a bit yourself.

I lived in France, too, and I liked it.

Yep, the French have good table manners and are very reserved in public, but often stink to high heaven. BO is sometimes so atrocious at times with men and women.... I would prefer a little less fine dining and better hygiene.:biggrin1:

 

[BIGBULL29]

I'm been studying French linguistics for many years. I know all the ins-and-outs about the language (nuances and stuff that most of you probably wouldn't be interested in).

French usually prefers abstraction to simplicity in expression. But that doesn't make French more difficult than English. To speak either language fluently and correctly is a quite a feat.

Examples:

French has gender and numerical agreements, but a more simplified verbal system than English. Very few non-native speakers ever really master our tenses.

Also, in reference to verb tenses, there are a few tenses in French that carry a different meaning than their English counterparts in certain contexts, but can easily be learned (a few more exceptions with tenses in formal documents and all the literary tenses which are never used).

French is more "regular" than English in many ways (I can't explain all this here, but it's true)


To fortiesfun: I feel that I can be just as agressive in French as English. In fact, sometimes, I feel less restricted to express myself. Because the way my natural personality mixes with French society and culture, I generally feel less repressed speaking with French people than Anglo-Saxons.

 

[dongalong]

I lived in France, too, and I liked it.

Yep, the French have good table manners and are very reserved in public, but often stink to high heaven. BO is sometimes so atrocious at times with men and women.... I would prefer a little less fine dining and better hygiene.:biggrin1:

LOL, unfortunately that is SO true, especially during summer in the Paris Metro!
Most French don't smell bad, fortunately.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Move to Paris, live in the Marais, and take classes at the Sorbonne.

You'll be fluent in a jiffy.



While that may be occasionally true in Paris it's never been my experience - and certainly it's not in the countryside. Any effort to speak the language no matter the level of fluency is indulged and appreciated.

Has no one banned you yet, Stronzo??

Good grief - things are getting slack around here.

OP - don't listen to this man - he can't speak French to save his life. He was probably indulged because he was throwing money about in return for sexual favours.

 

[BIGBULL29]

LOL, unfortunately that is SO true, especially during summer in the Paris Metro!
Most French don't smell bad, fortunately.

I was in Bordeaux during the summer months. The men and boys on the bus! It was really bad. I'm not saying that just for the sake of saying it. Even some of the girls... (but men were worse)

And bad breath from the cheese...

Cleanliness is just not godliness in France (unlike the Puritans in the US and the Japanese):biggrin1:

 

[MarkLondon]

Lol, the Parisiennes? Even the French hate them. Though as a Londoner, I have no problems with their detachment.

You get a lot of kudos for saying "bonjour messieurs-dames" when you enter a shop or room in the provinces.