Gay ...THINGS?!

[Joseph]

Hello there, there is something I’ve noticed lately… I think it’s unarguable that we sadly live in a society where homosexuality is not being tolerated and homosexuals cannot openly speak about their orientation without being judged for it. We still have a long way to go before we reach absolute tolerance.

Yes, it’s no surprise many homosexuals wish to be accepted and tolerated and not having to hide away who they are…. HOWEVER I did notice a type of attitude, which seems to lead to the opposite of acceptance and tolerance.

I noticed that SOME (please underline that I said SOME and not ALL) homosexuals seem to have this obsession with things that are specifically gay. Starting with gay bars… gay magazines, gay TV channels, gay fashion……. Now I don’t mind their existence, let them be, but I have some doubts…
Sure, already the fact such things are allowed to exist is a sign that there’s more tolerance, however I get the feeling that by doing such things rather creates borders rather than demolishing them.

A lot of people protest against the fact homosexuals are not allowed to marry, but even should they be allowed to marry and even should they have the same laws as heterosexual couples, the mere fact their relationship would be called a “partnership” rather than marriage would already cause people to protest. And I agree, if these relationships are equal then they deserve to be called the same way… However if gay people desire so much to be equal, why do such gay bars etc keep popping up like mushrooms after rain? Should there be straight bars soon too?

Perhaps I’m being naïve, but if I was homosexual (I’m bi) I don’t think I would go around looking for things with the word GAY on them. I wouldn’t look for a product, channel or facility established for people of my sexuality! I would do, take, use, watch whatever I feel like! Just like I do now! Be it a magazine for straight or gay guys, I still don’t find it immediately appealing (in both cases it’s even Unappealing to me).

Before writing this thread of course I contacted my homosexual friends whom also agreed with me that it’s paradoxal and slightly hypocritical to desire equality while at the same time pushing oneself away from it.

Perhaps I just can’t understand how one can consider sexuality “a life style”. I still I am a human being with a complex psyche and personality constructed from various aspects like feelings, taste, knowledge, experience, hobbies etc and even if I were to pick one single of those things to determine how I talk, look, what I watch, read, play, do …. It certainly wouldn’t be my sexuality.

I’d like to once again point out that I don’t mind people acting like this, it’s their choice, but I just can’t imagine myself acting like this and find it awkward. My gay friends also agreed with me on this topic and so I decided to write a thread about it and hoped for some more comments on this subject. Do you agree with me that it’s odd and perhaps counterproductive or… am I a big homophobe for questioning this matter (guess that makes my GAY FRIENDS even bigger homophobes….).

Anyways thank you for your attention!

 

[Symphonic]

Ah, so you've found the conundrum of Identity and Acceptance. Such is life; there are things far older with the same efforts being routed by the efforts themselves.

 

[mitchymo]

It is temporary, in the future we shall all be bisexual i'm sure.

 

[scottredleter]

Maybe it's because so many gay people grow up being so different that when you get a chance to be around a whole community of people who understand who you are, it becomes very reassuring. As far as your question if there should be 'straight TV'... My answer is that straight TV is everything that ever came before any version of Gay TV. I think it's easy today to forget that it wasn't that long ago that gay was a very scary thing to be in America or the world. I'm in my 40's, and I know people who used to have elaborate security measures to avoid being arrested for being in a gay bar. they would be paired off as lesbian and gay man couples. Once in the bar they could socialize with who ever they wanted to, but if the lights flashed they would pair up with one another so it looked like a regular straight bar when they were raided.
I'm glad to see that more and more, I go out to clubs or bars with friends and they are just bars. There's a real relaxation of some of the old fears and hate. and a much more mixed atmosphere. I love it, but that doesn't mean that I want to dissolve myself into the 'straight world.' I want my gay communities. and as much as I love my straight friends, they will never be able to replace a good night out or good gaycation with a bunch of my gay friends. I think we can choose all of the above.

 

[Darkriff]

I have to agree with ya OP. Before I go any further, for those that may take me the wrong way, ur idiots, this isnt gay bashing on my part. Anyway, I agree that its counter-productive. You cant have it both ways. If you want equality then fight for that. The wrong way to go about it is to further segregate the gay community by "giving them what the want so thell leave us straight folks alone". IMO, the best way to go about it is to involve these issues and the overall gay subject into what some would call "straight media." Then theres nothing else to turn towards. As long as theres a separation and an option, people will go one way or the other, IE; gays watching the gay channel and straighs watching the "straight" channel. In all forms albeit books, movies, radio, w/e, should have both perspectives. Just my opinion tho.

 

[Gnothiseauton]

Joseph, first off, we live in different parts of the world, so I can't speak for things and attitudes on your end.

But I am VERY surprized to hear that you think that gay bars will bring about straight bars next. I mean, at least in western Europe and North America, ALL bars are by very definition straight unless otherwise stated. So the fact that there are gay bars doesn't mean straight ones are to come next, no! Gay bars are here BECAUSE all others are straight. When you are repressed or oppressed everywhere you go, and every club or bar you walk in is intolerant of two guys dancing and openly kissing, then what else do you expect than for the gay community to form havens for them to be able to do just so. And if you disagree with me about how all bars are straight, then think of this: if two women were to kiss and dance together in a random club, what would the guys think of it or do?

I don't think you and your friends are homophobes, but I do think you you have a level of internalized heteronormativity, and are to say the least oblivious to certain things.

I radically disagree with you and some of the above posters that this is in any way an entrenching issue, that makes the possiblility of equal recognition and acceptance more diffucult. Here in the US, you have Asian american bars, African American bars and many more population specific clubs. Why is having gay bars any different? It's just a social opportunity for those who think alike to get together in a welcoming atmosphere.

I simply and utterly don't understand how you could think that it might not be an ok thing for gays to have specialized social and media venues when all other minorities have the same. Just go to your nearest Magazine stand, and you'll see magazines specific to everything under the sun! Why is it so bad for gays to have the same?

WHY?

To Darkriff: I don't take too kindly to being insulted by being called and idiot. And yes it would be awesome to see gay content on "straight channels", but do you seriously think that Fox would ever do such a thing? Again, so called gay channels didn't emerge out of the sheer desire to be seperatist. they emerged because right-winged stations like Fox would rather see them gone all together, so we had to make sure and be seen.

 

[Symphonic]

I have to agree with ya OP. Before I go any further, for those that may take me the wrong way, ur idiots, this isnt gay bashing on my part. Anyway, I agree that its counter-productive. You cant have it both ways. If you want equality then fight for that. The wrong way to go about it is to further segregate the gay community by "giving them what the want so thell leave us straight folks alone". IMO, the best way to go about it is to involve these issues and the overall gay subject into what some would call "straight media." Then theres nothing else to turn towards. As long as theres a separation and an option, people will go one way or the other, IE; gays watching the gay channel and straighs watching the "straight" channel. In all forms albeit books, movies, radio, w/e, should have both perspectives. Just my opinion tho.

Ah, the Myth of Equality; let us be honest with ourselves as persons first and foremost shall we? Outside of the civic circles where is Equality? It is nowhere! From feuds of yesteryear to quarrels of the times upon us the only Equality to ever be achieved lies in the law and the civic world. Civility in and of itself is simply not required in the social sphere, though preferred, and the world cannot and will not be all encompassing for the simple reason that you cannot be for and against yourself at the same time and succeed.

Exposure, forced or otherwise, to other cultures does not create bonds without effort from the individual in question. There's absolutely nothing wrong with "gay media" and it is not a backwards notion either; to be able to recognize and identify as yourself whilst also realizing yourself as part of a greater conglomerate and that portion the same is important for mental health.

Long and short you cannot tell the women they will only be equal when they embrace what the men like, and vice versa.

 

[Joseph]

I swear I didn't mean to offend anyone! I'm very sorry if I did.

I just thought it was weird ... at least to me, a person in a very conservative country....

I don't question the reason for the existence of gay bars! I do understand that there homosexual couples can hug and kiss all they want....

I guess I was all wrong, I'm sorry

 

[Symphonic]

That's so sad. You have the right to your opinion, well today anyway.

 

[Gnothiseauton]

Joseph, you have every right to your opinion and i welcome it. i simply don't see things your way is all...

 

[tickle123]

I kinda agree. I mean, it makes me sad that there is 'Gay Pride days' like.. you should be proud all the time. Not just one day of the year.

 

[Gnothiseauton]

I kinda agree. I mean, it makes me sad that there is 'Gay Pride days' like.. you should be proud all the time. Not just one day of the year.

So you're only thankful on thanksgiving, only ask for pardon on Yom Kippur, only visit Macy's on Macy's day parade, only feel patriotic on Independence day, only honor veterens on memorial day... That's ABSURD!!!!!!! Of course we feel proud every day! We just have a huge bash about it one day a year like everything else! And the only reason different cities have it on different days is because no president has had enough balls to declare a day for homosexuals, transgendered, intersexed and all the other "queers" yet.

 

[D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III]

Hello there, there is something I’ve noticed lately… I think it’s unarguable that we sadly live in a society where homosexuality is not being tolerated and homosexuals cannot openly speak about their orientation without being judged for it. We still have a long way to go before we reach absolute tolerance.

Yes, it’s no surprise many homosexuals wish to be accepted and tolerated and not having to hide away who they are…. HOWEVER I did notice a type of attitude, which seems to lead to the opposite of acceptance and tolerance.

I noticed that SOME (please underline that I said SOME and not ALL) homosexuals seem to have this obsession with things that are specifically gay. Starting with gay bars… gay magazines, gay TV channels, gay fashion……. Now I don’t mind their existence, let them be, but I have some doubts…
Sure, already the fact such things are allowed to exist is a sign that there’s more tolerance, however I get the feeling that by doing such things rather creates borders rather than demolishing them.

A lot of people protest against the fact homosexuals are not allowed to marry, but even should they be allowed to marry and even should they have the same laws as heterosexual couples, the mere fact their relationship would be called a “partnership” rather than marriage would already cause people to protest. And I agree, if these relationships are equal then they deserve to be called the same way… However if gay people desire so much to be equal, why do such gay bars etc keep popping up like mushrooms after rain? Should there be straight bars soon too?

Perhaps I’m being naïve, but if I was homosexual (I’m bi) I don’t think I would go around looking for things with the word GAY on them. I wouldn’t look for a product, channel or facility established for people of my sexuality! I would do, take, use, watch whatever I feel like! Just like I do now! Be it a magazine for straight or gay guys, I still don’t find it immediately appealing (in both cases it’s even Unappealing to me).

Before writing this thread of course I contacted my homosexual friends whom also agreed with me that it’s paradoxal and slightly hypocritical to desire equality while at the same time pushing oneself away from it.

Perhaps I just can’t understand how one can consider sexuality “a life style”. I still I am a human being with a complex psyche and personality constructed from various aspects like feelings, taste, knowledge, experience, hobbies etc and even if I were to pick one single of those things to determine how I talk, look, what I watch, read, play, do …. It certainly wouldn’t be my sexuality.

I’d like to once again point out that I don’t mind people acting like this, it’s their choice, but I just can’t imagine myself acting like this and find it awkward. My gay friends also agreed with me on this topic and so I decided to write a thread about it and hoped for some more comments on this subject. Do you agree with me that it’s odd and perhaps counterproductive or… am I a big homophobe for questioning this matter (guess that makes my GAY FRIENDS even bigger homophobes….).

Anyways thank you for your attention!

by societys standards a guy whio is bi is gay, so answer the question yourself. you're walking down the street with your boyfreind and someone yells hey faggot. what are you going to do turn around and say your bi? they'll laugh at you.

 

[Darkriff]

To Gnot, *sigh* ignorance is bliss my friend. Reread what I said, I didnt spurt out, "HEY EVERYONE HERE IS AN IDIOT!" But for u I stand corrected. To Symphonic; I agree. I never said that forcing it would make things right. I also agree that you cant please everyone. I dont find anything wrong with gay media myself, my commentd were more directed tiwards those that beg for equality above all else. No system,...nothing, is perfect. That was my opinion as to one of MANY possible solutions geared towards individuals considering that a problem. But as far as my own opinion all around, I agree with u whole heartedly. Back to Gnot, I did no such thing as call u an idiot. Do not misread what I write then blow up on me. Keep in mind that you are READING and not LISTENING to what somewhat has said. A persons tone says alot about what they mean, not just the words.

 

[Joseph]

Joseph, you have every right to your opinion and i welcome it. i simply don't see things your way is all...

Thanks, but I think I really messed up.
:frown1: I put things the wrong way.

I talked about things I have no idea about... I hurt people's feelings, sorry. I should have kept all to myself instead of like a fool jumping head on into something with an idiotic grin.

Right now I think of deleting the thread and never talking about it again.

 

[invisibleman]

Hello there, there is something I’ve noticed lately… I think it’s unarguable that we sadly live in a society where homosexuality is not being tolerated and homosexuals cannot openly speak about their orientation without being judged for it. We still have a long way to go before we reach absolute tolerance.

There is always someone in the world that is ridiculed and ostracized. When everyone gets a break...we will get tolerance. But I doubt that people are absolutely tolerant.

Yes, it’s no surprise many homosexuals wish to be accepted and tolerated and not having to hide away who they are…. HOWEVER I did notice a type of attitude, which seems to lead to the opposite of acceptance and tolerance.

I noticed that SOME (please underline that I said SOME and not ALL) homosexuals seem to have this obsession with things that are specifically gay. Starting with gay bars… gay magazines, gay TV channels, gay fashion……. Now I don’t mind their existence, let them be, but I have some doubts…

It is nice to have labels. How would you know where you are and who you are with?
I would like to know the places and people I am with---if only narrowly defined by a label.


Sure, already the fact such things are allowed to exist is a sign that there’s more tolerance, however I get the feeling that by doing such things rather creates borders rather than demolishing them.

I think that you have to have labels first to first get to know them and to learn tolerance.

A lot of people protest against the fact homosexuals are not allowed to marry, but even should they be allowed to marry and even should they have the same laws as heterosexual couples, the mere fact their relationship would be called a “partnership” rather than marriage would already cause people to protest. And I agree, if these relationships are equal then they deserve to be called the same way… However if gay people desire so much to be equal, why do such gay bars etc keep popping up like mushrooms after rain? Should there be straight bars soon too?

Well, you that is the distinction...you don't have to say that a certain bar is a straight bar. But you have to know if it is a gay bar, lesbian bar, or mixed clientele bar.

Perhaps I’m being naïve, but if I was homosexual (I’m bi) I don’t think I would go around looking for things with the word GAY on them. I wouldn’t look for a product, channel or facility established for people of my sexuality! I would do, take, use, watch whatever I feel like! Just like I do now! Be it a magazine for straight or gay guys, I still don’t find it immediately appealing (in both cases it’s even Unappealing to me).

I feel the same way in the following views. GAY. AFRICAN-AMERICAN. MALE GENDER. I am a black guy who is gay. But I don't really like Madonna, drag queen culture and the hyperclub culture which is associated with the "trendy" gay community. I don't like gangsta rap music and urban contemporary R&B which is associated with African-Americans. I don't like the stupid rites of passages and assumptions of what makes a man a man in society.

I also don't agree with peer pressures from both gays and African-Americans to do street drugs in order to try and fit in. Or try to be something that I am not, in order to fit in a male sort of way.

I want to find my own definition and define who I am as a gay black guy.



Before writing this thread of course I contacted my homosexual friends whom also agreed with me that it’s paradoxal and slightly hypocritical to desire equality while at the same time pushing oneself away from it.


But then again some gay peeps, black peeps, and men aren't very tolerant folks either.

Perhaps I just can’t understand how one can consider sexuality “a life style”.

BUT THEY DO CONSIDER AND WILL LET YOU KNOW.

I still I am a human being with a complex psyche and personality constructed from various aspects like feelings, taste, knowledge, experience, hobbies etc and even if I were to pick one single of those things to determine how I talk, look, what I watch, read, play, do …. It certainly wouldn’t be my sexuality.

I like differences. Doing different things. I am not that way with the men I want to have sex with though. But I think that people are complicated at times...even though some feel that they aren't. We all are complicated. I know I am.

I’d like to once again point out that I don’t mind people acting like this, it’s their choice, but I just can’t imagine myself acting like this and find it awkward. My gay friends also agreed with me on this topic and so I decided to write a thread about it and hoped for some more comments on this subject. Do you agree with me that it’s odd and perhaps counterproductive or… am I a big homophobe for questioning this matter (guess that makes my GAY FRIENDS even bigger homophobes….).

Anyways thank you for your attention!

I don't think that you are homophobic.

 

[lasolasbud]

Unfortunately, your perspective is localized. Living in Boston homosexuality is cool and sometimes boring. Gay men and women along with their children live in suburbia. Gone are the days of feeling cool because you know a gay person. Bars and night clubs are mostly gone, everything is integrated. Homosexuals marry, have children, and cheat on one another, divorce and have custody battles and fight over alimony. They are just like heterosexual couples, who sit and watch their children grow reminiscing of day’s gone bye. Be careful what you wish for. Marriage or Partnership no matter what you call it; a few years down the road it ends the same way. Welcome to the world of the Divorce, Homo Style, and the fight for your car, summer home, and your bank account.

 

[Cowabanga]

I'm a straight guy, and I was with my GF and my co-worker who was gay, who invited me to bring her to a bar with him. It was my first time in a gay bar, and I didn't know what to expect, but I was curious. I had a much better time with my GF at this bar than I did at a straight bar. I didn't see the typical macho cock blocking of guys that was jealous of me for my GF. She also had a great time, that for awhile we started to go the that bar until we moved away. My co-worker was also a former Marine, so if there were trouble, they have to get by him.

Everyone seems to be a lot friendlier, and I dont think because I was the guy, but I think when you are suppress that you dont take for granted with friendly faces that are willing to come into the bar.

If I had my way, I would call them "Open Bar", because it was a place where everyone was welcome, and tolerants of all kinds.

 

[Cowabanga]

Unfortunately, your perspective is localized. Living in Boston homosexuality is cool and sometimes boring. Gay men and women along with their children live in suburbia. Gone are the days of feeling cool because you know a gay person. Bars and night clubs are mostly gone, everything is integrated. Homosexuals marry, have children, and cheat on one another, divorce and have custody battles and fight over alimony. They are just like heterosexual couples, who sit and watch their children grow reminiscing of day’s gone bye. Be careful what you wish for. Marriage or Partnership no matter what you call it; a few years down the road it ends the same way. Welcome to the world of the Divorce, Homo Style, and the fight for your car, summer home, and your bank account.

Yes, what better argument for gay marriages! Lawyers should be supporting this notion!

 

[LilNubi]

Hey Joseph,

I don't think you need to apologize. I think that asking questions about other cultural/social/ethinc groups we're not familiar with is the only way we'll ever find common ground and understanding. It encourages dialogue and empathy. You raised a lot of interesting issues. I'd like to comment on your ideas regarding gay-themed bars and media.

In college, I had mostly straight friends and spent most of my time in regular, straight bars. No big deal, and I had fun and enjoyed myself. However, sometimes my level of comfort would be threatened when people who may not be as accepting of gay people would make it known that they were aware of my presence. When you mix alcohol and possible peer pressure into the mix, this can be scary. I'll add that, though I am very outgoing and could probably be described as effusive, I'm very respectful of others and unless engaged by another person outside of my friends, minded my own business. Unfortunately, they may not stop people from being, at best, rude and at worst, cruel or violent.

I started going to gay bars more and more because I found that I was more comfortable. There was a level of safety (both physical and emotional) and security there that made socializing more relaxing. Also, being around people who shared your interests and had common experiences is something I think everyone can relate to. Lots of people go to sports bars because they have games on large screen TVs and people have mutual interest in the vibe going on there. I think gay bars are similar. Also, if your gay, single, and looking to meet other available single people, obviously a gay bar is more attractive to you. But I still frequent bars and establishments that aren't "gay" because I like to be around a more heterogenous crowd and various other reasons (location, music played, going out with staight female friends who want to flirt with guys, or staight male friends who wouldn't be so comfortable at a gay bar, especially the attractive ones :wink

When it comes to other things like networks, magazines, etc, I think they exist for the same reason. You want to go to one source where your interests and common ideas can be found and spotlighted in one place. The same reason why more conservative people may enjoy the Wall Street Journal and more liberal minded folks may read The New York Times. But really, I think the reason they exist is primarily economic. Someone knows they can make money by offering a product that will be attractive to a certain demographic, who may not spend money on the more generic brand. Pre-Stonewall, most, if not all, the gay bars in New York City were owned by the mafia (and I'm not talking about the "gay mafia") because they could make money from a group of people who wanted to get together, drink, and socialize but couldn't do so openly in society. I'm not saying companies that own gay bars and media are the mafia, but the idea of how to make money are the same. Creating products for special interests makes money.

I think The Advocate exists for the same reason that Maxim, Cosmopolitan, Sports Illustrated, Shape, Muscle and Fitness, Rolling Stone, and BusinessWeek exist. There's a LOGO, just like there's Spike TV, Lifetime, Turner Classic Movies, and Sci Fi (excuse me, SyFy!). I do find it interesting that some magazines, like Details, seem to transcend the whole gay/straight thing and focus on general male interests, and I love that. Hopefully, that's the direction we're going in the media. But I like having choice and diversity, too.

Joseph, I wasn't offended by your post. I didn't think you were disrespectful or hurtful in any way. It raised some questions and made me think about some things I hadn't considered.