Infidelity, a question.

[Drifterwood]

Stop judging people by your own standards.

I'm not. I was only referring to those who come on here and say how awful their monogamous sex lives are.

And stop starting rumours that I have standards. :tongue:

 

[B_subgirrl]

Also, you report that "the sex of monogamy [...] is at best infrequent and mediocre"

I must have skimmed over that part or I would have argued it. I'd like to think there's at least some hope for any future monogamous relationships I have.

 

[helgaleena]

The trouble with being cheated on is that it makes a person look stupid for getting fooled into thinking things were one way when they really were another way. In the instance I was referring to, I had no problem with the lack of monogamy going on because I hadn't expected any. What I expected was to be included in any fun. And it hurt quite a bit to realize I was being judged behind my back as not fun-worthy.

Another time it was the same. I was trying out monogamy but instead of telling me I was not pleasing him, the coward snuck away to another first before letting me know there was even a problem. That hurt because it showed that I was not worth even the courtesy of honesty! And easy to fool as well. What got hurt most was my pride.

Infidelity is in the eye of the beholder, but in any relationship seeing eye to eye makes all the difference. Hiding things from one another is poison.

 

[Drifterwood]

Because they're too stupid to realise that their partner would have cheated anyway - that it had nothing to do with who he/she was cheating with?

I'm not convinced. I think that there is an element of "you have taken something that is mine.

I think it is not so much about taking ownership of the person. It is more that it signifies that the person has some kind of a relationship with us. Without the 'my', the words just become random nouns.

I just use people's names

That's what makes it so valuable to some when they DO find it. Whether or not we SHOULD trust in it is another question.

What about those who want to enforce it even when they haven't really found "it" or lost "it" but stay together? I have seen imposed sexual monogamy/fidelity used as a tool of control. I wonder what Patchos would have to say on this?


Interesting. Why didn't you care? Is it because you didn't love the person? Or was it just that you separate sex and love so well that you realised that only sex had been shared, and therefore you weren't upset? Or was it something else?

I loved some and not others. The real thing going on was that we knew we weren't looking for life partners, we were having fun, whilst pursuing careers. People's lives were in constant flux, sometimes you just need a good fuck.

I'd love to be able to have the second view on sex outside of relationships. It's what my logic-brain agrees with. But when it comes down to it, my emotions get in the way.

As MB said, you can have a great relationship and lousy sex; I would add that you can have a lousy relationship and great sex. But that isn't supposed to be the way is it?

Emotions drive the growth of a relationship IME. I am not sure whether it is nurture or nature that mixes sex bonding with relationship building, personally I know that I have some great relationships with no sex and great sex with no relationship.

 

[AlteredEgo]

But what has who puts what organ where got to do with trust?

Who puts what organ where is a known and expressed condition of being with me and receiving whatever he finds beneficial from having this relationship with me. In our relationship, therefore, it has a lot to do with trust.

 

[Drifterwood]

Who puts what organ where is a known and expressed condition of being with me and receiving whatever he finds beneficial from having this relationship with me. In our relationship, therefore, it has a lot to do with trust.

I have never made such a condition, and I am not aware that anyone has made it a condition on me, but several have presumed it. It's why so many presume it that interests me, other than the OP which was about something else altogether .

 

[ManlyBanisters]

As MB said, you can have a great relationship and lousy sex; I would add that you can have a lousy relationship and great sex. But that isn't supposed to be the way is it?

Where does 'supposed to' come into it? What does that even mean in this context?

I have never made such a condition, and I am not aware that anyone has made it a condition on me, but several have presumed it. It's why so many presume it that interests me, other than the OP which was about something else altogether .

That is the societal norm at the moment - I think it unreasonable, even though it is what I choose for myself, that monogamy is the default assumption for a relationship. It should always be an explicitly discussed joint decision.

 

[AlteredEgo]

I have never made such a condition, and I am not aware that anyone has made it a condition on me, but several have presumed it. It's why so many presume it that interests me, other than the OP which was about something else altogether .

You know, I can't tell you why so many people do not actually speak out loud to each other about their relationships. I always, when pondering this, think about my friend who would constantly ask me if her "boyfriend" loved her. I'd tell her, "No, I don't think he does, but you should definitely ask him if you need to know." She probably also should have asked him if he was her boyfriend. The answer to that question was also no. I like to talk about everything, sometimes over and over. I just like to be clear. I have been told here that my idea of a pre-sex talk isn't sexy. That's true, it's not always sexy (sometimes it is). However, when I'm satisfied, I know whether or not it is an acceptable physical risk to proceed, what would happen if we conceived, a lot of what he or she likes sexually, whether or not it is a future possibility that there will be more than sex between us, and I like knowing these things in advance. Similarly, if I am going to enter a relationship, there are things I need my partner to know, and accept, and I want to know and accept his stuff too.

I don't believe I have ever presumed that a partner knew my expectations when he didn't. My ex will probably disagree with that statement. However, I did tell him very early on what I wanted from him, and I even gave him status updates as my needs changed, and my wants changed, and I reminded him of those things which stayed the same. He just has a shitty memory. He'll cop to that much.

 

[AlteredEgo]

I think it unreasonable, even though it is what I choose for myself, that monogamy is the default assumption for a relationship. It should always be an explicitly discussed joint decision.

Absofuckinglutely.

 

[Drifterwood]

You know, I can't tell you why so many people do not actually speak out loud to each other about their relationships. I always, when pondering this, think about my friend who would constantly ask me if her "boyfriend" loved her. I'd tell her, "No, I don't think he does, but you should definitely ask him if you need to know." She probably also should have asked him if he was her boyfriend. The answer to that question was also no. I like to talk about everything, sometimes over and over. I just like to be clear. I have been told here that my idea of a pre-sex talk isn't sexy. That's true, it's not always sexy (sometimes it is). However, when I'm satisfied, I know whether or not it is an acceptable physical risk to proceed, what would happen if we conceived, a lot of what he or she likes sexually, whether or not it is a future possibility that there will be more than sex between us, and I like knowing these things in advance. Similarly, if I am going to enter a relationship, there are things I need my partner to know, and accept, and I want to know and accept his stuff too.

I don't believe I have ever presumed that a partner knew my expectations when he didn't. My ex will probably disagree with that statement. However, I did tell him very early on what I wanted from him, and I even gave him status updates as my needs changed, and my wants changed, and I reminded him of those things which stayed the same. He just has a shitty memory. He'll cop to that much.

Mmmh well. I hope these pre sex talks happen out at dinner rather than in bed. It is a universal law that contracts are not binding on men with hard ons.

You have given me an idea for a thread :wink:

 

[Drifterwood]

Where does 'supposed to' come into it? What does that even mean in this context?

The default position, or rather what I constantly hear, is that sex is better when emotionally attached, and/or in a relationship. This has not necessarily been my experience, personally and in as much as I can speak for the people I have had sex with.

 

[AlteredEgo]

Mmmh well. I hope these pre sex talks happen out at dinner rather than in bed. It is a universal law that contracts are not binding on men with hard ons.

You have given me an idea for a thread :wink:

I am pleased to inspire you. No, no these talks determine if we even get to the bed. Rarely, I have had to have this discussion after getting horizontal, which is just as hard on me. Once, maybe twice, I have had this talk naked. I know for sure the talk is pointless at that point. By then, no matter how my questions are answered, Dude's getting laid. The decision was already made by hormones, and the conversation is just a formality.

 

[B_subgirrl]

I'm not convinced. I think that there is an element of "you have taken something that is mine.

I do think those who get angry at the third party are thinking this. But I think there's more to it. For the person who is cheating, it's rarely about the person they did it with. Usually if they were going to cheat, they would have cheated eventually anyway. So the ones who blame the third party firstly, have to see themselves as 'possessing' their partner, and secondly, have to be stupid enough to think that their partner only cheated because of the persuasion of the third party. They often entirely overlook the fact that their partner had every opportunity to say no and didn't. Their partner CHOSE to cheat. I think sometimes it's too hard for people to acknowledge this, so they blame the other party.

I just use people's names

I also use people's names if the person I'm talking to knows the significance of that person in my life. If they don't, I explain the relationship I have with the person, usually simply, but sometimes in a more complex way.

But this holds true for ALL people in my life. If I am talking to someone about my best friend, I don't just say, 'E said . . .' or 'I went out with E . . .', when they don't know who E is. Instead I say, 'My friend, E, said . . .' My intention is to explain my relationship with E and put things in context, not to say 'E is MY friend, hands off'.

Although I have met people who drop possessive's into every sentence. The one's where you think 'I know he's your bloody boyfriend, shut the fuck up about it'!

What about those who want to enforce it even when they haven't really found "it" or lost "it" but stay together? I have seen imposed sexual monogamy/fidelity used as a tool of control. I wonder what Patchos would have to say on this?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'used as a tool of control'. I have no problem with people saying 'I require monogamy, and sex outside the relationship is a deal breaker for me' (ie. you only sleep with me or I'm getting rid of you). We all have our deal breakers.

I loved some and not others. The real thing going on was that we knew we weren't looking for life partners, we were having fun, whilst pursuing careers. People's lives were in constant flux, sometimes you just need a good fuck.

If that's what works for you, great. I think that kind of relationship is fine if everyone is honest (and uses protection!).

As MB said, you can have a great relationship and lousy sex; I would add that you can have a lousy relationship and great sex. But that isn't supposed to be the way is it?

I agree with both of these. I also agree that it 'isn't the way it's supposed to be'. Going by the looks and comments I get when I say that love and sex are entirely separate things and that you can easily have good sex without love and vice versa, I'm guessing we're supposed to say that sex is better with someone you love.

 

[B_subgirrl]

I have never made such a condition, and I am not aware that anyone has made it a condition on me, but several have presumed it. It's why so many presume it that interests me, other than the OP which was about something else altogether .

I don't quite get where the assuming comes from either. Assuming caused some problems between myself and an ex-FB. For about six months we weren't at all monogamous. Then one day we had a conversation about how we would each feel if the other had sex with someone else. We each said we would be jealous. End of conversation.

About eight months later, I started telling him about a MFM experience I'd just had, and he got mad! APPARENTLY, we were supposed to be being monogamous. This was news to me. APPARENTLY, his interpretation of the jealousy conversation was that we weren't going to have sex with others anymore. Whereas I'd taken the conversation on face value - neither of us had mentioned not fucking others, so as far as I was concerned, nothing had changed. Seriously, did he really think I would give up my sexual freedom in exchange for a monogamous FB relationship (not even a real relationship) and sex once a week? Apparently he did!

 

[D_Maurice Mountlilly]

i was angry at myself for believing her and believing in her

i felt the same way.but the STD risk made me mad as hell!
but what could i do but move on and get tested/treatment.

 

[LaFemme]

Being cheated on was one of the worst experiences of my life. And it was in a mutually agreed upon monogamous relationship; in his case however, he was lying.

It wasn't the sex that hurt me - it was the lie. To go back to the OP, what hurts was that he had someone else - he chose to fuck someone else and not provide me the courtesy of telling me he wanted to fuck others or end the relationship. It's the lie that hurt, and subsequently, I found out that almost everyone knew that he was screwing anything that moved....I felt stupid. Stupid and humiliated. Stupid to have loved him and stupid for continuing to love him. And I hated the women with whom he slept with - they were complicit in the lie when they knew he was already in a relationship.

That cheating changed me forever. I am less likely to believe and to trust. And it's not about the sex really - I am capable of open relationships where everything is out in the open. It's about deception.

 

[Drifterwood]

[/COLOR]
I do think those who get angry at the third party are thinking this. But I think there's more to it. For the person who is cheating, it's rarely about the person they did it with. Usually if they were going to cheat, they would have cheated eventually anyway. So the ones who blame the third party firstly, have to see themselves as 'possessing' their partner, and secondly, have to be stupid enough to think that their partner only cheated because of the persuasion of the third party. They often entirely overlook the fact that their partner had every opportunity to say no and didn't. Their partner CHOSE to cheat. I think sometimes it's too hard for people to acknowledge this, so they blame the other party.

You make a very good point. And, below, the mine mine mine syndrome does suggest this presumption of possession and I find it not uncommon.



Although I have met people who drop possessive's into every sentence. The one's where you think 'I know he's your bloody boyfriend, shut the fuck up about it'!

Agreed.


I'm not sure what you mean by 'used as a tool of control'. I have no problem with people saying 'I require monogamy, and sex outside the relationship is a deal breaker for me' (ie. you only sleep with me or I'm getting rid of you). We all have our deal breakers.

If that's what works for you, great. I think that kind of relationship is fine if everyone is honest (and uses protection!).

I agree with both of these. I also agree that it 'isn't the way it's supposed to be'. Going by the looks and comments I get when I say that love and sex are entirely separate things and that you can easily have good sex without love and vice versa, I'm guessing we're supposed to say that sex is better with someone you love.

I am lumping your last three points into one issue. That is the situation where "I am not going to work on this aspect of our relationship (because I don't want to, I don't have to), but if you go outside to satisfy those needs you have, then you are the bastard, you are the cheat, you are destroying this relationship and you will pay."

I am not talking about the people who just can't keep their pants on (men and women), but situations where people change, but don't change the rules. This is augmented by the difference between love and sex, as you say.

No one has yet said that their partner cheated because they did not pay attention to their partner's needs, they didn't show their love. I have heard a lot of women give this as the reason why they are cheating, whilst at the same time maintaining that they still love their partner, which incidentally, I happen to believe.

 

[AlteredEgo]

No one has yet said that their partner cheated because they did not pay attention to their partner's needs, they didn't show their love. I have heard a lot of women give this as the reason why they are cheating, whilst at the same time maintaining that they still love their partner, which incidentally, I happen to believe.

My maternal grandmother said that's why her husband cheated. She said she grew up without any affection, and didn't know how to show a man physically how she felt. She said she wasn't particularly interested in sex. So, she put him out of the house, and taught herself how to be very affectionate with their children, so they might not encounter the same problems when they grew up. I believe my touchy-feely nature is the product of her love. I was a very affectionate child, too much so for my mother. So my grandmother held me, and cuddled me and nuzzled me all I could want. She wanted to be sure the cycle was broken.

I think my father cheated on my mother because his own father was a flagrant cheat.

My ex cheated on me because he figured he could. He feels entitled to all the pussy he can fit into, and though he never wants to lose his safe, steady love, new romance will always hold an irresistible allure for him. He is capable neither of monogamy, nor honesty (with his current girlfriend) about this. He and I have discussed this many times. In fact, we talked about it last week, because he's planning on proposing to this poor woman any day now. He loves her very much. She's like me, and would never accept a sexual relationship which wasn't monogamous. I suggested to him that maybe she knows, just like I knew. The difference is I left him; she just stopped fucking him. I think she'll accept his proposal when he asks. They have a child.

Another ex, broke up with me because he didn't think he could handle monogamy. He said I was the first person he cared enough about to break up with rather than cheat on. Honestly, I think I was the first woman who wasn't phased by his collection of female friends. It drove him crazy that his time alone with them didn't make me angry. He confessed to inventing outings with girls just to piss me off. He was the one who ended up angry, because my response was to make plans with my friends, and ask him to call me to "tuck me in" whenever he got home. Once the sexual tension passed (for me anyway) we went back to being friends, and remained friends (while he dated a long string of strippers and emotionally unavailable women) until he was ready to start a family. Once he married, he called one last time, and made sure he told me I'd always be a part of him. When I called to wish him a happy birthday a few months later, all of his numbers had changed, and his myspace page was removed. From our conversations, I gleaned that he had become less inclined to play the field, and was happy to be with one woman only. He was a really good friend. I miss him.

I don't know that I would leave my husband if he cheated. He might leave me though. I'm really hard to be around when I'm angry. My paternal grandmother gave me very valid reasons why she chose to stay with my grandad even though he always had other women. I suppose my decision would depend on our phase of life at the time. I do know this: if he does his very best to hide it from me, and is extremely discreet, I will be happy to keep my suspicions to myself, to not snoop, to not look for the affair. As long as he doesn't treat me like an idiot, and as long as he can make me feel like I am the at the center of his joy, like he does today, I can cheerfully delude myself that everything is as we discussed. One thing my experience with my ex taught me is that I don't need to know what I'm happy not to know. Still, I'd rather we talk BEFORE any affair begins, and see what we can work out.

 

[Drifterwood]

One thing my experience with my ex taught me is that I don't need to know what I'm happy not to know. Still, I'd rather we talk BEFORE any affair begins, and see what we can work out.

If you are happy not to know, why would a partner discuss it with you? If I was in a monogamous relationship and I had to discuss this, I can't see that I would then go and do it. Why would I want to upset someone that I loved, when what you don't know doesn't harm you?

Discussion will actually stop the person doing it and the real net result of this might be that you would lose the person because of your preference for monogamy. This then is the question, can you force someone into a suit that doesn't fit?

 

[AlteredEgo]

If you are happy not to know, why would a partner discuss it with you? If I was in a monogamous relationship and I had to discuss this, I can't see that I would then go and do it. Why would I want to upset someone that I loved, when what you don't know doesn't harm you?

Discussion will actually stop the person doing it and the real net result of this might be that you would lose the person because of your preference for monogamy. This then is the question, can you force someone into a suit that doesn't fit?

I don't mind losing someone who isn't right for me. Clearly, they don't mind losing me either. It's not a good fit if we can't agree. At this particular point in my life, I believe I would prefer to be free to find someone who saw this issue the same way I do. This is why I say I'd rather talk about it, and see what we can work out. It's entirely possible that the only thing we could work out would be to go our own ways. On the other hand, if he chooses not to discuss it with me, he needs to go out of his way to keep me physically safe, and to protect our family from "scandal", save me from any embarrassment, and do his very best to keep his secrets secret. In other words, if it hasn't happened yet, let's talk. If it's already going on, I don;t want to know. Ever.