Doc, I think you misunderstand me. I'm speaking from my own experiences in the region as you are speaking from yours. I said that I was in Egypt for some years
ago I didn't say for how long
and I also didn't say I saw
no full-veiled woman, just fewer than I expected...same in Jordan, Lebanon etc.
I agree that many people in that region, men and women, want to see full-veiling to some degree or another, but few expressed the view at least to me, that it should be mandatory let alone enforced by brutality and believe it's not for them to force
their values on others, and before you say it, that's not what I'm doing; I'm not advocating abolition or imposition, I'm advocating
choice.
If you re-read what I said before accusing me, I did not say
'all' women (OK I perhaps I should have said
SOME women
) want to wear western clothes some or all the time, I don't speak for these women as you seem to. I'm stating my opinion based on what some people have told me, and what I have seen and read.
I also didn't say they should abandon their culture (please re-read what I said - I very clearly stated the opposite) and by inference '
run through the streets scantily clad' so please don't put words in my mouth. They may live in societies that to varying degrees oppress their rights in this and other ways but those are their cultures and it's not for us in the west to project our 'values' upon them, however tempting.
But does that mean they should knuckle under and 'tow the line' as you suggest in the face of oppression if it's not what they want?
With that attitude where do you think civil rights would be in the US for example, would Apartheid have fallen as soon
without outside pressure? There is a world of difference between abandoning one's culture and allowing gradual change
from within where it's desired, but that change should as a rule come from within.
Iraq is a salutary lesson in the futility of attempting to foist a western style democracy on a nation because it's the 'right thing to do' rather than because that's what the country wants. Apartheid
was an exception or are you suggesting the world should have stood on the sidelines and let SA sort it out itself? I appreciate it's a fine line sometimes, but there are times when you have to speak out. How wrong does something have to be before you do so is what I'm asking.
Some women want to retain the choice about what they wear that had under previous regimes, explicity granted/rule bending or not it did exist. Who are you (or I) to deny them that? Yes, their own culture imposes those values and it's that same culture that must relax or rescind them if that's what the members of said society desire.
I'm not on any high horse and the things I refer to have occurred there, elsewhere in the Muslim world and, sadly here in the UK. I didn't say it was the norm or happened all the time, you made
that inference on your own.
I could perhaps suggest you should take off your rose tinted spectacles and then perhaps we can discuss and maybe reach agreement that there are few if any absolutes in these situations. Doc, just because
you haven't seen something happen doesn't mean it
doesn't happen.
Accusing me of making 'ill informed nationalist' statements is not constructive and it certainly isn't accurate. To be honest I don't really understand the context..what's 'nationalist' about opposing possible human rights violations.
It's the suppression of those rights and it's morality in a human rights context that I am talking about, not the rights or wrongs of an Iranian fashion police.
