Iranian Dress Code

[Doc]

Ahmadinejad is indeed a crack pot... [/I]

Now as far as Ahmadinejad, I wholeheartedly agree, crack pot, crackhead, all round country bumkin, whichever. :crackhead:

 

[faceking]

Now as far as Ahmadinejad, I wholeheartedly agree, crack pot, crackhead, all round country bumkin, whichever. :crackhead:

I just think he's the dog in the yard that barks and growls when you walk by. Leave him in there, and don't taunt him. Question is... is it bravado or real.

Not to digress the thread, but the majority of Americans are clueless where all the hatred from the Middle East stems from our relationship with Israel. JAhmadinejad even cites that , and just blows me away that few realize. Not going to say alignment with Israel is right/wrong. Just pointing it out.

 

[Doc]

Well the majority of Americans prefer to watch a soap than the bbc or so. That is a bit of generalization, but you get my meaning.

As for Ahmadinejad. I think he's all bravado. He's a populist remember. The real power for the nuclear issue lies with his rival who is the head of the military. He just realized that he could get serious popular support on an issue that was slightly contraversial at the time. And he bet right. Now it's the biggest deal, and he's got most of Iran backing him in believing the deserve the right of nuclear technology. Did he really care, or does he really want nuclear weapons you got me on that.

 

[dong20]

Doc, I think somehow we got off on the wrong foot here it was not my intent to offend you but I think you still don't understand what I was trying to say and have gone somewhat on the 'offensive again' so....

With the lengthy response I've got from you, I can only infer several things.

The only thing you can infer reliably is that I was trying explain my point as fully as possible. It would appear I failed.

One, you feel the need to defend yourself with semantics for a clear position you stated, villifying the Iranian states policies several times over indicating that rape was used by the authorities as punishment as equally as imprisonment for the lack of wearing the Hijab.

I don't need to 'defend' anything, and where exactly did I villify Iran in any context other than perceived Human rights violations and then only because this thread is centred on Iran. Nowhere did I say Rape and Imprisonment were being used on equal term. Granted I used them in the same sentence which is hardly the same thing. If that was what I meant, then that is what I would have said, it wasn't so I didn't and you're putting words in my mouth:

We shouldn't but I think you're missing the point being made; which is that they have little or no choice in what to wear and trying to exercise any choice may result in fines, imprisonment, beatings or rape."

You may not have said it,

Exactly, I didn't say it, you inferred it, incorrectly as it happens.

...but that can clearly be derived from your repeated us of rape in the context you used it.

Well that's hardly accurate, if you read what I said, you will see I used the word once initially and a sceond time to restate my point, with hindsight I agree, the second was probably unneccssary but there you have it and it's hardly repeatedly in the sense you're implying:

And that is why I got upset enough to write a response. This is an important point, because carelessness about sensitive issues like this is exactly what fans the flames of discontent currently between Americans and Muslims in general. I am neither, but I have live with it.

You should be upset, if someone is raped it's wrong and upsetting. I do think you are overstating the case about US Muslim relations here though doc, that river of misunderstanding runs rather deeper.

All I'm asking you to do, is know what you are talking about. I certainly do.

I didn't say you didn't know what you are talking about, based on your own experiences. Remember, I may have had different ones yet you seem intent on dismissing them entirely, and mainly, so it seems, because they don't co-incide with your own.

Two, you feel the necessity to draw me into a protracted discussion about your above said points in hopes of validating yourself or you earlier claim. Get over it. When you've made a mistake see it, learn from it, and move on.

I feel no necessity for anything, I was merely responding your comments and trying to clarify my point. Though I have to say your arrogance in the last sentence is is uncalled for, when 'I' made a mistake? I'm stating my views based on my experience as are you, and, like you, I have that right.

Three, I have neither the time or the desire to try and explain to you a position of mine which you will no doubt not care to listen to anyway.

Well, this is a discussion group so that's a shame. I will always try and listen to others viewpoints, if I felt the opposite I would just ignore them as you now threaten. I will listen but that doesn't mean I'll agree, there is a difference.

As for yourself, I have no problem with you as an individual. I do not appreciate your passive agressive comments you dispersed throughout your last post, but that is normal if someone feels a bit hurt and wants to retailiate (I admit I was a bit harsh in my tone of my earlier post). If you want to put away your guns I will put away mine.

Likewise and as for the rest, I could say the same, and please don't presume to know my state of mind but FWIW It takes rather more than a few 'harsh words' to upset me, please.

So have a good day, and next time you want to bash another cultures way of doing things in a public post, realize there are alot of people watching, and they might have far more emotions and intelligence invested in your subject than you might realize.

Well actually, as I keep repeating, I was having a bash at what I see as potential Human Rights violations not Iranian culture per se:

Maybe they don't want to move inline with our 'culture and customs'....possibly because they have their own which pre-dates ours by centuries.

In the context of this thread, all they want is to be able to wear a pair of jeans without having seven kinds of crap beaten out them or raped....not much to ask in my book..

Note I said; "In the context of this thread". Where do I 'Bash' Iranian culture per se as you imply? You seem to keep trying to broaden my statement beyond the topic to encompass Iranian culture as a whole, and with respect that's my perogative not yours.

Again I ask, are you the kind who stands on the sidelines wringing there hands saying "it's not my place to interfere"? You may be right to do so or you may be wrong or or more likely neither. In part, that this it what this discussion is about exploring. As for the rest, right back at you there doc, and to me at least, the whole point of a public forum is that there are people reading.

Personally if you want to get back into a normal discussion I am more than willing to chat about points that intrigue you about this part of the world, otherwise you probably won't get much from me on this topic, no disrespect.:wink:

No disrespect taken but your tone is somewhat condescending. My opinions on this are as valid or invalid as your own and I restate what I said, just because events have not crossed your horizon of experience does not mean they have not crossed those of others. Rmember that before you dismiss their experiences and opinions so casually.

I know this post is long again but please do not infer anythig into that beyond me trying to address your points fully.

Holstered guns, can we play nice now? :biggrin1:

I am concerned that the changes in policy in Iran in this regard (and the possible means on their enforcement) will have Human Rights implications, are you not?

 

[Doc]

Dong I appreciate the time you took to stand your ground and play nice. You know I don't really want to get back into the back and forth thing. But I agree with you on the whole. We both clearly have experiences we feel are valid and we don't seem to match. So I suggest as you do too, that we both explore each others opinion through healthy discourse.

After all that is why I'm on this board. To learn something. I really hate arguing.

As for your last question. We are all worried here in the Arabian Gulf. Iran presents a lot of problems for us. Business has alot of stake with them one way or the other, they are also an icon for revolution and cultural change, and they have always have had a fairly aggressive and sneaky foreign policy in the region. So even though countries like the UAE, Kuwait, and Saudi, all heavily export to Iran, they also continue to bicker with Iran on territory rights or security issues.

Iran is now the dominant military force in the region. You could have said that about Iraq before. To some degree, the Arab's supported Iraq since they were still 'Arab', that was fine then, but now their 'big brother' is Persian and has no real cultural ties to the rest of Arabia only in respect to religion, and not completely either (most Arabia is Sunni). So this has them dancing around with the States for regional security. That makes Iran real nervous. Basically the whole thing is a powder keg. But one no one wants to see explode.

Culturally though, Iran has made some real steps forward in terms of popular movements. And unfortunately these steps are now toward the conservative pole. On the Arabian Peninsula, most countries have a hypocritical cultural stand. They have plenty of money, and most of that money stays in families or government hands. To appease the population they hand out to each local citizen some 'dividend' this is usually enough to appease the population. And even though the countries have an islamic stance, most don't mind the serious 'bending' of rules, to keep the population happy. In places like Saudi in some respects less of this happens, in the places like the Emirates, this happens all the time. It depends where you go to, and what area you are looking at. But there is a growing feeling amongst some locals that this hypocritical nature is not healthy for 'Gulfies'. The Kuwaitis went through that after the war, and they have been growing more and more conservative since. It is almost as if they are saying to themselves, we were very bad 'muslims' once now we need to repent in order to save our cultures. Iran provides these particular people with a cultural icon. And Iran knows this, and uses it.

So yes, getting back to the Hijab business, I am worried about whether other cultures will follow. As for Human rights implications. I'm sure all these countries have lots of human rights violations, but Human rights is really a western construct that works well for the West. When you move it over to the Islamic ideology it fit's completely differently.

In Islam they honestly believe that the group comes first, not the person. The family unit before the person, that social group before the family, the tribe before the social group, the country before the tribe, the world before the countries, God before everything else. You see. It is their attachment to their most significant phrase 'God is the greatest' that creates this. Human rights is only relevant to them when it fits in this scope. So for them women represent a part of the family unit and should put that first before themselves. If their husband feels they as a family should go on the conservative route then they veil. I know it all might sound very weird to you, but that is how they think. For these kinds of people I don't mind what they want to do, they make their own choice. For those that don't, yes, they suffer, and that is definitely a human rights violation, but if a country decides due to popular support, what can one do except leave.

The real disaster for human rights violations is not the veiling which is really a cosmetic problem (most women have found ways around this), but the illegal migrant workers. They are practically slaves. This is in the Gulf not in Iran.