Is Clinton vs. Obama really necessary?

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by playainda336, May 18, 2008.

  1. playainda336

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    Seriously.

    I just had to state this as I noticed the big debates were continuing on. And before you just dismiss this post, please everybody attempt to revert back to your sanity before all of this mess started.

    I do realize it's a rhetoric that was used when Hillary was the presumed nominee and Obama was the underdog, but more so now am I truly believing it. And Hillary herself even made a public statement about it.

    If you truly believe in the ideals of Hillary Clinton and/or Barack Obama, there is no need to vote for John McCain. What would be the purpose of the vote for McCain? Seems if you're displeased with the Democratic nominee (be it Hillary or Obama) you have only a few options:

    1. "Obama (or Hillary) lost the nomination and so now because I'm in spite of Hillary (or Obama), I'm going to vote for John McCain"

    Do you realize the inanity in this statement? If you supported the ideals of one of these candidates, then obviously you don't support the ideals of John McCain.

    2. Write in a vote for Hillary (or Obama).

    This is sooooooooo counter-productive. When choosing a president, you should choose based on the issues and ideals. Honestly, if Hillary won the nomination tomorrow, Obama would campaign his heart out for Hillary in the fall. Likewise, Hillary would campaign her heart out for Obama. Obviously, they want a Democrat to win. You writing in a vote would be counter-productive to this goal. The only person you would be "showing up" by doing this is yourself. This does not get your ideals into the White House.

    3. Not vote at all.

    This one is a no-brainer. Not voting is the same as voting for the candidate you're against period. See number 1.

    -----------------

    Finally, your final option is to just vote for the candidate who most represents the ideals that you have. Honestly, I may have said whatever in the heat of the debate, but when November hits, if Obama does not secure the nomination, I will vote for Hillary. Because, while I may not agree with everything she stands for an her character, she is the candidate that most represents my ideals.

    I think it took me not being in the midst of all of this political debate on here for a minute to clear my head on it. And obviously, I'd like to spread my enlightenment. Are we voting for people because of a name, a celebrity, likability, missteps and faux pas, human error? Seriously.

    When it comes down to the general election, we should vote for the person that most represents our ideals.

    I just want to leave you all with that.

    Yeah...this is helping nobody, but the candid
     
  2. Skull Mason

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    Didn't you say you were going to vote for mccain if hillary got the nomination
     
  3. dreamer20

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    He already said he changed his position in another thread.
     
  4. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    I changed my position too. I'm not sure what I will finally do when I'm in the voting booth in November - it will depend on the way the Democratic Party ends up selecting the Nominee, but I definitely changed from my original position.

    I no longer feel the need to simply vote for the Democratic Candidate out of fear of the Bush/Republican horror. The Mediocrity of the Democratic Party is becoming it's own horror and it is infinitely more personal and insulting...cuts much deeper.

    I am seriously considering Writing In Clinton. And I will continue to fight to have Michigan and Florida seated and for the DNC to correct their errors which have taken the validity out of this election.

    Without validity and belief in the integrity of the Party and Democracy there can be no support for the Obama.

    This Primary season has been so unfair that the disappointment I feel with democracy, our election system and the Democratic Party prevents me from being able to vote for Obama if he is given the Nomination. Obama and Obama Followers believe that half of those who voted in the Democratic Primary must vote Obama. But they are ignoring the extent of the discontent.

    The Obama people need to take your advice Playainda: They should accept their second best choice which "represents most of their ideals" and save the Party and the future of the Country themselves...Vote Clinton.


    McGovern. Dukakis. Kerry. Obama?
     
  5. D_Thoraxis_Biggulp

    D_Thoraxis_Biggulp New Member

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    Sure, because it makes perfect sense to get everybody to agree on the runner-up instead of the winner. The populous took quite well to it the last time we appointed a runner-up to office on a technicality. People like you are tearing the nation in half and hiding behind the hypothetical assumption that the other side would do the same were the tables turned. Sure, a lot of people don't like how things turned out. But more people do like it, even if you include Florida and Michigan.
     
  6. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    Right now, Clinton and Obama are separated by less than 2%. The Superdelegates must decide because Clinton has won so much of the vote that neither will seemingly reach the number needed to secure the nomination. This isn't a blow out where a candidate outright won the nomination. Obama has a slim lead. Half of the Party are asking would he even have that lead had this Primary been fair.

    Now you are making my point. Clinton supporters feel Obama is second best, aided to by unfairness in this campaign and definitely acting like the presumptive nominee on technicalities.

    The mediocrity of the DNC and the unfairness in this election is tearing the nation in half, not people like me who believe Hillary Clinton is the better candidate for President. No one is hiding behind anything:

    Without validity and belief in the integrity of the Party and Democracy there can be no support for the Obama.


    This race was so close that I don't know that...millions of voters do not know that for sure. The errors made by our own Party that hampered the Primary and undermined the integrity of this election and made it impossible to know if Hillary Clinton received a fair shot in this election. With Superdelegates having to decide and wanting to decide based on a slim lead in pledged delegates:
    • When, If and How MI and FL were seated mattered.
    • The apportionment of delegates in Nevada which led to a lawsuit mattered.
    • The Texas Two Step where the Caucus was a mess and led to numerous lawsuits mattered.
    • Outside of the DNC, media coverage that was biased and/or sexist mattered.
    • Calls for Hillary Clinton to step down when Obama hadn't even won mattered.
    Including MI and FL and allowing all the states to vote and then letting SuperDelegates decide did not happen. An attempt to circumvent a fair process happened and now Obama and his supporters want Clinton supporters to get on board to beat McCain.

    If the Democratic Party wants unity and to beat McCain, it will have to take the necessary steps to correct its errors in this primary so that it is fair in its selection of a nominee and represents the whole party, not just one half.
     
  7. Industrialsize

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    What a load of crap.....nuf said
     
  8. dreamer20

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    He actually has an "insurmountable lead" with only a few weeks left before the race is ended. The Democratic nominee will find support from a unified Democratic Party, which includes Hillary.

    Clinton & Obama backers seek unity

    WASHINGTON - Top fund-raisers for Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have begun private talks aimed at merging the two candidates' teams, not waiting for the Democratic nominating process to end before they start preparations for a hard-fought fall campaign.

    Despite Obama's apparently insurmountable lead in delegates needed to claim the nomination, aides to both candidates are resigned to the idea that the Democratic contest will continue at least through June 3, when Montana and South Dakota will cast the final votes of the primary season.


    Clinton, Obama backers seek unity - The Boston Globe
     
  9. playainda336

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    But now Trinity you are proving my point. You are voting for Clinton simply for the name of Hillary Clinton. Are you trying to push a certain idea into the White House or a specific person.

    If you plan on writing in Hillary, you may as well not even vote. The primary is not over. If Hillary wins? Great, I'll vote for her in the fall. But if Obama wins, why would you write in a vote for Hillary.

    First, she wouldn't be one of the choices left and she has all but stated that she would be campaigning for Obama herself if he wins. It's not about a person winning. It's about getting things done in Washington with whoever is best (out of the remaining candidates) to do so. Obama would be that person if he wins. If Hillary wins, then she would be that person.

    Also, please explain to me how this primary season has disgraced the ideals of Democracy. Democracy, to my understanding is, allowing people to vote and the majority wins. Right now, nothing has been slighted (MI and FL disobeyed the rules of the Democratic party), and Obama is leading in popular vote, delegates, and super delegates. His lead is so great now, that even with the compromises proposed to seat the MI and FL delegates, he would still be winning by a grand margin. This is democracy in full force. I don't see the problem.

    What I do see a problem is in the people hurt because their candidate did not win.

    And in all actually, Trinity, you would be going against the wishes of Hillary if you voted for McCain over Obama in the fall. Hillary has definitely proved some things in this whole process. She's tough as nails and she wont go down without a fight. While I don't think she needs to be Vice-President, it would be a mistake for her to not be in the President's cabinet (maybe).

    But with all due respect Trinity, take your own advice before you dish it out:
    Likewise, you should accept your second best choice which "represents most of your ideals" and save the Party and the future of the Country, by voting Barack Obama in the fall. Not writing in Hillary Clinton...forgive me and please do not take offense, but that is a stupid and horribly counter-productive sort of reasoning.
     
  10. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    The polls have shown defection to McCain is high if Obama is the Nominee. And across the electorate, Hillary Clinton supporters including strong numbers of Blue Collar Workers and Women are willing to stand for justice and fairness in this election by leveraging their vote.

    The slim lead is indeed insurmountable without help from the superdelegates. The same help from the superdelegates that Obama will require. The issue is the errors made by the Democratic Party in the Primary that created blatant unfairness and undermined the integrity of the Party and validity of the election.

    The media rarely covered Hillary Clinton's superdelegate gains, but these "unity efforts" by some will receive an abundance of media coverage undoubtedly. Most American Voters are not easily swayed by hype, political expediency or what pundits spout in the media as evidenced by the landslide of West Virginia.

    "Private talks" of merging are just that. Some voters may be influenced by it, but most won't. If Obama loses 30% of Hillary Clinton's vote he will lose the General Election. Obama: Win the battle, lose the war? Let's hope Democrats aren't that stupid.

    Some Democrats might be in private talks to jump on the second best bandwagon, however there are many who are not so inclined. Unity will depend on how this Primary is played out and how the Democratic Party sees to the fairness of this Primary to complete on June 3rd.

    So Again, Why Is Hillary Staying In?

    National Review Online: Finishing The Race May Be Candidate’s Best Route To Long-Term Victory

    - Hillary’s claim that she would do better against John McCain in swing states such as West Virginia - no Democrat has captured the White House without winning there since 1916 - is quite plausible. Obama is in danger of being cast as the Michael Dukakis of the 21st century (fairly or not). Polls show that in West Virginia, Obama wins only 53 percent of Democratic primary voters in a matchup against McCain. When only half of the party base is willing to vote for the nominee against a Republican, that nominee and that party have real problems.

    If Obama does implode, Hillary’s bitter-end fight would position her to say to Democrats, “You were warned
     
  11. playainda336

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    Don't you see Trinity. You would be the reason Obama would lose the election. Because you're stuck on the name of a person rather than the issues the person represents. If you want McCain to win, then fine...continue your pursuit. But if you don't want McCain to win, then why would you want to desecrate, persecute, and patronize Obama?

    30% of Hillary's base would vote for McCain...that would leave 70% voting for Obama in the general election. I'd like to pursue the reasons why the 30% wouldn't vote for Obama.

    Starting with you, actually. Let me know. If you truly support the issues of Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama became the nominee why would you not vote for Barack Obama?
     
  12. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    On acceptance of advice...you go first and I might be so inclined. It is always easier to tell someone else to do something they wouldn't do. Vote for Hillary Clinton because she is better than McCain.

    Obama would not have been against seating MI and FL from the beginning and worked against it if what you say is true. When and How those two delegations were seated mattered in the fairness of this election. To believe or state otherwise is ridiculous. At one point just revoting in MI would have given Clinton a psychological advantage because both states went for Clinton. Obama never wanted them to count. Now that he has a lead and can see the finish line he will just be looking for the appearance of fairness without giving up anything that might mean he won't win. This close Primary had to be fair from the start in order to be valid and ensure unity. The errors made by the DNC made that impossible.

    I believe Hillary Clinton will make the better President. I do not feel Obama can be or will be the right person for the job. Obama being slightly better than McCain went out the window as an option with the unfairness in this Primary. Counterproductive? I feel the Democratic Party is counterproductive now.

    Hillary Clinton must do what she must as a candidate and a politician to support the party, however as a voter and a member of several interest groups, I must do what I need to do to make sure the Party is representing the interest of the entire Party with fairness and integrity, otherwise there is no Unity...just people following blindly and toeing Party line.

    There must be fairness in Democracy for it to be true Democracy. Majority rule? Just because an election is held doesn't mean that it was fair and all the votes counted. I have discussed MI and FL in detail in many posts. They should be seated.

    I outlined the issues with Democracy and the Party in explicit detail in a previous post:

    Al Gore has done some amazing things for the environment and to help stop Global Warming but I think a major part of why he won the Nobel Prize was because he stepped aside in favor of democracy and America. Gore let Bush have the Presidency and didn't pull aside the veil to expose the very real problems that that election revealed in our democracy.

    Bush stole that election. Kerry was swiftboated. People are tired of a sham of democracy. After 8 years of what Bush has done to this country people want real change not propaganda b.s. nonsense change coming from a "rock star." It may appeal to the youth too young to know their history and to those who want to believe in a messiah candidate who can change it all with his rhetoric and be inspired by riveting speeches sometimes borrowed from other politicians but those who know what Washingtion is like, for those who know our history and what the future can hold, they are required to demand more.

    This Primary has been an exercise in detailing problems in our democracy. The entire race has been closer than any primary race. Hillary Clinton has had more people vote for her than any other candidate in history. The worst error would be to shove Obama down the throats of those who are fed up with accepting a sham of democracy out of fear a continuation of Bush and demanding they settle for less. After Gore, and Kerry and 8 years of Bush...they won't do it. Not for Obama. Not when they feel Clinton is the better candidate.

    The Primary - is unfair based on numerous factors.
    • Proportional allocation of the delegates in the Democratic Party was a problem waiting to happen for two candidates who were neck and neck. It made it impossible for a candidate to win without tearing up the party.
    • The Caucus System is undemocratic. There are numerous lawsuits still outstanding from this primary due to the causcuses. Voters should be able to cast a vote and go home. We did away with a poll tax and caucuses should go away.
    • No state should be sanctioned by disenfranchising the voters. Florida should not have been sanctioned at all. Michigan should not have been sanctioned by losing their entire delegation. Not even an equal sanction to the RNC would have been appropriate because the RNC does not have proportional allocation of delegates. The DNC knows and understands it is more difficult to win under their rules, therefore an equal sanction to the RNC was not in order. A lesser sanction would have been more reasonable. But in my opinion, it does not serve the party to punish the voters who are needed in the General Election. It is better to work within the party on the election calendar. Hillary Clinton should have had the delegates from FL and some or all from MI long ago. At this late stage of the game, it has hurt Hillary Clinton's chances to win the nomination because The DNC did not take into account their proportional allocation, what might be a close race, and make an intelligent decision to benefit and strengthen their party against the Republican shananigans. Instead the DNC was unwise, and let the Republicans outwit them and hampered their own Democratic Primary.
    • Superdelegates - The Party does need a fail safe mechanism to prevent unelectable candidates from sweeping however, but superdelegates are probably not the best mechanism. Leaders of the party don't want to make the decision out in the open. They want the people to make the decision so the responsibility is shared and validated. The problem is...a lead in delegates doesn't make a nominee and the superdelegates were created to be a fail safe for electability.
    • The bias in the media - Obama received numerous pillows. CNN, NBC were in the tank for Obama. Fox hated both candidates and wanted the Primary to continue therefore provided a bit more objectivity for their own purposes. A build up to put down.
    • Calling for Clinton to drop out when Obama did not secure the nomination several times. Accusing Clinton of single handedly ruining the party and the Democratic chances of regaining the White House. That is ridiculous. Obama leads by less than 2% and the last primary in W. VA. demonstrated that many voters want Clinton. The Party is damaging itself by ignoring half of the party.
    If Hillary Clinton were winning, she would seat FL and MI because they are needed for the General Election. If Hillary Clinton were winning and
    if seating FL and MI meant that Obama would take the lead, Obama supporters would be demanding they be seated.

    So, all of that being unfair...millions of voters aren't for Obama. It is presumptious to believe Obama would "inherit" the majority of Clinton's swing states votes in the face of such unfairness. The States Obama has won will more likely go Republican...how can he be the stronger candidate? Ignoring that is a major problem. Obama may win the battle and lose the war.
     
  13. Skull Mason

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    Did he change his mind after it became apparent that obama would be the presumptive nominee?
     
  14. Industrialsize

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    the word presumptive seems superfluos
     
  15. sargon20

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    There is no reason to believe either wil trounce McCain. As long as FoxNews is the #1 cable network spewing old style Soviet Pravda propaganda against the Democrats American democracy is doomed.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6Lstkiexhc
     
  16. lucky8

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  17. dreamer20

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    Great video sargon20.:smile:
     
  18. playainda336

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    But that's the problem, Trinity.

    Even with MI and FL, Hillary would NOT take the lead.

    When Hillary takes the lead by 200 delegates, then I'll vote for Hillary. Why wouldn't you do the same for Obama. Honestly, if Hillary or Obama wins, we all win...I'm just worried as to why you don't see it as such.

    By your own logic, you should vote for Obama because HILLARY says he's better than McCain.
     
  19. playainda336

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    If you search my post history, it's something I said before the Pennsylvania primary: that I would not vote for McCain.

    ...but hey, you people want to believe whatever you want. I can't stop you, right? :rolleyes:
     
  20. Shelby

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    The desperation is palpable when Hillary refers to Karl Rove's breakdown of the numbers and Trinity cites National review. Whoare they going to sidle up to next, Rush Limbaugh?

    Has it never occurred to them that these parties might be just a little disingenuous? Too funny.
     
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