Masculinity vs Femininity

[jjsjr]

It's quite obvious that society has a severe double standard in regard to what is dubbed masculine and feminine. But I find it interesting that people in general (I'm referring to the American public, because they're what I encounter most frequently) have begun to accept changes and modifications in what it means to be feminine yet still have issues when someone challenges masculinity.

About 80 years ago, women started challenging fashion trends by wearing pants, which made many people upset. Throughout the years, there are many examples of women making strides to push themselves away from a 'traditional' perception of femininity. However, when a man attempts to rebel from 'tradition' views of masculinity, it seems he is shunned moreso than the women were. This of course has ties to homosexuality and drag performers. If a women wears a men's shirt or participates in a "manly" activity, it's ok (in most instances). When a man wears a woman's dress and participates in a "girly" activity, it's upsetting to most cultures.

Would anyone like to elaborate or add a countering opinion?

 

[helgaleena]

When it comes to makeup and 'sexy' things for women, including those torture devices called high heels, men will always do it better than women. That is because such things were invented to titillate men. Probably by men.

Things that turn women on at a similar instinctual level are becoming more important to thinking men who value a woman's enjoyment. That is good. The wearing of pants by females for example has been practiced in other cultures than American for centuries. it has practical reasons. so also does wearing of skirts, as sarongs, dhotis and kilts for men will attest. mmm i like what men wear under those--- nothing.

 

[hud01]

I agree. It is the same thing as the fact that many people say a woman can be bi, but a man is either straight or gay.

 

[D_Doe_Ray_Mi]

I think your perceptilons are accurate. For more on this and the changing expression of masculine and feminine essences in our culture and the price we pay check out David Deida's works. A good first look is his book, "The Way of the Superior Man".

 

[Gisella]

Well..I have no idea what my personal experiences will add or subtract..I enjoy to participate. As I am a foreigner, feel a foreigner even after 2 decades around here..anyways..

I enjoy "my: males very masculine and my females feminine (mirror of some of me in them for me to feel attracted to them)..I am attracted to both sexes..way more to masculine/masculine.
Now...outside attraction arena. I grew up in a country were gay males were afeminates look and sound like females, projected themselves as females, in public, in a macho country. Those were the gays I know and enjoy greatly, as female!!!
Now the masculine gays that I meet here in the US were all new species of a gay expressions to me as homosexualas..(very very confusing, I am higly visual female, I crave masculines and handsome..LOL)..but the closet situation, carry lots of bagagges, of all sorts of heavy painful stuff for those in it.. the vibes are not good to those outside it also...rejection hurts, abandonments hurts..deeply pain for those in closet experiences. That is not a light subject at all and not just about masculine and feminine, way deeper in the soul..I feel that the afeminate gay persons I met so very early around in life had it way better (life is hard anyways)..because as all free spirits personalities, they cannot help but just express themselves.

Anyways..people are just people and we all have individual expressions..I tend to enjoy the authentics, artistic, real humans, present ones..I guess most people do accept those who are in peace with themselves, whoever they are in whatever attire they may choose to cloth themselves in..but when nude and "deprived" they are still the same in essence..

That is my feelings regarding "my" idea of masculine and feminine layers..without the "vs"...

 

[whatireallywant]

I'm big on "Biology is not destiny" (This does not mean I think being gay is a choice - but I don't think traditionally male interests or traditionally female interests are hard-wired in men/women... I think it varies among individuals according to how they're raised, and just the individual spark that sometimes doesn't seem to be either nature OR nurture! I have a few examples of that in my own life, and interestingly they are not anything that is considered traditionally masculine OR feminine!).

I think most people if allowed to be themselves, will be somewhere in the middle of the spectrum of interests, regardless of whether they are gay/lesbian, straight, or bi. For instance, I'm a straight woman who has mostly traditionally male interests but I do like clothes and makeup too. And I'm totally cool with men having interests that are traditionally female, as well. I kinda like that, in fact! Except for the funny story of when I was in school, I was friends with an effeminate guy and we did share most musical tastes but we didn't have a lot else in common because he was more traditionally female and I was more traditionally male! :biggrin1: But hey, it's all good. (And I love me a guy with good grooming and fashion sense!)

Now, what I was talking about with stuff about me that is not masculine/feminine and seemed to spring out of nowhere (seemingly not nature OR nurture) is my tastes in food and music. No one else in my family likes spicy ethnic food, but that's my favorite! And while you could say that some of my tastes in music came from my environment, I was the only person I knew of where I lived who liked indie rock and world music. Most liked either country or what is now considered "classic rock" - and most of my college dorm mates seemed to like what is considered "easy listening". Those things are gender-neutral, but there too I differed from my family (including extended family) and pretty much everyone I knew where I lived.

 

[deleted356736]

Some or many of traditional feminine attributes are cultural rather than biological. This becomes obvious if we study other cultures, and find femininity has a rather different set of attributes. Women from some cultures may be closer to masculine compared to Western women.

The OP discussed clothing changes over the decades, and lets have a look at appearance. Women wear heels, because they enhance long-leggedness relative to height that is an indicator of sexual maturity, and they also enhance the way that women walk as the result of their pelvic structure once they reach maturity. It's about fertility and readiness to reproduce. Women often wear lipstick, which mimics the flushed lips of sexual arousal. Full lips are considered attractive, and women with high estrogen have fuller lips, so again we are looking at sexual fertility. Makeup covers flaws and imperfections, giving a youthful appearance. Eye shadow enlarges the eyes, which mimics high-estrogen females who have naturally larger eyes, so again we are looking at sexual fertility.

Women are lucky in that they can wear trousers, and these highlight their feminine curvy figures and, long legs, which are sexual triggers. So they wear clothing that has masculine origins, and still look feminine.

If men mimic these things, they don't do anything for us. We don't have long legs, we don't have high levels of estrogen, and if we do then it's a negative.

 

[helgaleena]

You do not have long legs? In high heels you do.

I enjoy chest hair because it is a thing women cannot manage, and broad shoulders because so many females are wider in their hips rather than shoulders, and a nice bulge in the trousers, and a muscular calf below the kilt. These do not do anything for men but they certainly sell romance novels.

sturdy thighs and the buns of steel... you piece of meat you... you sexual object for my ogling....

 

[dolfette]

i had this exact conversation with my daughter.
her best mate is the campest 12y/o i ever met. complete with bent wrist walk, high pitched squeals and turning up to non-uniform days in drag.
she was saying he should try to be like everyone else to fit in.
i returned that there is a tomboy at her school, a girl who acts and dresses so much like a boy that she is usually mistaken for one.
everyone is perfectly cool with this girl wanting to be a boy, but detests this boy wanting to be a girl. a disgusting double standard.

 

[LittleDicky]

Well, this is a little thing, but it speaks of sexual stereotypes:

Women get to carry a purse, with all their junk in it. I'm surprised it's never been acceptable for men to have some kind of "carry-all" for their junk.

Other than makeup and tampons, men have just as much junk to carry around as women: Pens, paper, wallets, change, gum, cigarettes, cell phones -- you get the idea. What choices do men have? The ridiculous "fanny pack?" A briefcase?

I've often thought it would be very convenient if men had the same choice as women. Instead, we're relegated to trying to stuff all of these things into the pockets of our shirts, pants, and jackets -- or leaving what we can in our cars. It's a matter of practicality, nothing more.

Makeup is another area..... Now, I have no desire to wear makeup; I am a very plain guy. But, think of all the machinations, time, and expense women go through to improve their looks.

With guys, you get up, shave (if you have to) wash your face, and how you look, you look. There is nothing you can do to improve on nature.

Just curious why all the war-paint is appropriate for females, but not for males, when in nature, it's just the opposite. Male birds (most common example) have the more brilliant displays, while the females tend to be dull and blend into the foliage, probably to project the nest from being easily discovered by predators.

It all seems to be societal rules, based on nothing concrete.

 

[B_HeSizedManThing]

If a women wears a men's shirt or participates in a "manly" activity, it's ok (in most instances). When a man wears a woman's dress and participates in a "girly" activity, it's upsetting to most cultures

Male cross-dressing is just seen as a man purposely going out of his way to be feminine; It takes a lot of work and maintenance for a woman to dress the way she does, put on make-up and be seductive. Women generally envy guys for just being able to wear a t-shirt and boxers around the house, wake up and get ready for work in like, five minutes. Girls are just curious about what that's like, and if they grew up closer to their fathers or other male relatives, they might have tried to embrace what they felt as advantages without necessarily intending to lose their femininity. Meanwhile, a man will cross-dress as a woman specifically BECAUSE he wants he wants to embrace femininity, or might even be turned on by it. It's seen as a gender-identity thing, or even a fetish.

I absolutely do not intend to offend anyone, but that's only my opinion and i'm only trying to add to the discussion based on what i've noticed from society. I encourage any civil discussion and counter-points if you got 'em.



You'd be surprised, though; Cooking, baking, performance arts, cleaning the house etc have been traditionally seen as VERY feminine activities, and men used to get laughed at if they engaged in these activities. . .but now, it seems to be far more accepted, and even appreciated for a guy to have less gender roles than we did in say, 1945. I've spoken with a few straight men who flat-out admitted to me that they're jealous of gay relationships for not having pre-conceived gender roles; both partners just work 100% to meet the same goal, and no one has to feel feminine or masculine because they helped run the household.

 

[helgaleena]

You'd be surprised, though; Cooking, baking, performance arts, cleaning the house etc have been traditionally seen as VERY feminine activities, and men used to get laughed at if they engaged in these activities. . .but now, it seems to be far more accepted, and even appreciated for a guy to have less gender roles than we did in say, 1945. I've spoken with a few straight men who flat-out admitted to me that they're jealous of gay relationships for not having pre-conceived gender roles; both partners just work 100% to meet the same goal, and no one has to feel feminine or masculine because they helped run the household.

Hesized, we must be making some sort of progress then!

One of my grand nieces recently had to switch high schools because she 'came out' lesbian. The new place a thousand miles away does not find her too strong or too brown and finds it admirable that she went grouse hunting in a calico dress and cleaned and cooked it for us. I think she may be less one or the other than she thinks and merely was trying to shock the suburb of Barbie types she was trapped in by deciding early.

What she does with her love life matters less than making it as a productive and fulfilled adult.

 

[Bbucko]

Well, this is a little thing, but it speaks of sexual stereotypes:

Women get to carry a purse, with all their junk in it. I'm surprised it's never been acceptable for men to have some kind of "carry-all" for their junk.

Other than makeup and tampons, men have just as much junk to carry around as women: Pens, paper, wallets, change, gum, cigarettes, cell phones -- you get the idea. What choices do men have? The ridiculous "fanny pack?" A briefcase?

I've often thought it would be very convenient if men had the same choice as women. Instead, we're relegated to trying to stuff all of these things into the pockets of our shirts, pants, and jackets -- or leaving what we can in our cars. It's a matter of practicality, nothing more.

Makeup is another area..... Now, I have no desire to wear makeup; I am a very plain guy. But, think of all the machinations, time, and expense women go through to improve their looks.

With guys, you get up, shave (if you have to) wash your face, and how you look, you look. There is nothing you can do to improve on nature.

Just curious why all the war-paint is appropriate for females, but not for males, when in nature, it's just the opposite. Male birds (most common example) have the more brilliant displays, while the females tend to be dull and blend into the foliage, probably to project the nest from being easily discovered by predators.

It all seems to be societal rules, based on nothing concrete.

Hmmmmmmm, two things:

1) I've carried a bag of one kind or another since my early 20s. They are usually discrete and simple, not "purse-y" at all. But when you live in an urban area without a car, you just need something to carry all your crap in. Up north in the winter I always had pockets in my coats but still preferred having everything central and easy to find. This wasn't a feminine thing, it was a practical thing. Here in SoFla I almost never wear things with the right kind of pockets and still carry a small bag (not a fanny-pack: never!).

2) Men have a good range of grooming and clothing options that can effect the way you look, absolutely. You have your hair, both on your head on on your face. I cut and grow different looks all the time, always changing. There's nothing feminine about that. Likewise you have a choice in how your clothing fits, and contrary to what some Neanderthals might think, there is nothing inherently feminine or gay about having clothes that fit properly instead of having it hang off your body like so many potato sacks.

 

[TheRob]

the quick version is the American Society is based upon guilt so the fact that women were treated "poorly" a century ago means they can do anything they want now

 

[whatireallywant]

You'd be surprised, though; Cooking, baking, performance arts, cleaning the house etc have been traditionally seen as VERY feminine activities, and men used to get laughed at if they engaged in these activities. . .but now, it seems to be far more accepted, and even appreciated for a guy to have less gender roles than we did in say, 1945. I've spoken with a few straight men who flat-out admitted to me that they're jealous of gay relationships for not having pre-conceived gender roles; both partners just work 100% to meet the same goal, and no one has to feel feminine or masculine because they helped run the household.

This is a very good trend! It hasn't reached where I grew up, though, sadly... (at least not for the most part). I want a guy who likes to cook and is willing to clean house (I can't imagine anyone actually liking to clean house, but I have been flabbergasted before by people's attitudes about stuff :biggrin1. Performance arts are optional. :smile:

Now of course that does not mean that I would expect him to do all the work while I just sit around. Ideally, he would pretty much do all the cooking. We'd both work outside the home (and hopefully I could get a steady job again!!!), and we'd both clean house, maybe I would do a little more of that since he'd be doing the cooking... I want it to be fair.

And yes, I would like for straight couples to both work 100% to meet the same goal, as well. Really, this should be the ideal for any couple, straight or gay.

 

[sexplease]

Since white men most often, and most men in general think they run the world, women are often perceived as second class inhabitants and thus are more easily marginalized for their behaviors.
Men are supposed to be stoic and stable and therefore deviating from that social norm is seen as a usurping of the power stick (penis)
And there is nothing quite as frightening to most (straight) men as loosing their power (physical or emotional castration)

 

[helgaleena]

Whoah sexplease and TheRob, what a way to generalize about either sex!!!

 

[sexplease]

Whoah sexplease and TheRob, what a way to generalize about either sex!!!

If you note, I say "most" or "some" and not all.
to which I will also offer: Most men do two things - they fight and fuck. and most women nurture and communicate.
It IS what most genders of most species do, grossly speaking.

 

[hud01]

If you note, I say "most" or "some" and not all.
to which I will also offer: Most men do two things - they fight and fuck. and most women nurture and communicate.
It IS what most genders of most species do, grossly speaking.

Whoa, do you have issues. Most men do not fight and fuck. Most humans fuck. Men could not fuck without women being part of the act, unless you are saying most men go to prostitutes, and therefore one woman takes care of twenty men.

Go on Youtube and search for girl fights, you might think differently. I knew a bar owner who said some of the most viscious fights he saw at his bar were between two women.

You might be surprised at the number of women who don't nurture and the number that have issues communicating.

Also, you now enlarge it to be most species. Please give me specifics as to the other species you are talking about.

 

[sexplease]

Whoa, do you have issues.

No, I haven't issues, I'm a realist and ascribe with The Scientific Method.
ok, I'll just reference human behavior. (though observation proves these behaviors across the animal kingdom with regards to the sexes)
Females produce babies with the aid of sperm (in most cases)
Males, and when I say "fight", in broad terms- when men go to work and/or interact with each other, this behavior is often for the ultimate goal of sex, to which the ( accidental )by-product is depositing sperm and thus offspring... and, nature is it's clever disguise, promotes continuation of itself.
Men often don't fuck to make babies, they do it because testosterone drives them to this behavior.

Women do fuck as well, with the aid of physiological chemically induced desire when androgen and (small amount of testosterone) is highest - and as nature would slyly have it - the time she is most easily susceptible to impregnation.
social observation has shown women wearing more make-up, shorter skirts and generally fluffing their appearance in tandem with their menstrual cycle. Again, the desire for intercourse increases when it's the best time to procreate.
Women also fight to protect their perceived territory (bread winner,protector, off-spring) and yes, these fights are often brutal, and in some ways, mush more so than the incursions of males.

""Most men do not fight and fuck. Most humans fuck. Men could not fuck without women being part of the act, unless you are saying most men go to prostitutes, and therefore one woman takes care of twenty men. "

most humans engage in sex for it's pleasurable affect.... and nature uses this mechanism to promote itself.

Men fuck without women, as is in the case of homosexual behaviors and masturbation. Even when a man is getting satisfying sex with and/or from partner(s) they often continue in masturbation. (testosterone is the main cause)

Fucking and fighting (think 9-5 work ) is what males are designed by nature to do.
Communication and nurture is what females are designed by nature to do.