More Enlightenment Problems.

B_Hickboy

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Actually - you can't - he's wrong. Quelle surprise!! :rolleyes::biggrin1:

http://www.mediadico.com/dictionnaire/definition/horreur/1

http://www.wordreference.com/fren/horreur


http://littre.reverso.net/dictionnaire-francais/definition/horreur/38134
I can still always count on him to gainsay just about anything I write, and to do so in a casually high-handed manner.
 

JustAsking

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point -- witchcraft is not a religion, so is the ACLU's reasoning and argument, asserting Constitutional protection tenable?

point -- the defendant's name seems to be Native American, so the question is whether the school instructor or teacher is also Native American, and subscribes to the same worldview; Given that it is well-known that if both have the same belief of the effects of 'witchcraft', then, yes, the exercise of that practice could have had an effect on the teacher, then the student's intent and design are the appropriate subject(s) of disciplinary action.

Counterpoint - The Constitution provides no criteria for what constitutes a religion. She was accused of invoking a supernatural entity using rituals and special words with the aim of affecting the health of another individual. How is that not a religious excercise and how is it different than Christian prayer?

I owe everyone an apology here. I did not realize the case and the article were 8 years old. I found it on a blog that writes about current events in the area of religious freedom.

Although it is an interesting case, I would only post it in these threads if I thought it was current. Posting old articles in order to provoke a response is pretty close to troll-like behavior.
 
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Guy-jin

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It's okay, JA. Still an interesting (if not hilariously bad) story. Plus it gives me the opportunity to do this:

My first question would be "What proof do they have to say that she is a witch"

Because she weighs the same as a duck... and therefore she must be made of wood!
 

kalipygian

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What a dummy that Mr. Kemp is, he should have just gotten himself spritzed with holy water, instead of going to a hospital.
 

B_Nick4444

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[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Interesting question -- I'll refrain from measures that go to the religious intention, but, within the context of your thread, what legal recognition has been accorded?

Else anyone could claim the privilege and protection afforded by the Constitution, for any practice


The Civil rights Act of 1964 states "To be a bona fide religious belief entitled to protection under either the First Amendment or Title VII, a belief must be sincerely held, and within the believer's own scheme of things religious." (USCA Const. Amend 1: Civil Rights Act 1964 701 et seq., 717 as amended 42 USCA 2000-16)

[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Some court decisions which have recognized Wicca are:
[/FONT]
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[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]An important ruling of a state Supreme Court was in Georgia: Roberts v. Ravenwood Church of Wicca, (249 Ga. 348) in 1982. It was similar to Dettmer v Landon, below.[/FONT]
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[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The District Court of Virginia declared in 1985 (Dettmer v Landon, 617 F Suup 592 [E. Dst. Va.]) that Wicca is "clearly a religion for First Amendment purposes....Members of the Church sincerely adhere to a fairly complex set of doctrines relating to the spiritual aspect of their lives, and in doing so they have 'ultimate concerns' in much the same way as followers of more accepted religions. Their ceremonies and leadership structure, their rather elaborate set of articulated doctrine, their belief in the concept of another world, and their broad concern for improving the quality of life for others gives them at least some facial similarity to other more widely recognized religions." 1 This was a landmark case.[/FONT]
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[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Judge J. Butzner of the Fourth Circuit Federal Appeals Court confirmed the Dettmer v Landon decision (799F 2nd 929) in 1986. He said: "We agree with the District Court that the doctrine taught by the Church of Wicca is a religion." Butzner J. 1986 Fourth Circuit.[/FONT]
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[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]A case was brought in 1983 in the U.S. District Court in Michigan. The court found that 3 employees of a prison had restricted an inmate in the performance of his Wiccan rituals. This "deprived him of his First Amendment right to freely exercise his religion and his Fourteenth Amendment right to equal protection of the laws." More details[/FONT]
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[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]A case Wheeler v Condom was argued before a U.S. Postal Service Administrative Judge regarding who had the right to pick up mail addressed to The Church of Y Tylwyth Teg (a.k.a. Y Tylwyth Teg), and The Association of Cymmry Wicca and delivered to a Georgia post office box. The 1989 decision recognized both groups as valid religious organizations. 2[/FONT]
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[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Many other cases are listed in the Welsh Witchcraft web site. 3[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica] [/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Wicca has never been considered by the U.S. Supreme Court. However, that court once ruled on the Santeria religion. The case was: Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. and Ernesto Pichardo v. City of Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520 (1993). This case involved the legality of animal sacrifices which are not a practice of Wiccans. However, the ruling did recognize the rights of a religion which is very different from Christianity and many other organized religions in America. If the legality and status of Wicca were ever to be challenged in court, the Santeria ruling would likely be considered a precedent for the court to follow.[/FONT]


[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Government recognition[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Wiccan and other Neopagan groups have been recognized by governments in the US and Canada and given tax exempt status. Wiccan priests and priestesses have been given access to penitentiaries in both countries, and the privilege of performing handfastings/marriages. On 2001-MAR-15, the list of religious preferences in the U.S. Air Force Personnel Data System (MilMod) was augmented to include: Dianic Wicca, Druidism, Gardnerian Wicca, Pagan, Seax Wicca, Shamanism, and Wicca. 4[/FONT]


IS WICCA A RELIGION
 

JustAsking

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[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Interesting question -- I'll refrain from measures that go to the religious intention, but, within the context of your thread, what legal recognition has been accorded?[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Else anyone could claim the privilege and protection afforded by the Constitution, for any practice[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The Civil rights Act of 1964 states "To be a bona fide religious belief entitled to protection under either the First Amendment or Title VII, a belief must be sincerely held, and within the believer's own scheme of things religious." (USCA Const. Amend 1: Civil Rights Act 1964 701 et seq., 717 as amended 42 USCA 2000-16)[/FONT]

...

That's what I like about you, Nick. You always do your homework.
 

Simon8.5

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Actually he's wrong.

You're correct in my description of the gender of the noun.

However "quel horreur" is still correct.

The poster in question was wrong since (though the noun "horreur" is feminine) it is preceded by "quel" and since it begins with an "h" the masculine "quel" precedes it. It's a general rule in the language.

That's pretty well known by all.
 

ZOS23xy

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point -- witchcraft is not a religion, so is the ACLU's reasoning and argument, asserting Constitutional protection tenable?

point -- the defendant's name seems to be Native American, so the question is whether the school instructor or teacher is also Native American, and subscribes to the same worldview; Given that it is well-known that if both have the same belief of the effects of 'witchcraft', then, yes, the exercise of that practice could have had an effect on the teacher, then the student's intent and design are the appropriate subject(s) of disciplinary action.

Wicca is recognized as a religion, and it extends to people in the armed services.
 

ManlyBanisters

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You're correct in my description of the gender of the noun.

However "quel horreur" is still correct.

The poster in question was wrong since (though the noun "horreur" is feminine) it is preceded by "quel" and since it begins with an "h" the masculine "quel" precedes it. It's a general rule in the language.

That's pretty well known by all.

Oh really?

Then please explain why Quelle heure est il? is correct and Quel heure est il? is incorrect, as I'm sure you are aware it is, Stronzo.

Edit: The rule you are thinking of is for things like 'mon horreur' (nf) / 'mon hyperbole' (nf) where 'ma horreur' / 'ma hyperbole' would be difficult to say. It does not extent to 'quel / quelle' because it works on pronunciation, not spelling - the last vowel of 'quelle' makes no difference to the pronunciation of 'quelle horreur', 'quelle heure', etc..
 
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B_Nick4444

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Wicca is recognized as a religion, and it extends to people in the armed services.


yes, I know -- I had misread the article, and subsequently posted the passage that led me to believe there was a distinction being made between Wicca and the alleged "witchcraft" being practiced by the child
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Edit: The rule you are thinking of is for things like 'mon horreur' (nf) / 'mon hyperbole' (nf) where 'ma horreur' / 'ma hyperbole' would be difficult to say. It does not extent to 'quel / quelle' because it works on pronunciation, not spelling - the last vowel of 'quelle' makes no difference to the pronunciation of 'quelle horreur', 'quelle heure', etc..

Bingo.