No Child Left Behind or Another Bush Con-Game?

[Wyldgusechaz]

Mlle Rouge,

Good education is expensive. It just is. If you really value children and families and the idea that the next generations should know more and have it better than their predecessors, you would spend whatever you can on educating our children. The children are our future.

S

In real dollars we are spending more per child than we ever have. Real inflation adjusted dollars. Why do we have to spend more than we did even 30 years ago? Sounds like a total cop out. Its always money.

In this case its not. Its the parents. Back to the one room schoolhouses

One-room school - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk about tough conditions but the kids learned.

 

[Hockeytiger]

I do find it interesting that when NCLB was passed, it was hailed by the press as a bi-partisan endeavor in which President Bush and Senator Kennedy were seen in photos shaking hands smiling, and walking shoulder to shoulder, showing how if both sides of the isle work together they can acheive great things. Now that the Act is regarded as a failure it is no longer bi-partisan. It is now the administration's failure. When it was a good thing both parties shared in the glory, but now that it is a "bad" thing, only one side is bearing the brunt of the blame.

 

[Balljunkie]

In real dollars we are spending more per child than we ever have. Real inflation adjusted dollars. Why do we have to spend more than we did even 30 years ago? Sounds like a total cop out. Its always money.

In this case its not. Its the parents. Back to the one room schoolhouses

One-room school - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk about tough conditions but the kids learned.

Amen, brother. My parents went to segregated schools and were underfunded because of Jim Crow. They didn't have all of the technology and there wasn't that need for everything to be show and pony and "visual". They learned what they had to learn because their parents made sure that they did. It is so funny how many children have mp3 players, ipods, and cell phones, but cannot read a sentence or do basic math.

 

[midlifebear]

First, SIMCHA, I love you. There's nothing in your posts on this thread with which I can find fault. Although I only taught 4th/5th grades (a minimum of 40 students in every 7-hour day-long class) for five years, I somehow was able to matriculate ALL of them to the next grade, honestly prepared to continue their educations without "fixing" grades. Looking back, the only way I was able to pull off that miracle was because I was young with the physical and mental energy (as well as blind optimism) to get it done.

Your observations and analysis on NCLB are a direct hit, too. And those who have whined that the failures of public education lies with the parents are also correct. But they haven't a real understanding how they are still a part of the problem rather than the solution.

You have my highest respect for still working (and fighting) in public education. I look back and feel a bit of guilt. After five years of teaching in the Salt Lake City School District, I had to make a change: either start a regime of heavy meds or jump as fast as I could into graduate school. Graduate school won.

Although I received a substantial stipend to defray the costs of my out-of-state tuition at UT, Austin, I still had to teach a full-time load of expository writing classes every semester to freshmen students just to make rent, buy food, and stay two paychecks away from complete poverty. Just imagine the horror when I realized about half of my students had made it to their first year of college without understanding that a complete sentence required a subject and a verb! True story. But then, becoming an undergrad at UT isn't difficult; 1) because it's a State school, and 2) it's really just an institution of higher partying, a place one goes to drink through to adulthood for 4 years.

Fortunately, grad school at UT was a much more serious endeavor. However, it was during my 4 years as a grad student that I carefully prepared my plans to get the Hell out of the USA and find work in Europe and South America. Still, I kept my foot in the door as a teacher by volunteering to teach adult literacy.

The government of the United States will disavow my claim, but 1 out of every 5 adults with high school diplomas are not functionally literate. That means they cannot decipher and process "Refrigerate after openining" among many other instructions. The reasons these adults (18 years and older) fall through the cracks and fail to learn to read are as varied as each illiterate individual. However, your claim that it's in the best interest of the government to maintain an uneducated population lacking the skills to pick up a newspaper and understand what's going on in the USA rings so loud and true that I'm surprised more 'Mericuhns aren't hearing impaired. Keep 'em dumb and you can easily control the masses. It's them thar uppity folks with educations that cause all the problems. At least, that's what I soon learned after hearing the life stories of all the adult literacy students I taught to read.

By the way, it takes just 3 hours spread over a week for 6 months to help an adult acquire the skills to read at the level of a student in the eighth grade. Of course, that's for an adult who is motivated, has no serious learning disability and who shows up regularly. If they are dyslexic, it can be done in 9 months. But these are just general rules of thumb. Everyone is different.

Now I enjoy living outside the USA taking on different challenges, but I simply had to whack out a few hundred words to tell you how much I respect your additions to this thread. If you notice, the most negative comments (those blaming everything and everyone EXCEPT el Presidente Arbusto) tend to be 100% straight and in their mid 30's. I'm certain there's a story to be mined from those stats.

Regardless, please keep slugging away and working in public education. I worship at your feet for being so brave to continue.

 

[Lex]

Lifelong special educator and former assistant principal here. I don't have much to add, as many have really said it far better than I could.

There are some good ideas behind this law (i.e., ending the soft bigotry of low expectations, having high expectations for all students, [hopefully] creating equitable educational opportunity for each child), but these ideas come with some hefty price tags:

• Highly qualified does not mean highly effective. I know many highly qualified teachers who are not good teachers and many uncertified teachers who are awesome. The HQT regulations force a lot of good people out of education.
• Punishing schools for not doing well--taking away instead of giving to the most needy schools.
• Creating vouchers which serve to only undermine the further deplete the resources for public education.

There have been a lot of excellent points made here and it reminds me that I should be working on my dissertation. Topic: High-stakes testing and students with disabilities. Yup.

 

[ZOS23xy]

3) Food is expensive because it's being used to make fuel as a half-assed attempt to look like the cynical neocon government is doing something to end our dependence on oil.

Simcha


It could be based on other things, instead of the corn itself, use the cob and the rest of the plant.

You could use another plant, like Jerusalum Artichokes. which grown like weeds, can be more prolific than corn and have more starch. Or grow hemp, which is a weed. Anyone thinking of how to use the vast acres of kudzu in the south? There are a lot of plants that cover hundreds of acres that people would love to eradicate.

Use corn? That's was a foolish move.

 

[DC_DEEP]

<...>
Most inner city schools still suffer due to lack of funding. Teachers are still dramatically underpaid and some kids can't even get proper, modern textbooks.
<...>

I agree that teachers are criminally underpaid. I don't agree, though, that "lack of funding" is the problem. Fiscally, inner city schools would appear to have more money than rural schools, because the tax base is there. The problem is with allocation and mismanagement.

In real dollars we are spending more per child than we ever have. Real inflation adjusted dollars. Why do we have to spend more than we did even 30 years ago? Sounds like a total cop out. Its always money.

No, we aren't spending more. Taxpayers are paying more, but where does it actually go?

And George Bush is not the first to try some stupid scheme to further fuck up public education. Bill Clinton tried it. I don't even recall the name of the effort, or the specifics, but "new standards" (if you read between the lines) were designed to force smaller school districts to consolidate. In the end, the smaller districts actually complied and the larger ones didn't. Deadlines were extended, then the whole thing was scrapped.

 

[Guy-jin]

Seeing as I write/provide materials to salvage the many children who ARE left behind -- and as a parent of kids having to deal with the ridiculous system -- I have to say that it's just about the WORST thing that's happened to the U.S. public school system since its inception 100 years ago.

Agreed. I am absolutely astounded that literally anyone can support this horrendous program.

Anyone who thinks NCLB is anything but a ploy to make nationwide vouchers a reality is kidding themselves.

We've got a generation of undereducated children being created here and a swath of our country seems like it doesn't even care.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Lets not bullshit around. IT'S THE TYPE STUDENTS NOW. It is not the system or the teachers or the lack of money. There are large segments of our parental population that simply do not care about education, period.

So, let's get this straight. You want us to believe that every teacher in our school system is paid adequately for their time. You also want us to believe that every public school has proper materials to teach students the fundamentals as well as updated textbooks & computers. Every school district that may have problems with city crime have the proper security necessary to prevent kids from being harmed. All students have an accurate lunch program to make sure every student gets fed. And every student in every school system gets the same exact education and the same, exact options for further education.

And we're to believe that parents don't care whether or not their children get a proper education?

Seriously, what planet do you live on?

100-150 years ago kids came out of ONE ROOM SCHOOLHOUSES on the damn plains better educated than we can do with computers and electronic visual aids and the internet nowadays. Cause their parents cared. Thats the reason. Blaming the neo-cons is the chicken shit cop out.

And the government (state & federal), which can actually do something to fix the real problems decide to enforce "No Child Left Behind". A program that raises the standards, but doesn't provide the funding necessary to make these new high standards achievable. I do agree that a lot of kids do need better parenting in order to ensure that they make it. But to sit here and put the entire blame on just the parents and not split the responsibility accordingly? I wonder what type of schooling you received when you were younger?

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

So, let's get this straight. You want us to believe that every teacher in our school system is paid adequately for their time. You also want us to believe that every public school has proper materials to teach students the fundamentals as well as updated textbooks & computers. Every school district that may have problems with city crime have the proper security necessary to prevent kids from being harmed. All students have an accurate lunch program to make sure every student gets fed. And every student in every school system gets the same exact education and the same, exact options for further education.

And we're to believe that parents don't care whether or not their children get a proper education?

Seriously, what planet do you live on?



And the government (state & federal), which can actually do something to fix the real problems decide to enforce "No Child Left Behind". A program that raises the standards, but doesn't provide the funding necessary to make these new high standards achievable. I do agree that a lot of kids do need better parenting in order to ensure that they make it. But to sit here and put the entire blame on just the parents and not split the responsibility accordingly? I wonder what type of schooling you received when you were younger?

Throw money at it. Your lockstep answer. As I noted in another post, Wash DC has $13000/student to get them educated. THE TUITION FOR FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY IS $3000!!!!!! fOR PRIVATE DRAKE UNIVERSITY ITS $17000!!!

I am the son of 2 elementary school drop outs and educated in public elementary/high school and private school universities. Academic scholarship to undergrad, paid for grad school by tending bar and doing landscaping.

 

[transformer_99]

Good education is not expensive in terms of money. Today's kids are given advantages many other students haven't been given in terms of computers, books and other resources. I think when you find a child that has not learned and achieved all they can be, a lot of it has to do with being inundated/bombarded with an overload of information. I get that way while shopping even, the choices are overwhelming. Sometimes my pea sized brain can't process everything and I wind up just leaving the damn store more confused than when I walked in. It's how you allocate your time and what you get out of your effort.

Bush's program is a lie, named something that it hardly represents. Good intentions ? Maybe so ? But when Bush rolled it out, I immediately referred to it as "Your Child Left Behind", because we all know his weren't regardless of how well they "actually" did in comparison !

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Throw money at it. Your lockstep answer. As I noted in another post, Wash DC has $13000/student to get them educated. THE TUITION FOR FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY IS $3000!!!!!! fOR PRIVATE DRAKE UNIVERSITY ITS $17000!!!

Did I say that was the only answer? Absolutely not. But you're talking as if every single person out there has the ability to go to college if they want to and that's simply not true at all. You list these dollar figures as if every person in America can afford it and that is also not true. You act as if the only thing a student has to worry about when they get into college is the tuition, and again, NOT TRUE.

You go ask a kid who has no choice but to live in a very poor, urbanized city where crime is high and the average income per household is under $25K a year. Where people have to REALLY worry about getting home safely, finding food to eat, paying the necessary bills to survive day to day and keeping a roof over their head. Sure, they may think about college. But to these people, even a state college at $3000 a semester is too much to afford!

Of course, the only excuse you have for these people is that they don't have parents who care enough that their kids get the proper education. Such an easy, over-simplified answer for those who essentially "got theirs" and don't give a damn if anyone else "gets some".

I am the son of 2 elementary school drop outs and educated in public elementary/high school and private school universities. Academic scholarship to undergrad, paid for grad school by tending bar and doing landscaping.

Like this makes a difference? It doesn't matter if you had two parents who didn't finish school. They still had you and made sure to enforce the importance of an education. And despite the dire situations you may have been raised around, you were able to keep focus and do what was right for you. Consider yourself one of the lucky ones. All I'm saying is that many parents would love to see their kids got a proper education and went to college, but feel as if their child's immediate safety and survival is more important. It's not as if they completely ignore or disregard the importance of an education (as you imply), but it would be even harder for a kid to go to school or even college if they didn't have a place to live.

Every case is different, but I'm sure if you went down the line of parents who had children who didn't go to college or dropped out of school, you'd find that there were MANY other answers besides not caring.

 

[DC_DEEP]

I am the son of 2 elementary school drop outs and educated in public elementary/high school and private school universities. Academic scholarship to undergrad, paid for grad school by tending bar and doing landscaping.

Both of your parents were like, what, 4th grade dropouts?

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

Both of your parents were like, what, 4th grade dropouts?

My dad's father died in a coal mine accident and my dad went to work in a steel mill at age 14. My mom's dad was electrocuted in an industrial accident and my mom's grandma died like a month later when my mom was 13. I am unclear as to why.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

Did I say that was the only answer? Absolutely not. But you're talking as if every single person out there has the ability to go to college if they want to and that's simply not true at all. You list these dollar figures as if every person in America can afford it and that is also not true. You act as if the only thing a student has to worry about when they get into college is the tuition, and again, NOT TRUE.

You go ask a kid who has no choice but to live in a very poor, urbanized city where crime is high and the average income per household is under $25K a year. Where people have to REALLY worry about getting home safely, finding food to eat, paying the necessary bills to survive day to day and keeping a roof over their head. Sure, they may think about college. But to these people, even a state college at $3000 a semester is too much to afford!

Of course, the only excuse you have for these people is that they don't have parents who care enough that their kids get the proper education. Such an easy, over-simplified answer for those who essentially "got theirs" and don't give a damn if anyone else "gets some".



Like this makes a difference? It doesn't matter if you had two parents who didn't finish school. They still had you and made sure to enforce the importance of an education. And despite the dire situations you may have been raised around, you were able to keep focus and do what was right for you. Consider yourself one of the lucky ones. All I'm saying is that many parents would love to see their kids got a proper education and went to college, but feel as if their child's immediate safety and survival is more important. It's not as if they completely ignore or disregard the importance of an education (as you imply), but it would be even harder for a kid to go to school or even college if they didn't have a place to live.

Every case is different, but I'm sure if you went down the line of parents who had children who didn't go to college or dropped out of school, you'd find that there were MANY other answers besides not caring.

You missed the point. I illustrated the cost of college as a comparison to the cost of public elementary and high school education. College shoud be way more expensive. I don't expect a poor inner city kid to have $3000 for a year of college. I do wish the public schools of DC, with a budget of $13000 per child, to do a better job. You don't, so we will never agree.

 

[ZOS23xy]

Parents were to major component of education. This is no longer the case.

The ones who tend to do home schooling are conservative Christian Parents, who want to bring up children with their values.

Conclusion: Americans have forgotten their legacy, and have gotten lazy.

 

[DC_DEEP]

My dad's father died in a coal mine accident and my dad went to work in a steel mill at age 14. My mom's dad was electrocuted in an industrial accident and my mom's grandma died like a month later when my mom was 13. I am unclear as to why.

Wow, sorry to hear that. My parents went through school during the depression era; my Mom had to drop out for 2 years to help support her family, but went back and finished.

You missed the point. I illustrated the cost of college as a comparison to the cost of public elementary and high school education. College shoud be way more expensive. I don't expect a poor inner city kid to have $3000 for a year of college. I do wish the public schools of DC, with a budget of $13000 per child, to do a better job. You don't, so we will never agree.

I wish all the public schools would do a better job with the budgets they have, but I don't think taking money out of their budgets to fund vouchers is the answer. Nor do I think throwing more money into a leaky financial system is the answer.

You keep referring to the $13000 per child per year. That may be what shows on the balance sheets, but I'm still not convinced that's what is being spent... at least not on educating the children.

The DC schools and the DC city government are both NOTORIOUS for embezzled, diverted, and mismanaged money.

Stricter accountability of funding, less tolerance for truly disruptive or violent behavior, parent accountability, and less government interference would go a long way toward improving the educational system. Pay good teachers what they are actually worth. Making teaching a competitive profession couldn't hurt.

You also seem to be under the impression that teaching is a 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, 9 months a year job. It is not. When I finally stopped teaching, 15 years ago, I put in an average of 12 hours a day, sometimes 6 days a week, 45 weeks a year, for $20000. I had to get my education, my certification, and was responsible (on my own time) for continuing education, additional college credit hours, and 2 weekend workshops every month. It was hard work, but I loved it. The only reason I got out of teaching was that it was way too much work for the money. I was struggling to pay rent, utilities, groceries, plus my required continuing education. Well, that plus the government interference left me basically doing underpaid babysitting.

There should not be one single school policy maker on local school boards, state boards of education, or the national board, who does not rotate regularly back into the classroom as a teacher. Three years on the board, three years in the trenches.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

Wow, sorry to hear that. My parents went through school during the depression era; my Mom had to drop out for 2 years to help support her family, but went back and finished.
I wish all the public schools would do a better job with the budgets they have, but I don't think taking money out of their budgets to fund vouchers is the answer. Nor do I think throwing more money into a leaky financial system is the answer.

You keep referring to the $13000 per child per year. That may be what shows on the balance sheets, but I'm still not convinced that's what is being spent... at least not on educating the children.

The DC schools and the DC city government are both NOTORIOUS for embezzled, diverted, and mismanaged money.

Stricter accountability of funding, less tolerance for truly disruptive or violent behavior, parent accountability, and less government interference would go a long way toward improving the educational system. Pay good teachers what they are actually worth. Making teaching a competitive profession couldn't hurt.

You also seem to be under the impression that teaching is a 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, 9 months a year job. It is not. When I finally stopped teaching, 15 years ago, I put in an average of 12 hours a day, sometimes 6 days a week, 45 weeks a year, for $20000. I had to get my education, my certification, and was responsible (on my own time) for continuing education, additional college credit hours, and 2 weekend workshops every month. It was hard work, but I loved it. The only reason I got out of teaching was that it was way too much work for the money. I was struggling to pay rent, utilities, groceries, plus my required continuing education. Well, that plus the government interference left me basically doing underpaid babysitting.

There should not be one single school policy maker on local school boards, state boards of education, or the national board, who does not rotate regularly back into the classroom as a teacher. Three years on the board, three years in the trenches.

I never said anything about teaching. I know personally teachers who reach into their own purses and wallets to get supplies for their classrooms. Its not the good teachers, its the system. The teachers unions should share some of the blame. Good teachers should be highly paid. However how exactly will that occur as long as the unions fight for the lowest common denominator?

$75000 seems like a nice place to start a teacher. It should go up from there. Unless you introduce some form of competition, IMO, excellent teachers will always be underpaid.

 

[simcha]

First, SIMCHA, I love you. There's nothing in your posts on this thread with which I can find fault.....

....If you notice, the most negative comments (those blaming everything and everyone EXCEPT el Presidente Arbusto) tend to be 100% straight and in their mid 30's. I'm certain there's a story to be mined from those stats.

Regardless, please keep slugging away and working in public education. I worship at your feet for being so brave to continue.

Kisses and hugs and praise to you! I love ya' to death!

I actually work with public funds (HUD funds and Medi-Cal funds and City of Berkeley funds) to help homeless transitional aged youth (18-25) to become effective members of society these days. I'm not directly involved in public education anymore. I miss working with my elementary school cute little monsters. Somehow the more disturbed they were, the more I'd love them. I'm not sure what that says about me. :wink:

And yeah, it is interesting to see that thirty something straight guys who will be having or who already have a brood of their own are so steadfastly willing to skimp on children. I chalk it up to being part of Generation X that got indoctrinated by that great liar, Ronald Reagan in the 1980s while we were 10 to 18 year-olds. Somehow I missed the programming. I found him repulsive then and I would love to spit on his grave now. I've found myself in Dixon, IL, his birthplace, flashing my middle finger at the signs that say, "Proud Birthplace of Ronald Reagan." I'm ashamed that he was born in my home state of Illinois and Governor of the current state I call home and president of my home country. He was a liar and a traitor as are his disciples GHWB and GWB. All you have to do is remember Ollie North (Iran-Contra), building up Saddam Hussein under Reagan, Iraq War Part I, and Iraq War Part II and you see what criminals these neocons are.

I thank goodness that my generation of Reagan-worshipers are far outnumbered by Generation Y and the Millenials who have the sense to turn their backs on the neocon movement.

Family values, my ass...

 

[B_JasonDawgxxx]

Why and who are these children being left behind??????