Open or Closed?

Principessa

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Open relationships seldom work ending in a bad way. To have an honest talk about sexual needs and desires is a better option.


True, but you're a man who has been around the block and knows about life and more importantly women. :cool:

He's still a kid and quite clueless. It's true he may deserve some credit for asking the question; but he needs to ask this question of the girls he wants to fuck. Cause let's face it that's all he wants to do. He isn't looking for love or even a relationship. What he doesn't realize because he hasn't encountered the right sort of girl yet is that may think exactly like him.
 

Oncamale28

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We should probably be more true to inner self than what society has put on us for all sorts of self-serving reasons.

Relations can exists and thrive with all sorts of ranges of sexual activity, problems seem to most occur when the two partners have quite different views on sexuality.

Talk frankly with your partner early on in the relationship, any relationship to suceed is based on trust, trust in magonomy, trust in lets have a threeway, trust in its ok to have side sex but be home every night, etc. Its their and your life, seek a partner that can you can fulfill your dreams, dont settle for less...
 

visceraltuning

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Um, no... it based in simple evolutionary theory... CULTURAL EVOLUTION.
I When I say that western civilization has been in ascendancy.. .I am not really speaking of military or economic ascendancy, into which a lot of elements play... I am speaking of cultural memes such as single pair marriage, the rights of the individual, etc.

I'm not saying that you knew you were indoctrinated in Modernization Theory, as are most Americans, also known as Culture of Poverty Theory when applied to US domestic policy. However, you are evangelizing it, as is demonstrated by your apologetic instrument, social darwinism. Heck, I told something similar to an Indian woman when I was on a medical mission trip to Mumbai (Bombay) a few years back.

However, western society is not innately superior; they most certainly are not the only people that know how to secure clean water :cool:. It's just that up to this point the west has had so much buying power due to artificially low prices that this doctrine and the accompanied behavior has been sustainable with people like you and I benefiting from it. I am not going to lie and say that I didn't enjoy the Mall, my MTV, my parent's big house, driving as a teenage at $1.89 per gallon (doesn't that sound sooo good), and being able to go to Disneyland so often it got boring. If fact, I will probably find myself desparately defending it in a few years because I want something similar to that for my kids (minus the obesity).

However, I also recognize that I have to wake-up and realize that the west got to where it is by having people sign on the dotted line without reading the small print. For example:

- If people in US Ghettos were not addicted to street drugs and suddenly became employable rather than unproductive and primed for prison then the US job market would be flooded with labor, which would cause a drop in salaries and wages. Furthermore, if the Federal Reserve tried to move towards full employment of these people by releasing money from the Federal Reserve which lowers interest rates, then there would be mass inflation. In effect, it is more cost effective for people in the suburbs to tolerate ghettos and to pay slightly higher taxes to pay for people to stay in prison than it is for economic instruments to be used to employ them.

- If hungary angry boys in Honduras were not addicted to sniffing glue made by US manufacturers, who could curb this by adding Oil of Mustard to their glue the way Testro has been adding it to model airplane glue in the US since the late 1960s to stop white middle-class boys from sniffing, then these boys from honduras would probably cause a revolution that would cause the price of US coffee to shoot-up so that a cup of coffee at home would cost almost as much as at Starbucks.

- India had thriving textile manufacturing prior the British arrival (and if you think the Indias can't make a rug then you are insane) but the British also realized that the India also had several other resources that could be more effectively exploited if textiles did not use up the available man power. So the British dismantled India Textile manufacturing and shipped it over to labor rich resource poor England, then had Indians grow tea and spices as well as mine for metals and buy their fabric from England at a relatively high price. This maneuver actually even has an academic economic name, comparative advantage.

Does that mean that the west has to or is going to stop? No.

However, in order to maneuver in this world that GWB took the lid off by doing an open war, occupation and attempted colonization of Iraq rather than the covert operations preferred by Reagan, Bush Sr., and Bill Clinton, it is vital that people recognize it at least privately, as insidious as it may sound (because it is).
 

Phil Ayesho

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Sorry... you still don't get it...

You are spouting PC crap. The idea that all cultures are "equally" important, effective or valid is "feel good" multicultural malarky.

Its not "modernization theory"... the Actions of GWB do not even factor into what I am talking about... they are as significant to cultural evolution as is a boil on your butt to genetic evolution.

Cultural evolution is simple scientific fact. ( and not in the "social darwinism, sense, either)

More people live longer healthier and happier lives today than ever before in human history.
This is a fact.
Human society has evolved. We are not the Hunter gatherers we once were... nor are we the agriculturalists we were just 150 years ago...

And the ONLY difference between US and the peasants of southeast asia from 200 years ago are the IDEAS in our heads.
How we were trained to see and think and react to the world.



I am not saying that the civilization of the "west" is "better"...

I am saying that the current dominant CULTURE comprises the best, most effective and most useful ideas from ALL PREVIOUS CULTURES.

The civilization of the West is the one that has assimilated the ideas (from whatever sources) that work best in the world of today.

And by "work best" I mean they offer the individual the greatest power, influence, access to resources and security.

Western culture, today, has memes from the Indus civilization of India, as well as from the Mogul empire that pre-dated British colonialism.

The contact between India and Britain MIXED their memes just as if they had mated.
What survived was a british culture changed by Indian ideas... and an Indian Culture changed by british ideas.

The fact that modern India came more to resemble Western culture in certain aspects... (like governmentally) simply proves that free enterpirse and representational government ( british memes ) were MORE effective at providing for the Indian people than were their previous ideas.

Those previous ideas may have worked really well in a world without railroads and telephones... but the 'environment' has changed and their culture had to change to reflect that.
India has not "become british"... they have only adopted those ideas that seem to work BETTER.

While colonialism initially IMPOSED these ideas on them, as the Indian people have gradually come to embrace them, especially recently, India is really starting to take off.


Think of Gandhi. He is NOT Indian. His example was entirely the result of a Man raised indian, educated in Britain, who lived in a British colony in Africa.
His influence was the merging of the best of British memes with the best of Indian memes... more than any other individual... he embarrassed the british out of empire.


Move beyond your parochial classifications of merit and worth... beyond your geo-political world view and into a far less nationalistic perspective on how culture works for the individual.
Because that is the agent of selection for cultural evolution. Individuals within cultures change their cultures by changing their attitudes and ideas. One person changing one idea, one at a time.
And they select those ideas based upon what is working best in their interest.

I don't give a damn about American culture, per se... nor western culture...
They are merely amalgams of other varied and prior sets of ideas.

As cultures diverge and develop new ideas, they then come in contact with others and the peoples of those cultures try out each other's ideas...

The ideas that seem to work for them they keep, and those that do not seem to work get discarded.


Human history is a long chain of cultural changes... that change to reflect changing circumstances...
The ideas that really worked well for nomadic desert dwellers are not as effective for the rich world traders they have become...

The ideas that worked for an insular Asia will not serve best an Asia connected to every other nation.

And the ideas that worked for a feudal Europe also fell by the wayside.

the American modification of what was a predominantly british culture was largely the result of colonial exposure to the democratic societies of native americans.


And eventually... a thousand years from now, barring technological collapse, the entire interconnected earth will have only one planetwide human culture, regardless of what languages are spoken.

That culture will NOT be current western culture...

It will be the set of ideas that provide the best possible life for the most possible people given the conditions of the world at that time.


Sorry... but freedom IS a better idea for human beings than slavery or serfdom.

The social freedom to rise as your efforts merit IS better than the imposed hierarchy of caste, or class.
Every statistic on human health, happiness, longevity, productivity, and tolerance proves this to be true.

It does not matter where the ideas comes from...
As we have access to them, we will select the ones that make our lives better.
 

Phil Ayesho

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No, you don't sound like a stone buddha. You sound far more like a guy that would say to himself WWJD, which normally translates to self-righteous prix hypocrite. I met a lot of them, even when I went to a very good Christian Liberal Arts College, Promise Keepers, etc.

Seriously, you should listen to yourself because some of your statements are upchuck provoking.

Not only that but I have met men with far more liberal values than yours that are way more faithful to their spouses, not because they care about their self-image, but because they are in a good mutually fulfilling relationship.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
You clearly don't read very well if you think my position has anything to do with WWJD...

Any person who never is tempted by the interest of others is either medically defective, too repulsive to garner interest from others, or simply lying.

the question is, on what basis do you refuse that interest?

You condemn my answer, but offer no basis of your own.


And, seriously, you have no idea how faithful any man you have ever met actually is. Men with any moral conscience at all tend to lie about such things.


Upchuck all you want.... wanting to be worthy of your mate IS the basis of a sound relationship...
It means you have high regard for your mate... and want to be worthy of high regard in return.

That is the definition of "mutually fullfilling", whether you are competent to realize it or not.

Perhaps, rather than puking, you should try and define the reasons why YOU behave morally...

If not for your own sense of personal integrity ( as in my case) then why?

Please, be specific.


Maybe when you are a little older, you will be a little less vomit prone.

And will have read more than two books on geo-politics...
 

Phil Ayesho

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Acutally this is a movement of whig history, the movement towards perpetual progress and the triumph of man, which is actually something that most in the science of evolution refute.

Also wrong.

Sheesh... so many froshmen college courses...

Cultural evolution is real. Read up on Meme theory.

The science of evolution states that ANY iterative process subject to selection MUST evolve.

People figuring out what to believe is both iterative, and subject to selection based upon the ideas that work best for them.

Culture evolves.


The nature of selection is to Better fit that which evolves to its environment or to a purpose.
Because the selection process in cultural evolution is intelligent- that is, you are selecting the ideas that benefit you, personally, the most- cultural evolution better fits culture to the purpose of providing the best possible life for the individual.

thus cultural evolution is not seeking "progress"... it is seeking solutions that work for the individual.

If going back to nomadic hunting WORKED better ... that is the direction we would move.

Human history has been one very long process of developing cultural constructs that focus ever more on the rights of the individual, the freedom of the individual...
as MLK said:
"the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice"

Contrary to the apocalytics, life is actually getting better for the individual.

Governments, politics... all of that is inconsequential in the greater scheme...
they are just means to the end of maximizing the individual benefit of society across the whole human population.

All of human history is proof...
 

visceraltuning

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Sorry... you still don't get it...

You are spouting PC crap. The idea that all cultures are "equally" important, effective or valid is "feel good" multicultural malarky.

I get EVERYTHING YOU SAY, and I am not saying all cultures are equal. Quite frankly, each culture has its own issues.

Its not "modernization theory"... the Actions of GWB do not even factor into what I am talking about... they are as significant to cultural evolution as is a boil on your butt to genetic evolution.

Cultural evolution is simple scientific fact. ( and not in the "social darwinism, sense, either)

Yeah, this has never bothered me. Culture does change, and that whole concept is not exactly a grand revelation.

More people live longer healthier and happier lives today than ever before in human history. This is a fact.

No, only some people are living longer, healthier and happier lives today. Currently, of the 6 billion people in the world, nearly 3 billion live at a subsistence level, that means earn enough to eat with no discretionary expenditures (the same as Hunter Gatherers). About 1 billion people are very poor (not enough to eat, live on less than $1/day). There are a few “super-rich”, but most of us in the First World are happily middle class, that means subsistence with some discretionary expenditures.

Human society has evolved. We are not the Hunter gatherers we once were... nor are we the agriculturalists we were just 150 years ago...

150 years ago many people had never planted a crop in their entire lives. In my family, we were merchant traders, and I have friends whose families did manufacturing and others that did banking.

And the ONLY difference between US and the peasants of southeast asia from 200 years ago are the IDEAS in our heads.
How we were trained to see and think and react to the world.

Nothing earth shattering in this statement.

I am not saying that the civilization of the "west" is "better"...

I am saying that the current dominant CULTURE comprises the best, most effective and most useful ideas from ALL PREVIOUS CULTURES.

The civilization of the West is the one that has assimilated the ideas (from whatever sources) that work best in the world of today.

Most of the time west does not integrate the best of other cultures but the best technology of other peoples (ie manufacturing equipment, the compass, gun powder, the telescope, etc.), not culture things like matriarchy, arranged marriages, etc.

And by "work best" I mean they offer the individual the greatest power, influence, access to resources and security.

Western culture, today, has memes from the Indus civilization of India, as well as from the Mogul empire that pre-dated British colonialism.

The contact between India and Britain MIXED their memes just as if they had mated.
What survived was a british culture changed by Indian ideas... and an Indian Culture changed by british ideas.

The fact that modern India came more to resemble Western culture in certain aspects... (like governmentally) simply proves that free enterpirse and representational government ( british memes ) were MORE effective at providing for the Indian people than were their previous ideas.

There is not indication of that. India, prior to the British arrival, was made up of several small kingdoms with their own language, culture and form of government, and were doing quite well. There was absolutely not need for British presence.

Those previous ideas may have worked really well in a world without railroads and telephones... but the 'environment' has changed and their culture had to change to reflect that.
India has not "become british"... they have only adopted those ideas that seem to work BETTER.

While colonialism initially IMPOSED these ideas on them, as the Indian people have gradually come to embrace them, especially recently, India is really starting to take off.

The change in environment (ie telephones, railroads, etc.) was just as imposed as ideas, and their purpose was more to prevent competition than aid anyone.

Think of Gandhi. He is NOT Indian. His example was entirely the result of a Man raised indian, educated in Britain, who lived in a British colony in Africa.
His influence was the merging of the best of British memes with the best of Indian memes... more than any other individual... he embarrassed the british out of empire.

When I think of Gandhi, I think why did a man of Indian decent have to be educated in Britain and live in an African colony when there was a huge library of Indian literature and technology that would have been more than sufficient in educating him. (I actually have friends at Columbia and Berkeley that are doing translations of Indians works that coincide with much of western thinking but have never been translated into English).

Move beyond your parochial classifications of merit and worth...

You were using parochial classifications of merit and worth. I said no such thing.

. . . beyond your geo-political world view and into a far less nationalistic perspective on how culture works for the individual.

Yes, this is part of my position. I know that people in the Czech Republic speak German as their first language, there are minority languages in French and Spain that were actually just as important to the development of western culture, if not more, than French and Spanish, and the Arabic spoken in Egypt is not the same as spoken in other Arabic speaking nations.

Because that is the agent of selection for cultural evolution. Individuals within cultures change their cultures by changing their attitudes and ideas. One person changing one idea, one at a time.
And they select those ideas based upon what is working best in their interest.

No, only educated people do. Others typically conform to their culture or are ostracized.

Human history is a long chain of cultural changes... that change to reflect changing circumstances...
The ideas that really worked well for nomadic desert dwellers are not as effective for the rich world traders they have become...

The ideas that worked for an insular Asia will not serve best an Asia connected to every other nation.

Protected markets in South Korea facilitated by the US allowed it to become an economical model meant to embarrass their neighbors. Insular situation actually often help by allowing the development of infrastructure; the US would not have had a totally compatible telephone system that exists today if it weren't for US Congress sanctioning AT&T's pre-80s monopoly.

And the ideas that worked for a feudal Europe also fell by the wayside.

the American modification of what was a predominantly british culture was largely the result of colonial exposure to the democratic societies of native americans.

American Colonies were being exploited by the British the same as other colonies. However, colonist did not tolerate it because they were Britains own people, so instead of having their wealth drafted back to Britain, they cut off the shipment of raw materials from the North East Colonies to Britain, which had been grown in the Southern Colonies, and instead set up their own Textile Mills in the North East using technology that was smuggled from Britain.

And eventually... a thousand years from now, barring technological collapse, the entire interconnected earth will have only one planetwide human culture, regardless of what languages are spoken.

That culture will NOT be current western culture...

It will be the set of ideas that provide the best possible life for the most possible people given the conditions of the world at that time.

Sorry... but freedom IS a better idea for human beings than slavery or serfdom.

The social freedom to rise as your efforts merit IS better than the imposed hierarchy of caste, or class.
Every statistic on human health, happiness, longevity, productivity, and tolerance proves this to be true.

It does not matter where the ideas comes from...
As we have access to them, we will select the ones that make our lives better.

Are you freakin kidding me? What you are talking about is an open cultural economy, which rarely produces the "best" or even "better" of anything, but usually just what a people group is marginal willingness to pay for, that is what is cheap, easy and won't kill you fast enough to prevent you from having children.
 

visceraltuning

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You have no idea what you are talking about.
You clearly don't read very well if you think my position has anything to do with WWJD...

Any person who never is tempted by the interest of others is either medically defective, too repulsive to garner interest from others, or simply lying.

Oh, that right. You haven't quoted the Bible in this thread.

And, seriously, you have no idea how faithful any man you have ever met actually is. Men with any moral conscience at all tend to lie about such things.

LOL

Upchuck all you want.... wanting to be worthy of your mate IS the basis of a sound relationship...

It means you have high regard for your mate... and want to be worthy of high regard in return.

That is the definition of "mutually fullfilling", whether you are competent to realize it or not.

"Wanting to be worthy of your mate" idealizes your mate to the point that the mate become a perfect object rather than a person. I do not want to be worthy of my mate, I want my mate and I to be mutually accepting of each other for how we really are; this is called intimacy.

Perhaps, rather than puking, you should try and define the reasons why YOU behave morally...


If not for your own sense of personal integrity ( as in my case) then why?

Please, be specific.

I behave as I do because I would like to have my own needs fulfilled while, if at all possible, never taking the smile off of someone else's face. Unfortunately, I live in an environment where that is not possible given the resources available and the competition for those resource, so I have conceded that at my very best I can do it as little as possible. Oddly enough, unfortunately it does not stop others from envying me, even friends who have witnessed how hard I have worked and have put in no such effort themselves.

I will say that the puritanical values of my upbringing did give me some tools related to self-discipline that have made me competitive in the US. However, I have also been in environments where such tools were not even necessary but the people were still quite happy. I have not totally rejected my upbringing but have come to terms with it.

Maybe when you are a little older, you will be a little less vomit prone.

And will have read more than two books on geo-politics...

Been there, done that, moved on to academic journals. I know there are other perspective out there, most certainly more than the ones were have been pushing.
 

Phil Ayesho

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Still spouting tired old manifestos...


You really don't get it.

Try to move beyond the assignation of blame... the categorization of any culture's actions into good or bad.
The intent of the US involvement in Korea has no real meaning, nor lasting importance. Its totally irrelevant. Its like obsessing over how the plague got to Europe when the discussion is about the EFFECT of the plague on the value of labor...


All that matters, culturally... is that an insular asian culture got exposed to a bunch of new and different ideas... it makes no difference by what mechanism...
And they have assimilated those ideas that worked better at providing the greatest possible security and power for the individual.


Recognize that Cultures serve the purpose of providing security and resources for their adherents... and that, because adherents can evaluate what is working for them and what is not, cultures tend to mix, and clash, and the people involved change their sets of ideas.

The mix of ideas that serves the survival of the individuals best is the mix that will flourish and form a new culture. It will outcompete the other mixes of idea.

Everything else... including your parochial judgments of nationalistic intent, are immaterial...

Human culture is evolving toward maximizing the security, longevity and power of the maximum number of individuals, world wide...
And nothing you can do, nothing any nation can do, can stop this process.

Just Being a nation... is nothing but a small part of this process.




And as to why you behave morally?

Do you recognize that your answer is exactly the same as mine. You are moral for your own sense of personal integrity?


As to your ideas of intimacy... IT would be great if seeing each other for what we are and accepting that worked long term...

But its not how folks fall in love... folks falling in love see each other romantically...

It would be nice if this romantic idealism always led to a more mature and accepting recognition of each others faults...

But it seldom does...

Unfortunately... you or your mate will elect to see the other as something they are not.

They will mistake the other's actions, intents and motivations... and that will color everything they think of their mate.

Since we simply can not know each other, really... since all we can know of each other are the judgments we make of what we observe...

I argue for choosing to interpret your mate's actions in the best possible light...

You can go ahead and trust that she will never believe a negative thing about you... that she will always understand and accept your faults...

And maybe she will...

But in my long experience... if you don't make the effort to see your mate as someone good... and make an effort to be worthy of a good mate... then you will find your regard for one another drifts, decays, and erodes.


But then... you keep on with what you're doing...

I have my doubts, but maybe it will work out...


PS- an yes I quote the bible... I sometimes quote the Q'ran, the Bahagavad Gita, or the Sutras.
Because, unlike a lot of folks, I have read them.

That I think religion is predicated upon delusion does not mean that the authors of these works did not come up with some genuine insights...


Y'know... movies are make believe, too....
that doesn't stop me from quoting a great line form one when its apropos.