Paris

I've always found the people in Paris to be very nice. The thing they don't like is having people come up to them and start talking English. You're in France after all. the language is French. I found even if you made a lame attempt at french the people were more than helpful.
 
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I've always found the people in Paris to be very nice. The thing they don't like is having people come up to them and start talking English. You're in France after all. the language is French. I found even if you made a lame attempt at french the people were more than helpful.

Ditto. I was in France for 18 months ... mostly in the south, which is known to be friendlier than Paris.
But I went to Paris several times and found them entirely welcoming people.
Mind you, I was speaking French as best I could, and only rarely reverting to English.
They really appreciated that.
(I also got the impression that the French speak much more English than they want to let on.)
 
I've always found the people in Paris to be very nice. The thing they don't like is having people come up to them and start talking English. You're in France after all. the language is French. I found even if you made a lame attempt at french the people were more than helpful.

I understand that, I speak Spanish, but I don't like people talking to me in Spanish without asking me if I speak it first.

One time a girl asked me if I spoke Spanish, I said yes and she started babbling in either Portuguese or Brazilian. Now that I do not understand. I can pick up words in Italian better than Portuguese.
 
Ditto. I was in France for 18 months ... mostly in the south, which is known to be friendlier than Paris.
But I went to Paris several times and found them entirely welcoming people.
Mind you, I was speaking French as best I could, and only rarely reverting to English.
They really appreciated that.
(I also got the impression that the French speak much more English than they want to let on.)

Aside from the fact that virtually everyone in Paris is part of the language police (mind your genders and subjunctive), I found them, with very few exceptions, to be polite, intelligent, engaging and intensely curious about the US. Their misconceptions about our lives and culture are 95% due to the idiotic shows they see dubbed into French on TV, or in blockbuster Hollywood crapola.

As regards their disdain for English, it comes from several places:
*England and France were blood enemies for hundreds of years;
*English is especially difficult for most Francophones to pronounce correctly;
*As the language police, they loathe linguistic errors and are fearful of committing them in any foreign language, not just English;
*They are deeply insecure that French culture is fading from France, not without good reason;
*Most (not all, but most) Americans are the worst tourists in the world: loud, arrogant, vastly condescending.

It took me about six months of complete immersion into Parisian life to lose most of my Americanisms, most especially my accent. Once I could speak French with a natural fluidity and a minimum of grammar or pronunciation errors, no one knew I wasn't French unless I told them so.

I understood precisely why some Americans have such a rough time in Paris: they were just too fucking rude. On more than one occasion, when accosted (grabbed, not approached) by someone on the sidewalk or on a Metro platform demanding, in English, for information, I was more likely than not to respond in French that I didn't understand.
 
I wasn't rude until they were rude to me. Never met such a bunch of self-satisfied pricks in my life. If French culture consists of Parisians (and plenty of Parisians think it does) then I'll be happy to see it join the Aztec on the heap of civilizations I'm happy to see erased.
 
I like paris always have. I met a pen pal online from paris.We chatted for over a year.He finally came to the states and ended up staying with me for 3 days.Such a sweetie pie.I cant wait to see him again
 
Aside from the fact that virtually everyone in Paris is part of the language police (mind your genders and subjunctive), I found them, with very few exceptions, to be polite, intelligent, engaging and intensely curious about the US. Their misconceptions about our lives and culture are 95% due to the idiotic shows they see dubbed into French on TV, or in blockbuster Hollywood crapola.

And that said, they know far more about North America than we know about them.

As regards their disdain for English, it comes from several places:
*England and France were blood enemies for hundreds of years;
*English is especially difficult for most Francophones to pronounce correctly;
*As the language police, they loathe linguistic errors and are fearful of committing them in any foreign language, not just English;
*They are deeply insecure that French culture is fading from France, not without good reason;
*Most (not all, but most) Americans are the worst tourists in the world: loud, arrogant, vastly condescending.

Yup.

It took me about six months of complete immersion into Parisian life to lose most of my Americanisms, most especially my accent. Once I could speak French with a natural fluidity and a minimum of grammar or pronunciation errors, no one knew I wasn't French unless I told them so.

Then you did extremely well, Bbucko.
My structure was good, and I was flattered on my accent ... but I would be kidding you if I said my linguistic origins weren't quite apparent to everyone.

I understood precisely why some Americans have such a rough time in Paris: they were just too fucking rude. On more than one occasion, when accosted (grabbed, not approached) by someone on the sidewalk or on a Metro platform demanding, in English, for information, I was more likely than not to respond in French that I didn't understand.

I spent several months in Aix, a university town which attracts a lot of American students who have come to apprendre la langue de Molière.
They were often so loud and rude, so oblivious to the fact that the French have an altogether more reserved and elegant way of impinging upon each other's space ... that I was embarrassed.
It was like an invasion of feral children.
You did well, though. Mes félicitations, Bbhucko.
 
And that said, they know far more about North America than we know about them.

Indeed, mon vieux.

Then you did extremely well, Bbucko.
My structure was good, and I was flattered on my accent ... but I would be kidding you if I said my linguistic origins weren't quite apparent to everyone.

Complete disclosure: My French perplexed people somewhat. They knew I wasn't Parisian or Belgian; but my fluency was so natural and mistakes of gender so few that I was presumed to be either from the south (Toulouse: my first French teacher was from the south) or, more likely, Swiss. But no one believed that I was Amerlook.

My lover, Jean-Marc, was instrumental in this. He would batter every phrase out of my mouth until it was parfait by his mercurial, exacting standards. Six year's study in the high school (and one very intensive month at the Alliance Française when I'd first arrived) taught me all I needed to know about the syntax and verb conjugation. But without JM's constant critiques I'd have never mastered the "ear", let alone the accent.

My access to English-language material was also very limited: The Herald Tribune, an occasional Newsweek and the half-dozen or so books I'd brought with me. As neither JM, nor any of his friends and family spoke enough English to feel comfortable speaking it around me, I was quickly forced to think, not just speak, in French.

When I started dreaming in French, the rest was toast.

I spent several months in Aix, a university town which attracts a lot of American students who have come to apprendre la langue de Molière.
They were often so loud and rude, so oblivious to the fact that the French have an altogether more reserved and elegant way of impinging upon each other's space ... that I was embarrassed.
It was like an invasion of feral children.
You did well, though. Mes félicitations, Bbhucko.

It is impossible to describe how incomprehensibly inane, forward and cretinous most Americans seem to the French, but that sums it up as well as anything I've ever heard expressed in English or French.

I wasn't rude until they were rude to me. Never met such a bunch of self-satisfied pricks in my life. If French culture consists of Parisians (and plenty of Parisians think it does) then I'll be happy to see it join the Aztec on the heap of civilizations I'm happy to see erased.

On this we'll have to agree to disagree, my good friend.

The older I get, the more the world seems to divide up into those who find the French captivating and those who find them loathsome. And as much as I might disagree with the latter, I'd be lying if I said that I didn't understand their point of view.

French culture is, first of all, historic. It was considered the very epitome of elegance and refinement from the mid-17th century until well into the 20th. There was no major trend in architecture, art, fashion or design that was even remotely comparable for almost 300 years (excepting, occasionally and fleetingly, the English).

Their traditions of theater, from Moliere to Music Hall, were in advance of anything produced elsewhere (except, of course, Shakespeare). Vaudeville is, after all, a French word.

During the Second Empire, Haussman rebuilt Paris into, what has been rightfully called, the capital of the 19th Century, and is the city that remains so (coldly) beautiful today. Any discussion of the development of cinema, aeronautical development or the internal combustion engine without discussing the French is incomplete.

Their cuisine is second to none, and the availability of the highest-quality produce and meats in Paris makes New York look like one big Hamburger Heaven. Their bakeries (whether boulangeries or confiseries ) produce the best food of its type I've ever eaten.

Their wines remain among the very best produced anywhere, both in terms of quality, price and value (although when I'm especially poor, a nice Chilean red will suffice).

The French Revolution was, arguably, of much greater importance to world history than our own. They were the first people to refute absolutism and the grip of the church by abolishing monarchy and confiscating all church property (neither Henry VIII nor Cromwell went that far).

From Descartes to Foucault, has any one country been so consistent in its contributions to the field of philosophy?

As late as 1972, when I started seventh grade, we were given two options: either remedial reading or French. It didn't seem to occur to the school administrators that, at some point, I might want to converse with the rest of our hemisphere. French was the option because it was considered the second language of the world (after English). It was considered the language of diplomacy because no one else can quite say "fuck off" with such wit and style. It's still the second language of the UN.

I've always found it telling that, although the word "elite" is French, the French word for "snob" is "snob".

But no one sneers quite like a Parisian on his high horse, and no one is shriller than those horrible women who work in every boulangerie in the city (JM called them bonnes-femmes and it was so not a compliment). They are frequently abrasive, love to argue, are frugal to the point of extreme parsimoniousness, hypochondriacs, depressive and incredibly pessimistic.

The fetishize "the innocence of childhood" and children in general to a point that I always found cloying, creepy and just a tiny bit pedo.

French popular music, with a handful of exceptions unknown outside France, Quebec and parts of Africa (maybe), is dreadful, and has been since the 1960s. And even in the music of the last "golden age", without an excellent working knowledge of French, the poetry of Brel or Brassens or Dutronc is meaningless.

Much of the "charm" of French, most especially Parisian, culture seems as stilted and affected as a minuet: the customary bisous of four kisses, left, right, left, right is an excellent example. And without the benefit of an education into French history, all seems kinda dusty and dry and has-been.

French fashion has been meaningless since the 60s (except, occasionally, YSL). Dior and Chanel mean expensive sunglasses with gaudy logos to most people, and Louis Vuitton has been the very essence of meaningless branding since the mid-80s, at least. The average Parisienne is no better dressed than your average shopgirl working in a mall in the suburbs of a medium-sized, mid-western city.

Contemporary French architecture is an abomination, contemporary French art is irrelevant. And French adventures in technology are, largely, failures. The Concorde stopped running years ago and their own precocious precursor to the Internet (Minitel) went nowhere (but it was all in French, so of course it would).

The antipathy Americans have for the French (and vice-versa) has certainly never been higher than it is right now, but it's symptomatic of American relations with nearly the entire world. Because of their long-standing (Imperialistic) ties with the Arab world, they didn't drink the Kool-Aid offered by the Americans and English just before we invaded Iraq and were rewarded with "Freedom Fries" (as if you and I don't both know that French Fries are Belgian). As Scott McClellan seems to have confirmed, they were right.
 
Well stated bbucko:

The French don't spill French blood abroad. That's what the foreign legion is for.

If the French are wise in diplomacy it's because they have a perverse view of how to run a military organization. It took a foreigner to get the French to take over Europe. Corsicans are foreigners; just ask a Frenchman.

What I can credit the French for is the TGV. Best train system in Europe. Jacques Derrida is the paragon of postmodern philosophy, and while you may find their fashions trite, I think there is some spark in the couture range. Chanel is going through a transition period so I won't count them out just yet.

Otherwise the French are moribund and insular, resistant to any change, and shooting themselves in the foot in the process.

I think it perverse to admire a people for their witty ability to express xenophobic disdain.

Americans may not like the French but then nobody else does either. It's not like we're alone in that boat.

I do admire French culture and have spoken here at LPSG about how much I like the usual French people outside of Paris. I think your paintbrush criticism of their present cultural situation is too bleak, but I think their social issues are far larger than you mention. Paris is a stunning city, one of the most amazing there is, however it's full of Parisiennes who appear to enjoy nothing so much as insulting, defrauding, dismissing, or otherwise just shitting on anyone who isn't one of them. Egalite my ass.
 
Well stated bbucko:

The French don't spill French blood abroad. That's what the foreign legion is for.

If the French are wise in diplomacy it's because they have a perverse view of how to run a military organization. It took a foreigner to get the French to take over Europe. Corsicans are foreigners; just ask a Frenchman.

What I can credit the French for is the TGV. Best train system in Europe. Jacques Derrida is the paragon of postmodern philosophy, and while you may find their fashions trite, I think there is some spark in the couture range. Chanel is going through a transition period so I won't count them out just yet.

Otherwise the French are moribund and insular, resistant to any change, and shooting themselves in the foot in the process.

I think it perverse to admire a people for their witty ability to express xenophobic disdain.

Americans may not like the French but then nobody else does either. It's not like we're alone in that boat.

I do admire French culture and have spoken here at LPSG about how much I like the usual French people outside of Paris. I think your paintbrush criticism of their present cultural situation is too bleak, but I think their social issues are far larger than you mention. Paris is a stunning city, one of the most amazing there is, however it's full of Parisiennes who appear to enjoy nothing so much as insulting, defrauding, dismissing, or otherwise just shitting on anyone who isn't one of them. Egalite my ass.

It took both too long and not long enough for me to write the post above, Jason. I'm feeling kinda cloudy-headed tonight and should have either posted something much briefer or waited until tomorrow and posted something more thought-through and less extemporaneous.

Like so much else in life, I am very ambivalent toward mes chers amis, the French. And so much of what comes spilling out when I pause to consider Paris and my time spent there is shaded by my mourning of JM.

You are absolutely right about the TGV. I took it on a subsequent visit in 1993 and it was fabulous. I wish we had such an option here in the US, but even in the Washington DC/Boston corridor, high-speed rail remains a dream.

One thing I neglected to mention, BTW, was the fact that, despite having almost no money for most of the time I spent there, life in Paris was incomparably richer, more convenient and much more pleasant (JM's death notwithstanding) than life in Boston or New York, to say nothing of New Haven or here in SoFla. There is a certain rhythm and flow to life there that is more humane and relaxed.

And, despite its post-war slip, Paris is still one of the world's cultural capitals, just no longer the only one.

I've always compared the beauty of Paris to the beauty of Catherine Deneuve: Dreamlike, unchanging and unattainable, but cold, distant and highly predictable. Allowing for class differences within the city and its neighborhoods, Paris remains startlingly, uniformly Paris from one end to the other.

But there are different sections and very different attitudes depending on where you find yourself. I avoided the Champs-Elysees, the area around the Louvre, the Eiffel Tower and the 16th Arrondissement whenever possible. It was expensive, crowded and not always safe from pickpockets.

I lived in the central south-eastern part of the city, just outside the Place de la Nation, which was much less pretentious and quieter (though still very Parisian). For nightlife I'd go to the Marais for a couple of beers, or one of the seedier dives near Bastille within walking distance to Nation. I would spend hours exploring the 9th Arrondissement (the area running from the Grands Boulevards to Montmartre), or gawking at the whores on the Rue St Denis or just spending some quality melancholy time at Père Lachaise.

If you want to see beautiful parks, don't bother with the Luxembourg or Tuileries (though they are lovely), instead go to Buttes Chaumont in the 19th, or Montsouris in the 14th or Monceau with its lovely fake ruins in the 8th.

Paris is indeed full of the most appalling examples of womanhood I've ever encountered, and much as you described:

...however it's full of Parisiennes who appear to enjoy nothing so much as insulting, defrauding, dismissing, or otherwise just shitting on anyone who isn't one of them. Egalite my ass.

French men, whether gay or straight, are surprisingly blatant in their misogyny, and it took me a short while to figure out why. It is easy (though not extremely wise) to form negative opinions when so many of the women there are churlish, vicious, mean-spirited, angry, despondent, curt, emasculating, whorish, child-beating harpies (and I'm being generous).

I don't know what was more troubling: men's low opinions of women or the women justifying the men's opinions. Like most endemic, unsolvable dilemmas, it's probably a chicken-or-egg question, anyway.

NOTE: These generalizations are not universal. I met several beautiful, witty, wise women when I lived in Paris. One girl (she was about 23), aroused such feelings in me that, if my life were different, we'd have had as passionate a relationship as any I've ever had with a man. She's one of the reasons why I truly believe I'm a repressed bisexual.
 
Either way, let's hope that Landon has a fun time in Paris. I do really believe he's there and it's something every young man should experience once he's of age. It's part of the Grande Tour after all.
 
Have fun in France Landon! I've been wanting to go to France since I first took French in high school, but never got around to it. Some day!
 
Ayez un jour splendide à Versailles. Ayez l'amusement à Paris avec votre cousin.
J'espère que vous devenez ivre et oublie ce qui s'est produit.
:)smile:sourire)
invisibleman
 
Derrida is the paragon of postmodern philosophy,

I don't like him nearly as much as I did some years ago, too much involved with death, but good in 'A Taste for the Secret'. His thing on Heidegger, 'Of Spirit', is pretty good, and has most of the Marxists screaming from time to time at Jewish admirers of Heidegger. Much prefer Lyotard and Deleuze for more vital philosophies, esp. the former's 'Libidinal Economy', hiw 'evil book', and the latters 'Mille Plateaux.'

I'm quite a francophile, though, but also an anglophile (it's been done.) I couldn't even begin to list the great things of French culture, and agree with E.M. Cioran that they have 'shone' for 1000 years in all domains. There is not one of the Arts in which they do not excel, even though other countries may be superior in quantity--as Germany in classical music, Germany and Italy in opera, and Russian ballet definitely is the gold standard, however marvelous POB. French literature, painting, the sensual arts of living are all highly developed.

There is Parisian rudeness, although I don't think there's a general 'French rudeness.' I know, I learned rudeness from the Parisians more than I did from New Yorkers, who can be beastly too. There's English rudeness, but it doesn't appear obviously nearly as often, but Parisian rudeness is very good training when you're 20 like I was the year I lived there: They respect you if you're just rude right back to them.

But I can't write a long post about this, Frenchness speaks for itself and has done without much help. They're full of shit just like everybody else, but have done a nice job in producing refinements in the Arts of Living as well as the Fine Arts themselves. I would not say they are literally greater than other Western cultures (except in having developed all the categories pretty thoroughly), but I don't think there is a more artistic country.