So... God

Northland

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Why is delusional made-up stuff "best"?

Your version may seem relatively benign, but other no less defensible versions are horrific.

We somehow ended up with a capacity for empathy and love. I wish that more people could set aside childish ways and accept the human condition of transience and intrinsic meaninglessness and build lives of beauty on that capacity.

All I said was that there is a reason. This is my belief, and I do not find it to be delusional. Delusional is thinking that all of what we have and are on is just somehow here and there's no reason for it, no reason at all, why, it just is! Yippity dippity Weeeeeee!

I indicated it is best to have faith that a reason exists for everything rather than to try to disect and comprehend all of how everything came to be, if to you that reads as delusional, then that is YOUR view.

In any event, you somewhat contradict yourself. After chopping down the idea that the idea of faith is good, you give your statement that we somehow ended up with a capacity for empathy and love. Well, where did that come from if not from something, somewhere? I truly and firmly believe that something had to bestow that upon us in some way. I don't have all the answers, none of does. After death there may be nothing or there may be everything, I don't know, hence my belief, my faith, that there is reason. You want to deem that delusional then go for it.

I am not saying that my belief and faith in my God is that God is perfect, or that God is just one. There are many things which make no sense. For all your talk of empathy and love, there needs to be the counterweight which shows indifference, hatred which also exist. And where did these qualities come from? There is doubtless a reason for everything, I am neither able nor obliged to know what all the reasons are, and because of this, I choose faith. I choose trust. I choose belief. Delusional or not, this is my choice and an allowance from God, my God, my comforting hand.

You have your choices, your beliefs and are free to follow them as you see fit, gaining comfort and happiness from them, I have mine. Maybe in some bizarre way, we both are right.
 

B_bi_mmf

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Delusional is thinking that all of what we have and are on is just somehow here and there's no reason for it, no reason at all, why, it just is!

Delusion is taking prescientific outlandish myths and believing them to be literally true.

Arrogance is believing that we are part of some divine plan -- that there just has to be some sort of cosmic purpose to our existence.
 

Northland

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Delusion is taking prescientific outlandish myths and believing them to be literally true.

Arrogance is believing that we are part of some divine plan -- that there just has to be some sort of cosmic purpose to our existence.

As I already have indicated; but, will do so again, you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe.

Additionally, an equal level of arrogance is deciding that others are delusional simply because they have a belief which you do not share. Whereas I have no real understanding of the various sects of Buddhism, or of Islam or Paganism or of many cultural practices of the world, I truly do not see them as delusional, whereas others do.

You have decreed that it is a display of arrogance to believe that there is a divine plan and that we are part of it. That, can be seen as arrogant assumption on your part. You are in no way obligated to share my belief system, I am not looking to recruit. I explain my beliefs and if people connect with them, then fine, if not, that is fine too. We all have our own system of beliefs, I won't diminish yours, kindly do me the same decency by not diminishing mine.
 

B_bi_mmf

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As I already have indicated; but, will do so again, you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe.

Additionally, an equal level of arrogance is deciding that others are delusional simply because they have a belief which you do not share. Whereas I have no real understanding of the various sects of Buddhism, or of Islam or Paganism or of many cultural practices of the world, I truly do not see them as delusional, whereas others do.

You have decreed that it is a display of arrogance to believe that there is a divine plan and that we are part of it. That, can be seen as arrogant assumption on your part. You are in no way obligated to share my belief system, I am not looking to recruit. I explain my beliefs and if people connect with them, then fine, if not, that is fine too. We all have our own system of beliefs, I won't diminish yours, kindly do me the same decency by not diminishing mine.

My opinion is that childish beliefs based on zero verifiable evidence do not deserve my respect or that of any rational person.

It would be hypocritical of me to treat all world views as being deserving of respect.

At a more mundane level, I do enjoy the back-and-forth with you on the Famous Name Game.
 
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Northland

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My opinion is that childish beliefs based on zero verifiable evidence do not deserve my respect or that of any rational person.

It would be hypocritical of me to treat all world views as being deserving of respect.

Every view deserves respect. Some of the most scoffed upon ideas have proven over time to be true and to be real, I find no reason or sense to close and seal up the door, or my mind to possibility.
 

AquaEyes11010

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If your reasoning for there being a god is that something as significant as matter colliding, emotional capacity, the first cell, etc. must have come from or been planned by "something else", then that "something else" (which you call god") must be even more significant than that which it created. Something even more significant could not have come out of nowhere, thus an even greater god must have existed which put your god into creation...

Can you see that your rationale will lead to an infinite spiral? Or do you say that your god is so great that it has always existed and did not need a creator. Well, if that's the case, then you negate the first part of the argument, saying that something significant requires a creator.

How about this idea...god was created out of a need by humans. Some things are too big or outside the realm of an upright hunting primate brain to comprehend, so to put closure to otherwise unknown questions, we make up god. In this model, god has existed only within the minds of humans who needed to find a value for X. As such, there was no god before humans, since there was nothing on our planet intelligent enough to even realize there was a need for one. Or if you claim there always was a god, then god must have been very lonely, since for the first 4 billion years or so of this planet's life, there was nothing on it intelligent enough to even comprehend its existence.

While having god conceptually may satisfy the human need for and desire to seek out answers, that alone does not cause god to exist. Saying that there must be a god to have started or created everything causes a conceptual problem, because then something must have started or created god.

And why are you certain that there is "one" god? There are many more religions which claim multiple gods. Even judeo-christian-islam leaves a "multi-god" remnant in the form of angels and other "heavenly characters." Yet there seems to be a common belief that "multiple" gods in a religion is more primitive, like paganism. Well, if this is the consensus, then clearly atheism, with the god-reduction at maximum to 0, is the most advanced concept.

Some could say that we can't be sure if there is or isn't a god, and within the parameters set forth by the various religions about the reasons a god does or doesn't act, why things are, etc. then there will always be a religious explanation for the result of any test which would continue to argue for there being a god. Well, say some, if we're not sure, then we should assume there is so and worship accordingly, since if we're wrong, it won't matter, but if we're right, we'll be rewarded. Well.....If I don't believe in a god, yet lead an otherwise good life, and at death find that there is a god who punishes me for not believing in it, then that god is not just, and why would I worship an unjust god?

There are plenty of arguments on either side that have persisted through the ages of human reason, and will continue, because of two basic ideas. One, we can't test the existence of god, so we can't say definitively that there isn't one. However, with an ever increasing amount of evidence suggesting at the very least the lack of "the hand of god" acting in science, the "no god" camp is, from my perspective, correct. Two, the debate will continue because both sides so strongly are confident in their "truths" that they believe they can convince the other side to switch, yet are steadfastly digging in their heels from being switched themselves.

Me, I don't believe there is a god. Yes, I do believe my opinion is correct (if I didn't, why would I believe an opinion I didn't believe to be correct?), however I very much respect the rights of everyone else to have their own opinions and hold them as being equally correct. What I don't appreciate is the notion that because my opinion is different from yours (not pointing to anyone in particular), somehow that gives you the permission to change mine.

I've written on here before how I've come into contact with those who feel its their duty to "save" me by convincing me their religion (typically some form of christianity) is the path to follow. For some reason, it's not considered offensive to "spread the word of Jesus" despite other people being content in their current beliefs. However, if I was to walk door to door and denounce christianity as being a collection of myths with a sprinkling of true events that has been at the root of an ever continuing list of historical calamities, and even today is cited as justification for hate, censorship, discrimination, war, murder, etc., then I'd be branded as being offensive (even if every spoken and printed word was absolutely true and based on documented and traceable facts). Hmmmmm.....

:)
 

B_bi_mmf

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I very much respect the rights of everyone else to have their own opinions and hold them as being equally correct.

Excellent piece, AquaEyes.

Regarding your quoted sentence above, I agree. People have the right to believe whatever ridiculous crap they want to. But none of us has an obligation to refrain from expressing our views about such crap and the horrible actions that people often take based on that crap.

In fact, we non-believers have what I regard as an obligation to speak out in support of reason over superstition. We have been far too deferential in the past.
 
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helgaleena

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There has to be a reason for my existence because every time I quit trying to exist I could not. The next breath keeps being taken, too. And what it may be is beyond my capacities to reason, that is for certain.

As for God, I only know what I have personally experienced. Which is personal and YMMV. But-- I am an ordained Druid, have been touched by the Noodly Appendage of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and goosed by Invisible Pink Unicorns on more than one occasion. Humans have as many gods as they require, afaik.
 

AquaEyes11010

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Excellent piece, AquaEyes.

Regarding your quoted sentence above, I agree. People have the right to believe whatever ridiculous crap they want to. But none of us has an obligation to refrain from expressing our views about such crap and the horrible actions that people often take based on that crap.

In fact, we non-believers have what I regard as an obligation to speak out in support of reason over superstition. We have been far too deferential in the past.

Thanks for the praise. I do believe that in the proper forum and context, yes, our views should be expressed. However, I don't take that to mean that when I see someone who is by some obvious characteristic (wearing a religious emblem, reading a religious text, etc), and minding his own business, that I should approach him and offer arguments against his beliefs. In reality, such has happened in reverse to me (I was reading "God Is Not Great..." by Christopher Hitchens on the train, and a stranger sitting next to me started asking me how I could live life not believing in a god...seriously, this happened), but as I consider that act an invasion, I wouldn't do the same to someone else.

So what are the proper forums and contexts? Well, if there is a pre-set debate, or to counter religious rhetoric arguments used to propose or justify laws or rules forcibly applied to me, then it's fair game. Basically, I think religion (or no religion) falls under "to each his own" and "live and let live." But if someone approaches me and challenges my non-belief in god with his belief in god, the gloves come off.

:)