voluntary extinction

[D_Amyntas Lillydong]

gee thanks for your above post phil. by using the word "you" i'm assuming you're directing the comments to me. it was a topic that was brought up at work that i was surprised by some coworkers' viewpoints. i have a child myself. i was wanting to get other peoples' viewpoints on here about the subject matter. so that is why i started this thread.

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

Well I suppose that raising a generation of kids who can help to solve the world's problems would be handy, but why the fuck should I wait? If people care, then be pro-active NOW!

You ain't going to fix the world if you can't even save your own soul.

 

[chicagosam]

I never met anyone who opted to not have kids who was doing it for any other than pure selfishness... Not wanting to share their lives, their incomes, their mates... not wanting to have to think about anyone else's needs, not wanting to have to do without, or pay for someone else's education, clothing, or toys...

Your generalization is interesting but misguided.

I will write in behalf of all the teachers here who do not have children and yet have spent their lives in the service of children.

From my own experience, I have, in many cases, been the sole parent figure in some of my students lives filling in for the lack of interest and failures of their real parents in raising them. I have always placed my students’ needs above my own, giving freely of my time and money. My school day may start at eight, but I am often with kids from 7 AM until 5 PM, and then stay at school late at night and on the weekends working in their behalf. Yes, I probably could have had kids, but thousands of kids as opposed to the 2.5 kids I would have had to meet your criteria for not being selfish, have benefited from what I have freely offered. I think that is the greater good.

Teachers, whether they are parents or non-parents and above and beyond educating children, are constantly providing emotional amd financial security to children who are the products of (by your concept) “unselfish” yet (my thinking) incompetent parents of whom they are the progeny. There isn’t a week that goes by where there is not a child in need, or their family, and teachers are digging into their pockets to help out. Hillary Clinton’s comment “it takes a whole village to raise a child” is true, and allows for those of us who have chosen not to have childen to take care of those children that could benefit solely from our time and money and not by our reproducing. Sharing a sperm and an egg does not make you a parent nor does it make you not selfish.

And I am fine with that... if you're that selfish please DON'T have kids, you would be a shitty parent.

Thank you for that absolution, Phil. Perhaps this thread should be directed at the selfishness of those who have children and can’t raise them as opposed to those that don’t. That is the bigger crime. I, and others like me who have chosen not to have children, have more than done our fair share in behalf of children. Our generosity in what we have provided for those who are not ours would make us extremely “unselfish,” and all those kids who become our kids simply by what we do for them would tell you the same.

 

[nudeyorker]

While I agree with Phil to a point because I expressed similar sentiments earlier in this thread. I strongly disagree with the statement that anyone who chooses not to have children are selfish. Some people simply choose not to have children for very personal reasons. Two adults who make the decision that they would be inadequate parents have my full support over someone who gave the decision little or no thought until they were parents and can not handle the responsibility and subsequently make misguided decisions.
From my own decision to have or not have children has been very difficult. With my first partner (25 years ago) we discussed this and had to make a painful decision that a child with two gay fathers in Greenwich Connecticut was going to have to deal with issues that we were not certain we could compensate. We agreed to readdress the issue if we moved back to NYC where it would likely be more accepted. We never were able to have that conversation again because after we moved back to the city he died of a heart attack. I have to admit that I would have been ill equipped to be a single parent. (Could I have done it?... I would like to think I would have been able to but I really don't like to waste time with the "What If?") Because what is... is.

Fast forward in my current relationship we discussed this again and some of the same fears came back, but most importantly I feel like I am too old now. So you see in my case and I'm sure in the case of many; serious thought, consideration and sleepless nights went into this decision. While I think I would have been a great father it simply did not work out. But serious consideration went into the decision.
Do I have regrets about it? Yes I do; but can I change it? No. If this decision is selfish than I stand corrected.

 

[Mr Ed in Mass]

Some people should use voluntary extinction on themselves.

 

[whatireallywant]

This is the case with my wife. She has a terrible family history of diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc. She is diabetic herself, which complicates pregnancy a great deal. If we ever have kids it will almost certainly be through a surrogate mother or adoption.

I'm not sure anyone but the fringiest people choose not to have kids due to a belief in "voluntary extinction." For most it is either that they don't like kids, don't think they'd be good parents, or are unwilling to accept the lifestyle changes associated with having children.

Steve

Yes.... I'm not one of the "fringiest" people, even though some may accuse me of being. :biggrin1: I chose not to have kids because of all of these other reasons stated! I don't like kids, and obviously don't think I'd be a good parent since I don't like kids! Plus I have no maternal instinct at all. And I'm unwilling to accept the lifestyle changes. I want to just go to my job and when I come home I'm OFF WORK! With kids you are working 24/7/365. Not for me. Plus I like being able to come and go as I please and do my own thing (and yes, I've been called selfish for this.) AND... I didn't really get to enjoy my youth, due to being stuck in rural Indiana around a bunch of people who HATED me. Or even worse, those who would pretend to be my friend for a while then stab me in the back when I didn't expect it. When I moved to the city, things got better but I still didn't have that much of a life. I have a bit more of a life now but I have financial problems (and that would interfere with my ability to adequately raise a child, too!)

I actually don't think the world is getting worse. It is in some ways (global warming, etc.) but in many ways it is also getting better (less discrimination, although we still have a way to go to completely eliminate that!) So I think it pretty much evens out. That said though, I am definitely glad I'm living now and not in the 1950s or earlier!

 

[Phil Ayesho]

gee thanks for your above post phil. by using the word "you" i'm assuming you're directing the comments to me. it was a topic that was brought up at work that i was surprised by some coworkers' viewpoints. i have a child myself. i was wanting to get other peoples' viewpoints on here about the subject matter. so that is why i started this thread.

I responded to the YOU that you, yourself invoked.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

I will write in behalf of all the teachers here who do not have children and yet have spent their lives in the service of children.

Thank you for that absolution, Phil. Perhaps this thread should be directed at the selfishness of those who have children and can’t raise them as opposed to those that don’t. That is the bigger crime. I, and others like me who have chosen not to have children, have more than done our fair share in behalf of children. Our generosity in what we have provided for those who are not ours would make us extremely “unselfish,” and all those kids who become our kids simply by what we do for them would tell you the same.

Gee, thanks a whole lot for that "selflessness" for which you get both paid and a pension.

You fail to address the point because you fail to offer a valid NON-selfish rationale for your own choice not to reproduce.

I have exposed the " i'm not having kids to benefit the Earth" as a bullshit lie, and I have exposed the "i'm not having kids because I am doing them a favor by not having them," as a bullshit lie.

Understand that I think it is perfectly valid and reasonable to not have kids because you don't want them, perfectly reasonable to not want kids because you don't want to pay for them... perfectly reasonable to not have them because you honestly think you would be a bad parent... or because you don't want them to cramp your lifestyle...

Those are all self centered reasons... but I don't think they are 'bad' reasons to not have children.

They possess the virtue of being honest, and I respect any reason for not having children that is not a self aggrandizing lie.


What I am objecting to is the mythology of the "selfless" reason to not have children.


Oh- and don't think I imagine that all the people who have children have them for selfless reasons.... most of them are having kids for the wrong reasons...

What I find criminal is when folks have the means, and the education, and the awareness to understand the world, to make a positive contribution to that world... and THEY choose not to produce a similarly aware and educated citizen to replace themselves.

You are fine with reaping all the benefits of a society for yourself.. but refuse to do your part to ensure or better that society in the future?


And, again, don't pull out the schoolchildren as your get out of selfishness free card...

I am not saying having a selfish motive for not bearing children makes you a worthless human being.
I am not saying it wipes out any other good you may do in life.

You can be a very productive contributing member of society in every other regard...

And still make a selfish choice regarding parenting.

I am just saying I got no respect nor tolerance of folks LYING about that choice.

 

[D_Amyntas Lillydong]

a very good clarification and viewpoint phil.

 

[chicagosam]

Some people should use voluntary extinction on themselves.

Agreed.