Bad news yall, Sean Bell's killers are going scott-free

[Phil Ayesho]

No, they didn't go in to RAID the place...

They "heard" someone talk about going to get a gun, so they ran surveillance on the guys coming out. Then, as undercover agents, they moved against them without identifying themselves.

Not my understanding... There were there, in place, BEFORE they heard about a gun... why? As I understood it the police department suspected illegal activity at the club and actively posted officers there looking to find it.

I dunno about you, but if I was leaving a strip club in Queens at 4am, I damn sure wouldn't be stopping for any asshole screaming at me from outside my car who wasn't wearing a uniform.

I actually agree... this is the tragedy... I don't think the officers considered how THEY would appear to inebriated patrons stumbling into the parking lot.

Just the same... if someone pointed a gun at me and claimed to be a cop... I would hold perfectly still.

This seems to be the crux of the case: did the pigs have reasonable cause to suspect criminal activity was taking place?

Personally, I find it difficult to imagine they did. All told, this situation appears to have been entirely of their creation.

I donlt honestly know if they did or not.
If you were a cop and your watch commander told you that illegal activity at the club was suspected... Is that probable cause or not?

If you showed up at the club, imagining that illegal activity was imminent... and THOUGHT you heard someone say they were getting a gun....
Is that probable cause? Or simply the fact that your expectation of trouble made you more likely to imagine you heard the word gun?


Again... no doubt about the fact that the officers fucked up.

No Doubt about the fact that the victims did something stupid in the situation.

The victims have the excuse of being hammered for not understanding the seriousness of the situation.

The Cops have the excuse of expecting trouble and the victims doing something stupid that scared them.


Of the two... I think the Cops bear much greater responsibility for the tragic outcome.


But I don't think their actions were CRIMINAL.

Again... Fire them... file a wrongful death claim... It should be made clear to all remaining officers that making such dreadful errors has ramifications that could ruin their lives.


But I don't think you can reasonably claim that it was anything more than really poor judgment.

Given the task that police officers are asked to shoulder... these officers... in this case... do not belong in prison.

 

[unabear09]

the fact of the matter is.....if he was such a threat, why didn't they shoot him one time, like in the leg or something like that to take him down? they used more that excessive force by firing 50 times. this case has made me sick, and only makes me distrust police officers even more

 

[HazelGod]

But I don't think you can reasonably claim that it was anything more than really poor judgment.

Given the task that police officers are asked to shoulder... these officers... in this case... do not belong in prison.

This is where we will just have to agree to disagree, as my opinion is that their lack of judgment precipitated the situation and was, in fact, criminal...and they do belong in prison.

I also don't agree with your implication that the general dangers of police work in some way mitigates their culpability in this specific case.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Try being a cop.

Or talking with one...



And I am not saying it mitigates their culpability... I am saying that it is unreasonable to expect a standard of conduct from cops that no other human being could exhibit.

Cops are no different than you or I.
They get scared, they get angry, they get confused, they make mistakes. Their blood gets up.. adrenaline flows...

Their perceptions are largely dictated by their preconceptions.
Just like you and I.


When you show me a group of people who DON'T have those traits, then I will accept the standard of conduct you want to hold cops to.


Again... If YOU did the exact same thing... as a civilian... and could prove to the satisfaction of a judge that you felt threatened... you could not be criminally convicted.

You want a different yardstick for the people you rather denigratingly refer to as "pigs".

I think that is unreasonable.

As to the number of shots fired...
its their training.... when they feel threatened by someone they pretty much shoot until the person drops.
When the person is sitting in a car they can't tell what the person is doing...

The number of shots is a pretty good indication of the level of THREAT they felt.

I agree the threat was illusory...
but, y'know people who see ghosts or UFOs REALLY DO think they are seeing them.


I suppose its a fine distinction... but when I see folks demanding perfection from their police officers... it makes me shake my head...

I have not met a perfect person yet... not even heard tell of one.

Even Jesus yelled at his mother.

 

[Northland]

the fact of the matter is.....if he was such a threat, why didn't they shoot him one time, like in the leg or something like that to take him down? they used more that excessive force by firing 50 times. this case has made me sick, and only makes me distrust police officers even more

It was rather hard to shoot Bell in the leg since he was inside the car.

As to the 50 shots, let's once more remember there was more than one officer firing-the way it's bandied about, one would think all 50 shots came from one gun. Several shots hit nobody, 16 hit Joseph "change the story all the time" Guzman. It has been played to read as if all 50 hit Bell.


Was it unfortunate? Yes. Sad? Undoubtedly. Could it have been avoided? Perhaps. Perhaps if Bell hadn't hit the fucking gas pedal the first bullet wouldn't have been let out because there would have been no inherent belief that a life was in danger. All the men in the car spoke English and understood what was being said to them they chose to ignore it (at least the driver did). Here's how it goes-when asked to stop, you stop. I've been stopped by the police and by undercovers as well. They flashed a badge and I did as requested-did I like it? No. However, I understand that they are doing a job and that in the larger picture, they truly are there to protect and serve me. Have I ever had a gun pointed at me? Of course not; because, I used common sense and froze in that spot. Was it terrifying? You bet. Do I trust the police any less? No. I know there are bad apples in every group, and I have to place my trust not only in them but in God above who will call me in when the time is right. There are transit operators who are drunk /and/or using mind altering drugs-should I stop trusting them as well? How about doctors? They make mistakes and people die-should I cease going to doctors?

Club Kalua has been under scrutiny by the NYPD for some time, this is not some sudden overnight thing and from what most have said, people who frequent Club Kalua know full well what it is and about the illegal activities which take place there. It was an unfortunate night and one which has severely altered the lives of many people, not just the direct victims; but the indirect victims as well. Sean Bell, his pre-wedding widow, his 2 daughters, his parents, the Guzman family and the Benefield family. But let's not forget the officers either and their families-more families which have been thrown into a chaotic turmoil.

 

[HazelGod]

Oink oink oink oink oink oink...

:tongue:

 

[Northland]

:tongue:

Well aren't you the un-clever and incredibly insipid one.
Your doing this:
LPSG.ORG - View Single HG2 where you have altered my post (essentially removing all my words and inserting your own) shows stupidity. You and your cronies may find it amusing, rest assured, it is not.


Read my post, stop altering what I have written and respond as an adult-I indicated that it was an unfortunate night and that many lives were changed-including those of the shooting victims. Your earlier aspersion (a few pages back) of 'I smell swine in our midst' found here:HuglyGoo and now this, show a level of immaturity which I am sure must be tickling your inbred family no end. Now, run back to your cronies around here who will stroke your fragile ego and pretend that you have a brain or anything else worth living for.

 

[jumbo747jet]

Come on, people.

Act as the adults you are, and simply accept that you have different opinions.

If you want to try and convince somebody else that you are right, the worst thing you can do is to make fun of his or her opinion. That is very disrespectful and immature.

Shape up

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Nothing justifies cops to fire 50 shots at one person unless the person is shooting back at them. And even then, the fact that they used 50 clearly shows that they were not properly trained to handle such a high stress situation, or they're just lousy shots and can't aim which is also worrysome. Either way you look at it, the cops fucked up royally. We can make excuses or try to feel a inch of remorse for the policemen, but they are the ones that decided to take it upon themselves to become cops to begin with. I feel no sympathy for anyone who wants to take on any role of power and refuses to take on all the responsibilities that come with it.

Either they or the NY Police Department must be held accountable. Either the cops made bad judgement, or the Police Department is not doing their job by properly screening and hiring the right people for the job. No excuses.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Nothing justifies cops to fire 50 shots at one person unless the person is shooting back at them. And even then, the fact that they used 50 clearly shows that they were not properly trained to handle such a high stress situation, or they're just lousy shots and can't aim which is also worrysome. Either way you look at it, the cops fucked up royally. We can make excuses or try to feel a inch of remorse for the policemen, but they are the ones that decided to take it upon themselves to become cops to begin with. I feel no sympathy for anyone who wants to take on any role of power and refuses to take on all the responsibilities that come with it.

Either they or the NY Police Department must be held accountable. Either the cops made bad judgement, or the Police Department is not doing their job by properly screening and hiring the right people for the job. No excuses.

great point. what's slightly upsetting about this thread is how some people are treating detectives wrongfully killing someone like it's just mcdonald's giving you the wrong sandwich, oops sorry it happens. something is definitely wrong when one person 'mistakingly' kills someone then gets away with it since it was a mistake. is responsibility too much to ask for from our detectives??

 

[Qua]

PS all sharpton is NOT black, doesn't represent black, he's his own race of perm-having, speech-giving, hypocritical ding-bats who is, by some weird mistake of the universe, put in a position for many people to hear his uneducated and biased rantings that are ultimately self-serving

THANK YOU! I agree 100%. My personal view of Sharpton is that in a way he is perversely opposed to any real effort to improve race relations, because without opportunities to racistly yell about racism and victimization the man would lose what thin celebrity he has. He'd be a hack left behind screaming with no one sticking around to listen. Thus I find his entire persona absolutely disgusting. Not only is it terribly biased and racist, but seeks to benefit and increase his fame under the guise of racial awareness when his self-serving actions really do more harm than good to race relations in the country. Fucking hypocrite.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

the fact of the matter is.....if he was such a threat, why didn't they shoot him one time, like in the leg or something like that to take him down? they used more that excessive force by firing 50 times. this case has made me sick, and only makes me distrust police officers even more

Several officers who fired , fired because they HEARD gunfire.
They did not know it was only the other officers shooting.

If you gave it some thought, it might occur to you that when guns start going off... things get tense.... and the situational awareness gets murky.

At least 4 officers were firing that I read of... 4 glocks can throw out 50 rounds in about 4 seconds...

When someone is coming at you in a car.... you do not shoot one time. You shoot till the car stops coming at you.



Again... its kind of a toilet seat issue... some folks saying every cop should be perfectly cool and perfectly collected in every situation without fail.

And others saying, well, yeah, that would be nice... but don't bet your LIFE on it...
When the man with the gun says freeze... you fucking freeze.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Several officers who fired , fired because they HEARD gunfire.
They did not know it was only the other officers shooting.

I still think it's an excuse, though. I've heard gunshots several times when I was growing up in the hood, and never thought about pulling out a gun and shooting it. Most people would try to move to a safer area, or at least indoors.

If you gave it some thought, it might occur to you that when guns start going off... things get tense.... and the situational awareness gets murky.

And cops/detectives are supposed to be trained to deal with these kinds of situations. We're not suggesting what they do is not hard work, but they should have known this before they decided to become authority figures. They handled this particular job horribly IMO.

At least 4 officers were firing that I read of... 4 glocks can throw out 50 rounds in about 4 seconds...

Interesting statistic.

When someone is coming at you in a car.... you do not shoot one time. You shoot till the car stops coming at you.

Or you could not shoot, move out of the way, take down a license plate number and call for backup that could set up a barricade somewhere down the road. It's not as if the cops were facing a car coming at them down an alleyway and they didn't have anyplace left to go. If Sean Bell was really guilty of doing something and they couldn't handle the situation, then why didn't they just do this instead of opening 50 shots on an unarmed man?

Again... its kind of a toilet seat issue... some folks saying every cop should be perfectly cool and perfectly collected in every situation without fail.

Not perfectly cool, but better prepared. The gun should be used as a very last resort.

When the man with the gun says freeze... you fucking freeze.

And if he doesn't, then you approach him and try to aprehend the subject without shooting. They're supposed to have on bullet proof vests and things when approaching people who may be armed. Either way you look at it, things look bad for the cops/detectives and the Police Department as a whole. And the fact that they were aquitted on all charges shows just how corrupt the system is.

No justice for lower class & poor people. That's the problem.

 

[HazelGod]

At least 4 officers were firing that I read of... 4 glocks can throw out 50 rounds in about 4 seconds...

Actually, 32 of the 50+ rounds fired came from ONE of the cops. He fired his 16-round magazine empty...stopped, released the magazine, replaced it with a full one, cycled the action, and fired it empty AGAIN.

Even at the Olympic rate of 3 rounds per second, that would take 11 seconds...plus the time to reload between magazines.

This incident was nothing short of criminal.

 

[marleyisalegend]

i'm not arguing this point or even returning to this post anymore because i've realized how little value a black man's life really has in this country. instead of well-wishes for his family people are painting him as a savage drunked criminal who shouldn't have been drinking and driving. should he have?? no way in hell. this is the last time i'm going to make this statement but this nation would be up in arms if these officers had gunned down a young white woman drunk leaving a club. the argument would be "so what she was drunk, handcuff her and take her to jail, are any of us safe?" as opposed to "oh well he was drinking and driving and the cops may have overreacted but hey, their job is stressful, people make mistakes".