Brokeback Mountain

Lex

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SurferGirlCA said:
I didn't think that when I saw it, actually. I assumed the scene in Ennis's head was just a reflection of his own experience that being "queer" = violent death. Maybe someone who has read the story can tell us if Annie Proulx makes it clear there. I kinda like that Ang Lee left it open to interpretation.

I read the story and saw the movie. I felt that is was clear from reading the story that what Ennis "sees" is what really happened. The actress' delivery in the movie makes it clear as well. She is lying (coldly) [the author notes this in the sotry] and Ennis knows this. He sees Jack's death as it really happened--a reenactment of what happened to the two men that got killed--not as it is told. His dad took him to see the corpse, remember?

The scene is a validation of Ennis's beliefs that being queer = a violent death. This is also why he is so upset when Alma confronts him. He does not know that she ever saw he and Jack kiss on the stairs that day. So, to him (and his deep-rooted, homophobic self-hatred), it caused him to believe (incorrectly in his case) that people can "See" that he is gay.

There is really no other end for Jack. he was more openly queer and took more risks to explore and meet his own needs. I need to see this again.
 

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It is my understanding that the author left the real cause of Jack's death open on purpose. Given where I grew up, I personally believe he was beaten to death - but allow that he might have died as his wife said he did. Either way, the tragedy is that all four of these people so desparately wanted love and none of them was able to give it or receive it. At least not consistently. The only thing Ennis seems to have really managed was to care of his children.
I have met a lot of Turks who left Turkey for Western Europe because they wanted to live their lives as gay men or lesbian women in peace. It is not a universal problem in the culture - but it is a big big problem for a large number of young 3rd generation immigrant men here in Europe.
In Colorado and Wyoming - at least during my youth - the only way to be openly gay was to never be alone and to be big enough and nasty enough that the shit kickers would leave you alone. I was lucky to be built like I was. In retrospect, my dad knew what he was doing when he trained me as an expert marksman, martial arts, etc.
We are making progress - but when I read the hatred so many christians advance in their comments on this film, I fear it is very slow.
The film opens in Germany in a few weeks. The media here are having a hard time with it. On the one hand, the film doesn't have a happy ending - important for "artsy-fartsy" German films. On the other hand, it is so well made that it can't really qualify as "art".
Some talk of Ang putting a few more love scenes into the European distribution - that would be quite something. Never thought I'd actually see a man being sodomized by his lover on screen as a positive expression of affection - and that first kiss after four years apart. Wow!
 

Lex

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If you read the story, it is clear that Jack was murdered. What is open to interpretation, is if Jack's wife had any involvement.

And Again--Ennis is not straight. He is homophobic and hates himself. Ennis, if anything is bi-sexual. Jack prefers men, Ennis prefers Jack.
 

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Lex said:
If you read the story, it is clear that Jack was murdered. What is open to interpretation, is if Jack's wife had any involvement.

humm, that's interesting. i really must read the book, now.

although it crossed my mind given the look on her face in the movie...
 

SurferGirlCA

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headbang8 said:
Flash forward to the scene where Alma glimpses Jack and Ennis kissing. Was she threatened by the fact that her hussband was kissing another man, or by the self-evident passion that contrasted with the dreary domestic pact that passed for her own love? Hmmm...

I think Alma genuinely loved Ennis, so I am sure both of the things you mentioned would be reason enough for her to feel shock and betrayed. I also doubt she thought of her relationship with her husband as "dreary domestic pact"; that's a bit harsh, I'd say. Part of the message of the story is that we all make choices in our lives, but we don't always understand how they will impact us (and others) for years to come - perhaps forever.
 

SurferGirlCA

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I found the Annie Proulx story online and here's the part where Ennis calls Texas to find out about Jack:

Ennis didn’t know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back stamped “deceased.” He called Jack’s number in Childress, something he had done only once before, when Alma divorced him, and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing. This would be all right; Jack would answer, had to answer. But he did not. It was Lureen and she said who? who is this? and when he told her again she said in a level voice yes, Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face, broke his nose and jaw and knocked him unconscious on his back. By the time someone came along he had drowned in his own blood.

No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron.

“Jack used to mention you,” she said. “You’re the fishing buddy or the hunting buddy, I know that. Would have let you know,” she said, “but I wasn’t sure about your name and address. Jack kept most a his friends’ addresses in his head. It was a terrible thing. He was only thirty-nine years old.”

The huge sadness of the Northern plains rolled down on him. He didn’t know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident, blood choking down Jack’s throat and nobody to turn him over. Under the wind drone he heard steel slamming off bone, the hollow chatter of a settling tire rim.

“He buried down there?” He wanted to curse her for letting Jack die on the dirt road.

The little Texas voice came slip-sliding down the wire, “We put a stone up. He use to say he wanted to be cremated, ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain. I didn’t know where that was. So he was cremated, like he wanted, and, like I say, half his ashes was interred here, and the rest I sent up to his folks. I thought Brokeback Mountain was around where he grew up. But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there’s a whiskey spring.”

“We herded sheep on Brokeback one summer,” said Ennis. He could hardly speak.

“Well, he said it was his place. I thought he meant to get drunk. Drink whiskey up there. He drank a lot.”

“His folks still up in Lightnin Flat?”

“Oh yeah. They’ll be there until they die. I never met them. They didn’t come down for the funeral. You get in touch with them. I suppose they’d appreciate it if his wishes was carried out.”
 

Lex

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SurferGirlCA--can you provide a link to the story?

Also--the matter of factness--her LEVEL voice. The way she says--you're the fishing or hunting buddy or something. The way her delivery changfes when Ennis mentions Brokeback Mountain. The, there is alos the fact that Jack was not known to fix or operate machinery very well at all. The story has lie written all over it.
 

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tightfit said:
...a man being sodomized...[/quite]
Crikey - I didn't realise that people still used that word. Yuck!
:eek:
Sorry, tightfit - probably a difference in our upbringings. Sodomy, fellatio, cunnilinguous (spelling?) - father, why do these words sound so nasty...
I found the scene sexually stimulating and very romantic. Would you prefer I say, my gun was pert near goin' off when Heath plowed Jake?
My paws and whiskers, when did we become so PC???
 

Matthew

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panthera said:
Sodomy, fellatio, cunnilinguous (spelling?) - father, why do these words sound so nasty...
25 points extra for the Hair reference.
 

panthera

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Matthew said:
25 points extra for the Hair reference.
Thanks, and 45 points off for being old enough that I was not refering to the film...:)))
Lex, the list of folks who might have killed him is long enough. His father-in-law, the husband of the woman he was seeing, a man he had seduced...gay-bashers...hate filled 'christians'...it just is not made clear. Or maybe that tire did explode...
Anyway you read it, he suffered for his love.
Two more words to upset folks: Monogamy and being true. I would argue that both men were true to each other, though not monogamous.
 

SurferGirlCA

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Lex said:
SurferGirlCA--can you provide a link to the story? Also--the matter of factness--her LEVEL voice. The way she says--you're the fishing or hunting buddy or something. The way her delivery changfes when Ennis mentions Brokeback Mountain. The, there is alos the fact that Jack was not known to fix or operate machinery very well at all. The story has lie written all over it.

Lex, I am at work now so I don't have the link to the full story.

I thought Lureen's voice changed at that moment because that's when she realized the connection between her husband and this guy on the phone and Brokeback Mountain. She knew Ennis was the friend he went hunting/fishing with, but she never understood the signifiance of Brokeback Mountain as a place he wanted his ashes scattered until Ennis says they herded sheep together there one summer. In terms of Jack's mechanical abilities, I don't remember any reference to that, but we're talking about changing a tire. Even I can do that. :wink:

My point was that it's open to interpretation. I just thought it was worth mentioning that someone might disagree with an "its clearly meant to show..."-type assessment. I think the story suggests that the "Jack was attacked" scenario is playing out in Ennis' head, based on what he witnessed as a boy and what he assumes happens to "queers", but that's just my perception. I'm just so grateful that the filmmakers let the audience bring their own understanding to the experience. :smile:
 

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I found this film to be extremely beautiful scenery-wise; honest, true to its audience, sad but realistic, leaving the message to the audience that a human being is a human being and has the right to love whomever he or she wants......
Homosexuality is equally normal as anything else.......we humans are so very ignorant.........:cool:
 

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Joh said:
...leaving the message to the audience that a human being is a human being and has the right to love whomever he or she wants......
Homosexuality is equally normal as anything else.......we humans are so very ignorant.........:cool:

well said.
 

Lex

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I recorded Oprah today. The actress that played Lureen said that she felt that it was "obvious" what she was playing and if Jack's wife knew but that she felt like it made the film more powerful for her to not disclose the details.

hmmmm.
 

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Lex said:
I recorded Oprah today. The actress that played Lureen said that she felt that it was "obvious" what she was playing and if Jack's wife knew but that she felt like it made the film more powerful for her to not disclose the details.

hmmmm.

how was that episode ... i did want to see it??
 

Lex

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It was a good one--she gave half of the time to Brokeback. She had the two couples on and Jake and Heath did not disappoint. They were very honest about their thoughts pre-, during and post- movie. Most touching was how alol the actors seemed to be floored by the impact the movie has had on people. Try to find it online via Bit Torrent, I say.
 

GoneA

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Lex said:
It was a good one--she gave half of the time to Brokeback. She had the two couples on and Jake and Heath did not disappoint. They were very honest about their thoughts pre-, during and post- movie. Most touching was how alol the actors seemed to be floored by the impact the movie has had on people. Try to find it online via Bit Torrent, I say.


okay thanx. will do.

*god, i hate i missed that episode, maybe they'll play it again*
 

GoneA

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it was pretty clear to me what he (ennis) said at the end. many people say they can't understand him. did anyone esle have this problem?
 

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Joh said:
I found this film to be extremely beautiful scenery-wise; honest, true to its audience, sad but realistic, leaving the message to the audience that a human being is a human being and has the right to love whomever he or she wants......
Homosexuality is equally normal as anything else.......we humans are so very ignorant.........:cool:
____________________________________
.......and cruel.



Lex, I agree with you.
One of my friends suggested several possible scenarios. It all seemed very plain to me.