Circumcision

JanumSaleem

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Originally posted by Pye@Oct 17 2005, 12:30 AM
...Organized religion causes nothing but hate and animosity.
[post=352427]Quoted post[/post]​

Actually, it's not organised religion that causes hate, it's crazy, hateful people who use organised religion as a shield who create it. I and many of my friends are very religious, and we seem to be abel to reconcile that with NOT being hateful. I don't know, maybe we're just an anomaly, but it seems as though just as many hateful people are Athesits as are Religious in some way. In fact, I have been harassed more personally for being a Christian by Athesits thatn I have ever seen Christians harrass Atheists for not believing in God. And with the level of religiousness among many of my peers, I hear a lot of negative talk about Atheists, but they never actually take it into their own hands to call someone out on it.

My two cents.
 

vega

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Ya an old quote I like is never let religion get in the way of your faith. religions are good concepts that help a lot of people with their lives but often people forget that religions was supposed to help pople and they end up hating and hurting others over it.

Pye, thank you. You summed it up ery very well. As with all thing I elieve it comes down to the choice of the individual and in a matter so grave and concerning a parent should nto make that decision based on their own beliefs and fears.
 

Pye

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Originally posted by vega@Oct 17 2005, 02:16 AM
Ya an old quote I like is never let religion get in the way of your faith. religions are good concepts that help a lot of people with their lives but often people forget that religions was supposed to help pople and they end up hating and hurting others over it.

Pye, thank you. You summed it up ery very well. As with all thing I elieve it comes down to the choice of the individual and in a matter so grave and concerning a parent should nto make that decision based on their own beliefs and fears.
[post=352497]Quoted post[/post]​


That's what I was trying to get at-- much as I hate those parents that believe in NOT giving medicine or surgery to their children because it is god's way. It's twisted!
 

hungbig1

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Originally posted by robertomuro+Oct 16 2005, 10:53 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(robertomuro &#064; Oct 16 2005, 10:53 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by nitsud@Oct 16 2005, 11:46 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-BlastOff123
@Oct 16 2005, 12:49 PM
Perhaps you should talk to Jewish and Muslim religious leaders about it: it&#39;s required in their faiths. Don&#39;t be so quick to judge others.
As far as white Christians: It&#39;s a US thing, basically. Not done so much in Europe these days. And, there is research that shows that circumcised men are less likely to contract AIDS.
Barbaric? Sure. But then in a culture that seems to love body piercings what&#39;s the difference?
[post=352320]Quoted post[/post]​



I do believe, that it is stated in the bible, in order to give yourself to God you must be circumciside
[post=352389]Quoted post[/post]​

I assume you are talking about the old testament because the new testament specifically states otherwise.

Note: The jewish circumcision practiced today is VASTLY different from the original circumcision as practiced in the old testament (as in FAR more severe).

But here are some sites on circumcision from Jews against circumcision: http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

and

http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/
[post=352401]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]


Who would want to give themselves to something that we have no proof exists?

why the hell should you have the end of your penis cut off for god?

god is mearly a creation of the human mind, and the need that there is some higher perpose to this life. what a waste of a life to spend praying and beliving in something that has caused pain suffering and death more than any other thing ever.

religion is a way of controlling the population, the church is a money grabbing joke that used treats of eternal dambnation as a way of getting people to cough up more money at suday collection. The war between nothern and southern ireland is between protestants and catholics,why do they fight? because of there differnt religions?&#33;&#33; so they fight because they both belive in some invisable higher power but each has different views about what the power represnts,so they`ve got to fight about it.

why do people do things for god,and have to be accepted buy god,surely it would make mor sense to be accepted buy what you can see,and what does matter, the people around u.
 

DC_DEEP

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Interesting that no one thought as much about any of the other excuses as the religion excuse.

Personally, I don&#39;t really get how people can be so fiercely loyal to the "entity" who:

Put the tempting tree, and the "serpent", in the garden, then punished his prized creations because he made them too weak to resist...

Praised one scarifice (animal), snubbed another sacrifice (grain), causing (and allowing) the snubbed sibling to murder his brother - then cast the murderer out of paradise and punished him and seven generations (&#33;) of his children for the sin he was tempted to commit... talk about holding a grudge... what is good and wise and just about holding a man accountable for a transgression committed by his great-great-great-great grandfather?

Required Abraham to put his son on the altar, slash his throat, and toast him; the one instance where god "changed his mind" (keeping in mind the all-knowing and unchangeable nature of god...)

Required all his devotees to chop off a part of every male&#39;s sex organ...

Beset one of his most devoted worshippers with plague after plague after plague, eventually killing off all his herds and crops, then all his beloved children, all to settle a silly bet with god&#39;s rival. (I guess the story has a good ending, god "replaced" Job&#39;s children; I&#39;m sure anyone reading this who has ever lost a child knows that they are easily replaced.)

Raped a poor virgin girl, with the sole intent of impregnating her, knowing full well that her (his) son would eventually be tortured and murdered...

I&#39;m sure that I have left out a few. Does anyone else see a pattern here? I just can&#39;t figure out why anyone would continue to call this a loving, giving, all-knowing, just, merciful god - and continue to mutilate children with the excuse that it is a covenant with god. Circumcision, for religious reasons, just does not make sense to me.

As for just simply automatically doing it at birth, I say if you want to slice off pieces of your baby, leave his cock alone and maybe cut off one of his ears, or a toe or something.
 

Onslow

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I just adore these "I hate circumcisions/being circumcised/seeing circumcised" penis threads. The stupidity interspersed throughout is nearly comical. Then of course the side of "I love circumcisions/being circumcised/seeing circumcised" penis viewpoint. As I have indicated in the past, it matters not to me whether the man is cut or not as long as it is clean. As to religious viewpoints, why the attacks of many on the person who has it done as part of their belief or faith? This entire subject has been done nearly to death and then of course I notice those who criticize circumcisions are usually those who are sad that they got one or gloating that they didn&#39;t. And how about those who need it done for medical reasons? I suppose they should be chopped up and spit out as losers as well. Christ you people are twisted.
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by Onslow@Oct 17 2005, 09:11 AM
I just adore these "I hate circumcisions/being circumcised/seeing circumcised" penis threads. The stupidity interspersed throughout is nearly comical. Then of course the side of "I love circumcisions/being circumcised/seeing circumcised" penis viewpoint. As I have indicated in the past, it matters not to me whether the man is cut or not as long as it is clean. As to religious viewpoints, why the attacks of many on the person who has it done as part of their belief or faith? This entire subject has been done nearly to death and then of course I notice those who criticize circumcisions are usually those who are sad that they got one or gloating that they didn&#39;t. And how about those who need it done for medical reasons? I suppose they should be chopped up and spit out as losers as well. Christ you people are twisted.
[post=352538]Quoted post[/post]​
Onslow, although I concede your right to determine what members may or may not post, let&#39;s humor some of the ones who want to express and read differing viewpoints. As for the stupidity interspersed, I&#39;m still wondering why if cut/uncut matters not to you, and if you think that the subject has been done beyond death, why you feel not just compelled to READ a thread you don&#39;t care about, but you also feel compelled to COMMENT.

Most of these discussions are cognizant of occasional rare medical conditions that require circumcision. The discussion is focused on why someone would cut off a part of the body for not-medically-necessary reasons.

Routine preventive surgeries were practiced for decades in this country. Tonsils, appendices, and womens&#39; entire reproductive system except the vagina, were often removed with no reason except "everyone does it." These practices have fallen out of favor, as well they should have.

Many of us are just trying to understand why some people are so cavalier about amputating a perfectly healthy body part of an infant. Would it make it ok if I claimed religious mandate and cut off any other body part of an infant? An ear or finger or toe? Or if I tattooed religious symbols on my 3-day-old baby&#39;s face? Is it right for a parent to make an irreversible body modification decision for the child? If it is a "religious covenant" between the parent and god, does the child at some point in his life have the right to decide if he embraces or rejects the parent&#39;s religion?

I am neither sad because I was mutilated, nor gloating because I was not. I am simply saying that there is not much difference between having sex with someone who does not give consent (rape) and cutting off a body part of someone who does not give consent (infant circumcision). Either way, it is something intimate and personal, without consent, and cannot be undone. For whatever reason, doing a non-medical amputation on an infant just does not seem right to me. When he reaches majority age, then he can decide for himself what body parts he wants removed, pierced, or inked.
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by DC_DEEP
I&#39;m sure that I have left out a few. Does anyone else see a pattern here? I just can&#39;t figure out why anyone would continue to call this a loving, giving, all-knowing, just, merciful god.
Religious speak is often coded because it&#39;s largely held that the true nature of things is beyond common man&#39;s comprehension. The Bible, especially the Old Testament (New Testament is a lot of letter writing and campaigning for J to the ease us), is all about symbolism, allegory and metaphor, as are most tribal documents.

The Old Testament God doesn&#39;t take much bullshit, though.
 

vega

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Thank you DC DEEP for getting this back on the track it needed to be on.

Look at the title this is about circumcision not anti religous ranting. Yes I could go of on many reason why people should rethink religion and consider a path similar to mine akin to neutral agnosticism or Buddhism but I think if a person wants to question religion they will seek the answers by asking questions. It&#39;s doesn&#39;t need to be thrown i their face and forced down their throat. Actions like that are what need to be aoided.

It is funy how people are so offended by pointing out that circumcision IS amputation and (in most cases) unnecessary. It&#39;s the truth. It&#39;s the definition.

In regards to those that need a circumcision because of a medical reason do we cut off a finger because it may become infected later or because some people eed it so everyone should have it?

Most issues that arise are related to tightness of the skin and can be solved with a small slit in the skin it&#39;s self and exercises rather than complete amputation.

It comes down to choice or necessity. The choice should be that of the individual.
 

robertomuro

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Ok, avoiding religion altogether it is very simple:

1) Not a single medical organisation in the WORLD recommends routine neonatal circumcision although a few recommend against it.

2) From a moral point of view it is infringing on the childs right to bodily integrity without giving him/her (yes, females get circumcised to) a choice in the matter. As well as the fact that it clearly violates numerous international agreements and statements on universal rights of both humans and children.

So, besides: It sounded like a good idea at the time or to look like daddy what reason (both of which are so stupid its scary) could you have to do this to a child?
 

jonb

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The &#39;look like daddy&#39; reason&#39;s the scariest of all. Yeah, we all have our penises out all the time.
 

KinkGuy

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For me, and this is just my personal opinion on this matter, which I am VERY VOCAL AND OPINIONATED about...are as follows:

88% of the men in the world are uncut.

There seems to be no medical basis for removal of foreskin for health or disease prevention.

The HIV rates in “undeveloped” nation’s argument do not hold water. It is a lack of education and refusal to provide safer alternatives that cause the alarming rates in countries such as Africa.

The U.S. has a higher HIV rate than the UK...where most men are left natural. But comprehensive sex education is still taught.

AND NO ONE FUCKING ASKED MY PERMISSION TO MUTILATE MY BODY BEFORE THEY PERMANENTLY ALTERED MY PHYSICAL BEING.

The puritanical repressive regressive direction of the U.S. will kill many thousands of people because of self righteous ignorance and oppression.

Oh, and as stated elsewhere and a position I have taken many times on this board, Doctors make a shit load of money mutilating babies. Nuff&#39; said for the puritan idealist demigods.
 

surferboy

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Vega, I love you and all, but like, seriously, this topic has been done to death. It&#39;s not yer decision what others have done to themselves, or a parent has done ot their child. Yes, it seems cruel. But it&#39;s not yer decisionto make for the other people. And yes, I do agree that it shoud not be done to infants, as they like, can&#39;t decide for themselves. Again though, this topic really has bee done to death.

Also, as I just said, I do love ya dude. And this isn&#39;t a personal attack. Stay stoked.
 

KinkGuy

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Honestly, this subject hasn&#39;t been nearly "done to death." Just a few mutilated male infants who were circumcised to death.

Because it bores some amongst us, doesn&#39;t mean others don&#39;t have serious feelings about the subject and wish to continue discussing the topic. And it is our decision to have opinions and emotions regarding circumcision.
 

rogue_mj

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Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Oct 16 2005, 05:59 AM
3: We want him to look like his daddy.

My responses:

3: Good thing daddy didn&#39;t have an arm or leg amputated, or serious scarring from an auto accident, or a burn victim. Would you cut the child up to look like daddy then? When the child gets old enough to ask, why not say "Honey, once people used to do horrible things to their children, because they thought it was the right thing to do. We decided we did not want to cut off part of your penis, like daddy&#39;s parents did to him."
[post=352276]Quoted post[/post]​


My response to parents is:
"He doesnt look like Daddy anyway... Daddy&#39;s is big and fat and hairy, and his is small and bald & dinky.... you don&#39;t explain the lack of hair to him do you.... its assumed its ok.. that response doesn&#39;t cut it really, as you never explain a difference in eye color do you?? "

that usually makes them think&#33;
 

surferboy

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Originally posted by KinkGuy@Oct 18 2005, 02:49 AM
Honestly, this subject hasn&#39;t been nearly "done to death." Just a few mutilated male infants who were circumcised to death.

Because it bores some amongst us, doesn&#39;t mean others don&#39;t have serious feelings about the subject and wish to continue discussing the topic. And it is our decision to have opinions and emotions regarding circumcision.
[post=352814]Quoted post[/post]​


I never said you couldn&#39;t have yer own opinion. And yes, sadly, these topics have been done to death.
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by jonb+Oct 17 2005, 10:17 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jonb &#064; Oct 17 2005, 10:17 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>The &#39;look like daddy&#39; reason&#39;s the scariest of all. Yeah, we all have our penises out all the time.
[post=352734]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b]

Sadly enough, I have actually heard this excuse many many times. I still go back to my amputation response... would you cut off his arm to make him look like daddy, the amputee?

<!--QuoteBegin-surferboy
@Oct 18 2005, 02:59 AM
I never said you couldn&#39;t have yer own opinion. And yes, sadly, these topics have been done to death.
[post=352816]Quoted post[/post]​
[/quote]
Are there actually any threads on this board that are not merely variations on any other theme that has already been done to death?
"My dick is so big it won&#39;t fit in my girlfriend&#39;s pussy."
"All my best friends are jealous of my size."
"How can I make my cock bigger?"
"Does jelquing really work?"
"Coworkers always comment on my gigantic bulge."

Is there anything like, new under the sun?
 

robertomuro

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Originally posted by DC_DEEP+Oct 18 2005, 04:47 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_DEEP &#064; Oct 18 2005, 04:47 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by jonb@Oct 17 2005, 10:17 PM
The &#39;look like daddy&#39; reason&#39;s the scariest of all. Yeah, we all have our penises out all the time.
[post=352734]Quoted post[/post]​
Sadly enough, I have actually heard this excuse many many times. I still go back to my amputation response... would you cut off his arm to make him look like daddy, the amputee?

<!--QuoteBegin-surferboy
@Oct 18 2005, 02:59 AM
I never said you couldn&#39;t have yer own opinion. And yes, sadly, these topics have been done to death.
[post=352816]Quoted post[/post]​
Are there actually any threads on this board that are not merely variations on any other theme that has already been done to death?
"My dick is so big it won&#39;t fit in my girlfriend&#39;s pussy."
"All my best friends are jealous of my size."
"How can I make my cock bigger?"
"Does jelquing really work?"
"Coworkers always comment on my gigantic bulge."

Is there anything like, new under the sun?
[post=352887]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]

Both your points are excellent and I agree with both fully. Topics keep on coming up for two reasons I guess:

1) There are new members all the time you have not read the previous posts and want to share their point of view on the topic.

2) The issue is still relevant.

In this case, routine neo-natal circumcision still continues in countries like the USA and therefore the fact that babies are still being mutilated and killed makes it very relevant. Like female circumcision, male circumcision is decreasing worldwide but both are doing so very slowly. People able to discuss this topic and look up information on the internet is one of the major reasons it is decreasing.
 

DC_DEEP

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And still yet, no circumcision supporters have explained to me why it is ok to cut off one piece of an infant, but not another. Would it be different if they were saying, "god demanded that we cut off his left ear when he is 3 days old. we have always done it, and we will continue to do it." Of course, if I were to have a son, and I decided to cut off his left ear instead of his foreskin, people would be shitting dill pickles, and I would be arrested on abuse charges and thrown in jail - even if I claimed it was my religious duty.
 

vega

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Umm actually if you read the posts you would see that I state specifically that it is the option of the individual. If a person want to remove their foreskin then so be it... Have you ever heard a newborn talk?

I am not telling people that they shouldn&#39;t do it, i&#39;m saying they shouldn&#39;t do it to their kids.

People are too scareed to question other people views because of the backlash that may occur. WEll gues what, unless people ask questions things never change. And this is something that I feel should be changed.

I don&#39;t force my views on anyone. If you make a decision tht in my views is a poor one I will tell you but in no way do i force that idea on the recipient.

I don&#39;t care how many times you say it. It is not the parents decision to cut their child&#39;s genitals apart. That is the childs body and noone else. Just because they can&#39;t talk doesn&#39;t mean they have no rights. The phrase "my child" does not mean they are your posession to do with as you like.

Say your 30 and uncut and suddenly your parents feel you should be cut. they don&#39;t get to make that decision do they? So why should they be able to make that decision whe they are unable to object.

If they pulled that when the kids was 5, 15, 12, 10... it doesn&#39;t matter. It should be the individuals decision and I&#39;ll bet money that very few children would agree to let you cut them apart after it has been fully and truly explained. And I don&#39;t mean explained as "you want to be like daddy right?"

You say it seems cruel? Admit it. It is cruel no matter how you slice it. Yes that was a sick and fairly appropriate joke.