Generals attacking "Rummy" Rumsfeld

[dong20]

But please do keep him talking, what an excellent oportunity to see what the unwashed masses are thinking.

Hi Mme Zora

LOL can you smell my B.O. from there? ooer :tongue:

 

[solong]

Dong, I think we’ve gotten way off the beaten path, and I think it actually started with you and your “hypothetical example. Why post an hypothetical example if it’s meaningless? Let me quote you here:

“Solong you are soooo missing my point. This was a hypothetical example not an exercise in applied or theoretical maths, keep it in perspective!!..... Hell's teeth solong what does it matter? it was hypothetical

”


Matter of fact, that was my point, too.


“See above.....For the last time it was HYPOTHETICAL what on earth have training camps, foxbat jets, Joe Wilson and Uranium got to do with this theoretical mathematical exercise? So much obfuscation.”


Not obsfucation, Dong. The hypothetical stuff- that's the confetti. Now with Foxbats and yellow cake uranium and poison gas is the reason we invaded Iraq.

Here's the site you can go to to find the information that I copied and pasted: http://www.pasadenaweekly.com/index.php

Thanks but it says 1113 days but you pasted 2027 which why I called you on it.

I agree that’s pretty goofy, too. I just copied and pasted it off their website, so, don’t ask me why it’s now suddenly changed. Maybe somebody brought that to their attention and they “fixed it.”


“You don't have accurate figures for the the current murder rates in Iraq, so you cannot state that Iraq is safer than my kitchen as a fact period! You can argue it till you grow old but that all you can do."


I don’t recall claiming ANYTHING AT ALL about Baghdad or Iraq and their national murder rate. (?) I just show that the murder rate for Kansas City Mo. was greater by our own records, for the same year, than the death toll of Americans in Baghdad .



Originally Posted by solong
So my point is this-- that's not bad at all for a war. We were told by the Democrats that we'd better get ready with 50,000 body bags, because we were about to get trounced. They are all wet, as usual.


“That's about as insensitive and crass a comment as I can imagine, nearly as much as your assertion that most slaves liked or indeed loved their masters so much that's why so many stayed around when freed. Tell that to the parents and relatives of those killed or the decendents of those slaves.

“1 body bag is 1 too many. I suggest you apologise solong. Right now”



I see nothing crass there, except Democrats trying to scare us that we are going to lose.

There is ONE FACT that you cannot deny, and it's the only point I've been trying to make. 1.63 American lives/day for the duration of the war. That was our casualty rate For both Afghanistan and Iraq, and it is so low, that it totally embarrasses the Media.


I don't intend to apologize for that, or for a bunch of communists masquerading as PAC groups who were trying to scare everybody, nor for a bunch of incompetent ex-generals who have their noses out of joint.

Now if you wish to talk abourt slavery again, why don't you start a thread?

 

[Freddie53]

Earlier, I was refered to as a faction writer when I referred to the American Empire. Well if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, then it must be a duck.

An empire is when a greater nation invated and rules other nations. We may be the most benevolent empire in the world. We have trooops scattered all over the world to see that Aemrican policy prevails. That is the stuff of an empire. We allow self rule in antions and a certain amount of politicl freedom. No we don't rule the whole world, but a big portion of it.

All those statistics got a bit boring th read. Here si the simple truth. A huge nation will almost unlimited resources invates a small nation lakcing in great miliatry power. The main military is defeated qutie handily. Three years later the great nation still have not conquorred and brought the little nation under control.

Yeah, I would say someone screwed up somewhere at the top. Now had Britain or Israel been allowed to call the shots on this one, Iraq wouldn't be in the news now. Don't have all these problems in the British section of Iraq. Wonder way.

We are playing half ass war. Our troops ater getting killed. Lifes are being lost. This isn't a game of monopoly to enjoy playing.

As far as I am concerned those statistics showing how well we have done can be taken and shoven in a place in Rummy and Bush where hopfully the sun never shines.

i've buried former students from this horrid war. The pain will ever be with me. I loved my children in school dearly. Their loss is mine as well.

 

[dong20]

Dong, I think we’ve gotten way off the beaten path, and I think it actually started with you and your “hypothetical example. Why post an hypothetical example if it’s meaningless? Let me quote you here:

“Solong you are soooo missing my point. This was a hypothetical example not an exercise in applied or theoretical maths, keep it in perspective!!..... Hell's teeth solong what does it matter? it was hypothetical”

I didn't say it was meaningless, do you see the word meaningless in my quoted text? You seriously trying to assign a causative factor is what was meaningless. What I actually said, and you can see was that it was hypothetical and used merely to illustrate the fundemental flaws in your logic.

Not obsfucation, Dong. The hypothetical stuff- that's the confetti. Now with Foxbats and yellow cake uranium and poison gas is the reason we invaded Iraq.

Got a dictionary? Take 5 and look up the meaning of hypothetical. Also obfuscation and confetti as well while you're there.

Thanks but it says 1113 days but you pasted 2027 which why I called you on it.

I agree that’s pretty goofy, too. I just copied and pasted it off their website, so, don’t ask me why it’s now suddenly changed. Maybe somebody brought that to their attention and they “fixed it.”

If you thought it was 'goofy' then you should have gone elsewhere for verfication as any sensible person seeking facts would have. Instead you blindly accepted it.

“You don't have accurate figures for the the current murder rates in Iraq, so you cannot state that Iraq is safer than my kitchen as a fact period! You can argue it till you grow old but that all you can do."

I don’t recall claiming ANYTHING AT ALL about Baghdad or Iraq and their national murder rate. (?) I just show that the murder rate for Kansas City Mo. was greater by our own records, for the same year, than the death toll of Americans in Baghdad .

That makes no sense, you say you didn't mention Baghdad but then in the next sentence that's exactly what you do

This is what you said:

...We've actually made it one of the safest places in the modern world....

You didn't qualify it with "for Americans" You were talking about Americans in the preceeding sentences but I can only assume your sentence above refered to Iraq as a whole. If it didn't your assertion is sunk because:

If you were talking about Iraq as a whole you don't have figures to prove what you say, you know it, I know it and so does everyone here. If you were talking just about Baghdad as a whole....ditto.

If you were just talking about Americans; repeating what I said in an earlier thread you cannot then use American Death rates in your calculations in a vacuum unless you also also rate them as a % of the overall Iraq population which I did and showed you exactly how wrong you were.

If you do so then your argument may as well apply in any country where at least one american is living it would that ludicrous.

A similar argument applies to Black people in inner cities, their death rates are much higher than the 'aggregated norm'. You can hide these variations in the national or local background rate. If want a true figure you must assess them in terms of Black people killed per 100k of black population and the rates skyrocket.

Thus, to get a true picture of American death rates for their population (rates <> numbers) in Iraq you must do the same thing, if you can't see this then you are beyond hope.

There is ONE FACT that you cannot deny, and it's the only point I've been trying to make. 1.63 American lives/day for the duration of the war. That was our casualty rate For both Afghanistan and Iraq, and it is so low, that it totally embarrasses the Media.

Afganistan! what about Afganistan? We are talking about Iraq.

I can and I do deny it. In a previous post you quoted 1.17, you later used a different value of 1440 days; 2379/1440=1.65. You previously said to Claire "...over the 4 years or whatever it is we've been over there..." Now you acknowledge a day count of 1113; 2379/1113=2.14. Solong, You can't even be wrong consistently.

I thought your point was that America has made Iraq one of the safest places in the modern world? (your words see above ).

I echo Freddie53 and Claire in that reducing this death toll to abstract numbers is just dehumanising and cheapening it. This is the last time I will correct your sums.

Now if you wish to talk abourt slavery again, why don't you start a thread?

You raised it in that thread in which you also made several factual errors which myself and others corrected. I used the reference here to illustrate how you appear to have a surreal view of these issues through some distorting rose tinted spectacles.

Originally Posted by solong
"Let's say the 2,379 death toll took place over 1460 days' time. That puts the American casualty rate per day at 1.63 deaths/day since the war began.....So my point is this-- that's not bad at all for a war...."

1 body bag is 1 too many. I suggest you apologise solong. Right now.

I stand by that, whatever the numbers may or not be it was an insult to those who died on your behalf, and mine.

I don't intend to apologize for that, or for a bunch of communists masquerading as PAC groups who were trying to scare everybody, nor for a bunch of incompetent ex-generals who have their noses out of joint.

Whether you agree with the war or not, thousands of people have died in the name of your country and others, they deserve our support and respect. Until you apologise (to them not me) for your stupifying insensitivity I will not continue this disussion with you.

You just made my argument solong; that reality is a strange and foreign land to you.

 

[dong20]

Yeah, I would say someone screwed up somewhere at the top. Now had Britain or Israel been allowed to call the shots on this one, Iraq wouldn't be in the news now. Don't have all these problems in the British section of Iraq. Wonder way.

We are playing half ass war. Our troops ater getting killed. Lifes are being lost. This isn't a game of monopoly to enjoy playing.

Thanks Freddie, I can't speak for Israel (though you are right and UK and Israel have some common experiences, militarily at least). Certainly the UK has had much experience in most aspects of urban suppression and decades of strife in N Ireland and it's impact on the Mainland has honed these skills.

Overall I would say our approach was focused less on force protection and was less 'proactive'. I think this was a key factor in the comparatively low UK casualty rates. I'm aware that this approach has drawbacks and some of our tactics have changed. I'm even more aware that I am on shaky ground here and will defer to those who really know what they are talking about, from experience.

The UK didn't have the historical 'baggage' that the current US administration inherited, well at least different baggage. The problem is that history is written by the victors so the 'truth' may never be fully known, at least in our lifetimes.

All this talk of 'numbers' and 'rates' in what is a very human situation has left a bitter taste in my mouth.

 

[solong]

Dong, Sorry you haver such a hard time, here. I'm finished with this discussion. You ignore what I say, and then toss out all the flak that you started with, and then bitch to me like a little girl complaining over 1.17 versus 1.63, and not even recognizing that the difference is between the number of days claimed for the war, by different liberal sources.

If you were using your head, you'd be able to agree (and I include "Freddie" and the Madame in this comment, too) that our casualties in Iraq, OR in both Afghanistan and Iraq are extremely low! We have our active generals and Rumsfeld to thank for that! They chose the right plan, and they did it right!

But you guys are kinda nuts, in my opinion. You ignore the point, and you go off on a toot about little bitty stuff to take exceptions with. You aren't big enough to admit anything, much less that you're wrong.

So Madame, if this is how the great unwashed speak, then I'll have to say you have SOME OPINION of your neighbors, girl! In your mind, they all stink!

And I'll tell you all this: You do NOT support your troops if yyou don't agree with them, or agree with their mission, or share in their pride, or respect their leadership, or love the civilian Iraqi people, or appreciate our country's ability to liberate them from a tyrant.

Now I'm sure you're going to object to that, and you should, but you can't say you haven't shown those feelings, over and over again, and Madame, whether you know it or not, you just called our occupational forces in Iraq "The Great Unwashed" too, since they will largely agree with me, and NOT because they are forced to (as you want to believe).

You guys want to take the communist viewpoint. Be my guest. Trash us, and belittle our military. Call us "Imperialists" Freddie. You are just letting everybody with good sense know who you really are. You don't even understand the meaning of the term!

I think you're all very anti-American, as far as our great commission is concerned. We have a huge responsibility and we put our lives on the line to protect everyone. And we owe a great debt to our fighting men. Without them, we would be toast! But while you give them your lip, they know damn-well you don't mean it. You're steeped in hypocrisy. You talk out of both sides of your mouths, and you gang together like vultures.

I think the vast majority here agree with me, and it's not worth the effort to argue the point further when you will not acknowledge the facts presented, or even dare mention General DeLong's comments which I pasted. I have plenty more, like an official statement from the Joint Chiefs who take on these turn-tail renegage generals and totally destroy them, but to post that to you would be a waste of time. You love your opinions, you love to gang up, you ignore the facts, you dismiss the points, and you harrangue the small stuff.

I'm forgeting this thread. And to anybody else, I'll just remind them of the old adage: "Don't argue with idiots. Nobody will be able to tell the difference."

 

[Dr Rock]

Until you apologise (to them not me) for your stupifying insensitivity I will not continue this disussion with you.

eh, don't sweat it. those of us who have lost friends and comrades in the middle east over the past 4 years are already familiar with the likes of sowrong, and how to deal with them.

 

[madame_zora]

schlong, I would just pass you by, but I'm just bored enough to respond to some of your mindless horseshit.

You are right- I disrespect MOST of my neighbors. They are too stupid not to. The Average American reads at a FOURTH grade level- why SHOULDN'T I disrespect that? You comprehend the world on about the same level. You are a follower and a plod. My only hope is that you are very young and may still grow out of it.

You insult Dr. Rock's understanding of war- but he has actually fought- have you? Those who have BEEN soldiers are less eager for war than those idiots chomping at the bit. If you've never taken up arms and marched in the field, I have no interest in your opinion of those who have. That act alone makes you an idiot in my eyes.

More Americans die on our own highways each week than have ever died in any war. That's a fact. More than on 9/11, more than in WWII, more than ANY war. Does that make the loss of life irrelevant? If that's your opinion, then GO DIE FOR IT! I worked in a cemetery and buried the young and the old. An idiot like you could never comprehend the meaning of death to the individuals impacted by it, clearly you need a road map for life still. Fuck you and your elitist, ignorant REPUBLICAN attitude.

Dying for a cause is noble. Being a nodding dashboard dog only makes you delusional, not noble. It's not "unamerican" to question bad policies, why do you think we fought for our independance to begin with? People like YOU would have had us towing the line for the British and claiming that the Patriotic movement was a rebellion. It was. It was still right. Blind obedience is still blind. Obey a bad leader and it's just not acceptable to excuse yourself by saying "I was just following orders." Where's your heart? Where's your head?


FWIW, you're not arguing with anybody, you're just displaying your ignorance for all to see. Your numbers are dwindling because the tenets simply don't have any content. Your whole postion leans on blind trust, and that is moronic at best. I am thankful that there are a growing number of my countrymen who, although not brilliant, are at least becomming willing to accept that some grievous errors have been made.


edit- I really need some new hobbies, but I had to quote this:
And I'll tell you all this:You do NOT support your troops if yyou don't agree with them, or agree with their mission, or share in their pride, or respect their leadership, or love the civilian Iraqi people, or appreciate our country's ability to liberate them from a tyrant.

I mean, there's really nothing more to add to that, is there?:tongue: schlong, you win the Darwin award for today. I swear I want to put that in my signature.

 

[dong20]

People like YOU would have had us towing the line for the British and claiming that the Patriotic movement was a rebellion. It was. It was still right.

And, Mme Zora, had you been alive at the time, I have a suspicion who would have been 'Mother' at a certain impromptu tea party. Enough said! :biggrin1:

 

[madame_zora]

And, Mme Zora, had you been alive at the time, I have a suspicion who would have been 'Mother' at a certain impromptu tea party. Enough said! :biggrin1:

Oh trust me, I'm mutha all the time!

And I can still smell your butt. :tongue:

 

[SpeedoGuy]

I have plenty more, like an official statement from the Joint Chiefs who take on these turn-tail renegage generals...

Well, if the turn-tail renegade generals calling for Rumsfeld's resignation are pursuing a personal agenda, what does that say about the motives of those officers defending Rumsfeld?

 

[dong20]

...And I can still smell your butt. :tongue:

Damn and I showered already...we haven't been introduced (though I guess smelling my butt comes close) so I'll say hello anyway :smile:

 

[solong]

1.63 American casualties/ day.

Doesn't that just piss off you socialists something awful?

Can you just imagine that?? 1.63 American casualties/day in wartime? And you STILL can't say anything nice about the plan? We understand. You're fucked.

 

[madame_zora]

1.63 American casualties/ day.

Doesn't that just piss off you socialists something awful?

Can you just imagine that?? 1.63 American casualties/day in wartime? And you STILL can't say anything nice about the plan? We understand. You're fucked.

Sure, it's still safer than playing in traffic, but at the expense of a national debt in the trillions, I think we could have found easier ways to keep our soldiers out of trouble.

You're still stupid. How old are you anyway?

 

[madame_zora]

Damn and I showered already...we haven't been introduced (though I guess smelling my butt comes close) so I'll say hello anyway :smile:

Hello, dahlink, pleased to make your acquaintance. *sniffs air* Irish Spring, good choice!

 

[Matthew]

I'm forgeting this thread.

Guess he forgot to forget.

 

[Freddie53]

Zora,

Bravo to all your posts lately. Not a word do I disagree with.

Here is the bottom line. One one side of the ring stands Uncle Sam the most powerful empire of all time capable of destroying the earth several times over.

On this side is a side kick dictator name Saddam who rules a two-bit nation that is basically backward.

And let the war begin:

Four years later the great empire is mired down in a stalemate with no end in side with a bankrupted government that has to borrow money from its enemy Chinca to keep afloat.

And you call this a wonderful game plan?

Let the winner of the Super Bowl play a seventh grade team and not be able to win and then not ask a few questions why?

This whole situation is so rediculous there isn't even a need to look at details to see that there is a problem. It is obvious it has been one screw up and after gaining speed every day.

The United States has lost its standing in the world, gone bankrupt, become a mean cop trying to rule the world outside its own jusrisdiction.

Maybe it is not ALL Rummy's fault. But he is in the middle of it.

In my small town, I dont' know a single retired miliatary person, Republican or Democrat who doesn't believe we have screwed up big time in Iraq.

 

[ClaireTalon]

1.63 American casualties/ day.

Doesn't that just piss off you socialists something awful?

Can you just imagine that?? 1.63 American casualties/day in wartime? And you STILL can't say anything nice about the plan? We understand. You're fucked.

1.63 casualties a day. I guess over 2000 families (you'll surely be able to give me the exact number) would be really happy to know their lost members are just 1.63 a day.

It's a fact that casualties happen in a war, and during an occupation. I guess those who enlisted voluntarily, who got recruited and those who did their tour there knew they were not up for a sunday's walk, and that they have considered the possibility of returning home as persona in a box. What pisses me off that four years obviously weren't enough to come to grips with the supporting networks that enable Saddam supporters, terrorists and other partisans to move light infantry equipment, such as mortars, into locations around American installations.

 

[rob_just_rob]

The "low" casualty rate would be something to brag about if there was some prospect of lasting success in Iraq.

Right now, it doesn't appear that there is. There's a seige mentality in the "safe" zones, and by most accounts, near anarchy outside those zones.

The occupation has turned a functioning state - one I wouldn't want to live in, but fairly decent by western standards, compared to its neighbours - into a failed state.

1.63 a day? Based on what's been accomplished, 0.0163 a day is far too high.

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

Makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it?