Illegible posting

earllogjam

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Do you think text messaging is bastardizing our language?

Most all the text messages I receive are written in a kind of shorthand that has become like another dialect that I understand but is not considered proper English.

The thoughts behind the messages are also chopped and many times not understandable. It is similar to the old telegraph letters but worse. There are no rules. Interesting enough, most people who text me are very young, teens and young adults. I just end up calling them to talk. I hate typing on a Blackberry. It's not that the person sending it can't write English or is a moron, it's just easier and faster to write in this obnoxious shorthand so it is becoming commonplace. Abbreviated words, lack of upper case letters, no punctuation, grammar liberties are all part of text messaging.

I wonder if this phenomenon is worldwide, across all languages and not just for English speakers?
 

AlteredEgo

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It's fashionably used as a blanket excuse for all sorts of things, but I've never seen it formally defined in such a way. All definitions I've seen (and I make no claims to be a serious student of the problem) state it in terms of reading difficulties.


My dyslexia inhibits my ability to communicate mathmatically. Becasue I developed excellent coping mechanisms before the start of school, it was not apparent to anyone that I was anything other than brilliant-but-lazy until I was in the eighth grade. Testing was not attempted until I was in the ninth grade and was never completed.

I understand mathmatical concepts very well. I do not have much ease with putting math sentences onto paper or solving problems. I have a very, very diffficult time applying the concepts I know, and remembering the concepts I learned.

I was always told, "Most people are either good at math or verbal skills. You've got excellent verbal skills so don't worry about your math skills too much. Just keep practicing." No one worried about my difficulty because my math skills are above average. I worry that my horrendous math skills count as 'above average'. If you could see that from my perspective you'd think that was sad indeed.

I learned excellent coping mechanisms very early somehow.

I began speaking at nine months of age. This is a bit precocious. My first words were a complete sentence. That's very precocious. Okay, okay, in its correct context, my first sentence was not grammatically correct. It was lacking a verb which I assure you my tone implied. "[Do] you see?" is not a normal thing to ask after nine months of complete gibbberish. I made my first attempt to read nine months later with success even understanding the word "refrigerator" on the first try. I wonder if I could have read sooner. I just never tried. I know I could not have spoken sooner. I remember things from before I had words for my thoughts. I was preoccupied with thoughts of freeddom. I felt limited, weak, and was frequently afraid. If I could have spoken, I would have.

Anyway, becasue I got that kind of start, I learned to cope without ever learning that I had something for which to compensate. In school, my homework took all evening and I had no free time. I stopped doing it becasue I didn't need to do homeowrk to learn. I get things the first time. I do not generally require review. Everyone thought I was just lazy, but math was devouring my childhood and I was still preoccupied with freedom. When I didi my homework all the answers were correct. When I took tests, my math scores fell below expectations. I was told to be careful with my calculations; told I was making 'careless mistakes'. Given an unlimited supply of time, I could accomplish anything. In a timed environment I struggled. My reading comprehension skills are superb. You'd never know how slowly I read just talking to me. I love to read, it just takes forever. One day, if you'd like a laugh, we can hook up on a voice chat platform. You can give me simple math problems requiring mostly addition and subtraction with limited division and multiplication. I'll solve the problems out loud, and you'll ask me the same question everyone who finds out how I think through number problems asks, "Have you always done math ass backwards? How the hell did that lead you to the correct answer?"

The typos you see in my posts are not usually because of my dyslexia. They are usually the result of:
  • My Mac keyboard is very sensitive and sometimes doubles the letters
  • My PC keyboard is less sensitive, and sometimes skips the letters
  • I seldom proof-read my posts because
  • I am usually on the phone with a client
There are words that I KNOW I do not know how to spell. I usually use a different word, or look it up if it's important to use that word (or time permits).

Anyway, that's my experience with dyslexia. It's much more than a simple reading problem for me, which is why I wasn't properly tested until well after school, by a friend of mine who went into education and who was curious.
 

dreamer20

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you'll get the most bang for your buck" in terms of responses if you present legible, cohesive thoughts.


For the word above I would have used intelligible and titled the thread "unintelligible posting" ,but I guess that's just me.:wink:
 

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We all make errors, as none of us (OK, I can think of a small handful) are Gods gift to conversational writing. It's more about an obvious lack of effort, and as Zora said, someone that can make sense when they feel like it but seldom choose to.
 

Kassokilleri2ff

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To investigate the factors determining why some children succeed at certain intellectual tasks while others of equal or near equal IQ, age, and motivation are unable to master the same task, 145 female and 144 male eighth grade students were administered "An Inventory of Piaget's Developmental Tasks" (IPDT). Labeled as concrete, operational, transitional, or formal operational thinkers according to inventory scores, the students were then given one of two grammar tests. Findings revealed significant correlation between grammar test scores, Piagetian stages, and IQ scores--indicating first, that the Piagetian stage as revealed by the IPDT is useful in predicting grammar test scores, especially when considered with IQ; and, second, that the task of identifying simple subjects and predicates is too difficult for most of the eighth grade students, including 47% of the students at the formal operations level, and a total of 74% of all students who took the test. The findings support Piaget's principle that children's cognitive development is a limiting factor in what they can learn at any given time. Results suggest that the abstract quality of grammar rules makes them too difficult for eighth grade students. (MM)

The Interaction of Piagetian Stages of Development in Early Adolescents, IQ Levels and Other Variables in Predicting Success on a Grammar Task.


Eighth graders can't identify a subject and verb? Scary!

First, let me make myself clear, the jury is still very much out on this issue. The main reason is that there is more than one type of "intelligence", which was not fully considered until the last twenty years. When I was in college, the dictionary definition of being able to acquire and apply knowledge as measured by objective criteria was universal. We didn't fully understand that no criteria is completely objective, nor that the types of intelligence measured my most IQ tests (spatial, language, logic) are not an exclusive list.

Kasso- despite your claim, it is more likely that you are insecure about being judged for your actual writing ability, so you write sloppy to give yourself a defense. The sad thing is that by letting others critique us, we get better. After being here almost two years, a friend of mine here presented me with a list of words I was regularly mispelling. Now, I type (and write) using British spellings in many cases and there are a couple words like "nomatter" that aren't really words, but I use them anyway. I'm talking about actual mispellings though. I wrote existance for existence, and several others. I've just been out of school for a very long time with nobody around to correct my spelling. It was very helpful. You might want to try opening up a little, because if you really do have weaker grammar skills, it won't just go away and you'll always feel "less than" when trying to communicate with others using the written word.

If I'm wrong and you're really just that icky combination of arrogant and ignorant, ignore my post.

DJG, I am also dyslexic. The good news is that you grow out of it to some degree MUCH later on, but I still spend more time editing than typing.:tongue: I couldn't read maps until I was well into my 30s.


Actually no, im not secure about anything, i also never said i was here to argue with people. My point basicly was, that just because you dont spell perfectly and have perfect grammar, does not mean your stupid. Plain and simple. And i used the example, that i argue with people online alot, or i watch people argue online. Whenever one side of the argument begins to fail, that person, resorts to pointing out grammar and spelling errors, as a means of justifying thier point. (obviously this does not)
And because of the fact, that neither side will ever give up on a certain subject, i figure, whoever resorts to spelling correction first loses.
No i dont spek lik dis 2 arguuu wit pplz.
What i say still makes sense, but i wont put it perfectly, because i wont resort to spelling correction! ahah! if i lose the argument i will concede.

Also, like your study there says, there are many kinds of inteligence. I think you would be able to tell the difference between sombody being lazy, and sombody who actually has a problem with language skills.
And if they do, you dont need to be mean to them about it. You already insulted me about my post. I feel bad for sombody who has a real problem and you just make them feel terrible.
As for me, I have perfect confidence in my abilities, and im certainly pompus about it. Maybe i think im better than you? I think is abstract and strange ways, obviously since my post jarred you to insult me. But hey, i dont care, i know i can spell and use my punctuations, and capitalize the first letter of every sentence.

Ahaha its not that hard, and i think for the most part, i do that in my posts here at lpsg. Why? because everybody here is inteligent and for the most part i dont see dickheads correcting spelling errors. So there is no point in me making some errors so that that person will target me, and i will slap him with my little theory from my other post. Im not insecure, i might be arrogant, not realy sure, and everybody is ignorant about somthing, you cant use ignorant as an insult. What was i ignorant about? What inteligence is correlated to? I think everybody is ignorant about that, since currently the definition of inteligence is changing.

But regardless, i think most people agree with me, that its pretty much just people being lazy, maybe the school system a little bit, and a few people with real language skills, who you should not be mean to because being mean never helped anybody :) or did it? lolz
 

agnslz

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I always love it when people go on about how bad others are at grammar and spelling, then proceed to mess up at those very things themselves, often in the same post.

I'm not great at grammar, especially punctuation (hence my current siggy), but that doesn't make me a fuckin' retard not worthy of being on the same board as those who like to make out they are perfect at such things.

I'm actually a high school dropout who got straight D's in most of my English and language arts classes throughout school, but I still think I do alright when it comes to the written language.

And yes, I read through the whole thread and know that the OP is now trying to make it clear that he doesn't think all people who are bad at these things are stupid, this is just a general post aimed at various posts and threads that I've seen in my time here which did strike that tone.

Also, Madame Zora's first post to this thread captures perfectly the attitude I have and which I hope others would have towards this issue.
 

madame_zora

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Kasso, you posted like an ignorant twat, that's why I insulted you. Here it is again, in case you forgot what you really said:

I have very good language and grammar skills, i pwn english and i used to read like... 24/7. I can write a paper with correct grammar and spelling and punctuation, but online i could not possibly care less.

Right away, you are telling people we are not worth the time to edit for. Great. I don't care about you either then.

Some people think grammar and spelling are an indication of inteligence. Another reason why in many cases i wont do things right. Language skills have been proven to have little correlation with inteligence.

Absolute falsehood. NOTHING of the sort has been "proven". I took offense at your unsubstantiated claim. Who made this "proof"? Where's your documentation?

I agree that there are different types of intelligence, but very little has been "proven" to any degree as the study of the mind is still in its infancy stages.

So if im arguing with sombody, i wont spell right, or use completely proper grammar. Why? because when they call me out on spelling and grammar, they have no points for thier argument anymore, meaning i win. lol.

This is called arguing for points, and I find it revolting. It is YOU who are lacking substance when you write poorly to leave yourself an out when you get called out on your points. That's exactly what I said earlier on, and I stand behind that statement. You are free to disagree, naturally.
Conversations are not about "winning", even the desire for that is just unseemly. Conversations are about learning. People call you out on your spelling and grammar because it's distracting and insulting. They will feel free to insult you back- deal with it.

I play alot of computer games and talk in chat rooms and get into alot of arguments and ive seen they often turn to spelling wars and dropping the original topic. lol. So bad spelling may help you!

Sure, set the bar low so you can just spring your brilliance upon them at unawares! I'm just soooooo impressed! *swoons* You really sound like a moron saying things like that, I hope you at least realise it.


And you might say, "why would you purposly make yourself look like an idiot" well again, language skills and inteligence have little correlation, so i want to make a point of it, by having valid debate points, inteligently stated, yet improperly spelled and "gramatisized" <--i dont think thats a word ahahah!) so when they do turn the argument to my spelling, ive won the main argument, and proved my point that you dont need to spell right to be smart. ^^

But you don't have valid debate points, you just present your own opinion as fact. Not very impressive. You don't make a good case for yourself, and I don't feel a bit bad about insulting you. You have to spell right to be understood, and if you don't care if the reader has a difficult time making sense of your gibberish, why would you even expect them to care about deciphering your brilliant "points"? They're too busy trying to figure out what the fuck you just said.:rolleyes:
 

madame_zora

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I always love it when people go on about how bad others are at grammar and spelling, then proceed to mess up at those very things themselves, often in the same post.

I'm not great at grammar, especially punctuation (hence my current siggy), but that doesn't make me a fuckin' retard not worthy of being on the same board as those who like to make out they are perfect at such things.

I'm actually a high school dropout who got straight D's in most of my English and language arts classes throughout school, but I still think I do alright when it comes to the written language.

And yes, I read through the whole thread and know that the OP is now trying to make it clear that he doesn't think all people who are bad at these things are stupid, this is just a general post aimed at various posts and threads that I've seen in my time here which did strike that tone.

Also, Madame Zora's first post to this thread captures perfectly the attitude I have and which I hope others would have towards this issue.

Sure, so do I. The last thing I would want is for someone who isn't confident in their writing abilities to refrain from posting because we've become grammar nazis (no offense, Alex- please continue!). It's pretty easy to tell the difference between those who are at least making an effort, and those like Kasso who just really don't give a fuck. I'll respond to a real post written in the most broken English, poor sentence construction, and believe me, I don't even know enough about the finer rules to get into the grammar conversations in which some of our members debate. Make it understandable, and that should be good enough.

As I stated earlier as well, it's a good opportunity for all of us to brush up on our skills too. What's wrong with learning a little bit about grammar along the way?
 

rob_just_rob

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It's well known that I suffer actual physical pain as a consequence of some of the "your/you're, there/their/they're, would have/would of, who's/whose" mix-ups in members' posts.

You should get that looked at. :rolleyes:

(My feud with people who misuse the word 'literally' and its equivalents is a topic for another thread, perhaps...:smile: )

I make spelling errors occasionally, and grammar errors more than I would like. I doubt that they bother anyone more than they bother me, and consequently the 1 hour edit limit here is a stress inducer.

I don't get too bothered about the occasional spelling errors or grammar errors made by other people. But when these errors pile up to the point where the post in question becomes hard to read, I stop reading it. I have a stack of books written in (mostly) grammatical styles, lined up waiting for me to read them. So why should I leave them alone to read something I don't enjoy reading?

In extreme cases, there's always the ignore function. Echoing MZ: If you can't be bothered to express yourself coherently, why should I bother to read what you have to say?
 

Kassokilleri2ff

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Kasso, you posted like an ignorant twat, that's why I insulted you. Here it is again, in case you forgot what you really said:



Right away, you are telling people we are not worth the time to edit for. Great. I don't care about you either then.

I couldnt care less if you care. This is not about caring.

Absolute falsehood. NOTHING of the sort has been "proven". I took offense at your unsubstantiated claim. Who made this "proof"? Where's your documentation?

And please, show me your proof and documentation. That link in your previous post proved nothing, please put a quote of an exact paragraph stating what you think is proof.

I agree that there are different types of intelligence, but very little has been "proven" to any degree as the study of the mind is still in its infancy stages.

And this adds nothing to either side because years into the future either side could be proven wrong, so should we postpone this untill we know more about the human brain?


This is called arguing for points, and I find it revolting. It is YOU who are lacking substance when you write poorly to leave yourself an out when you get called out on your points.
im not getting called out on my points..., thats the point, the fact that they can no longer call me out on my points, and use spelling correction as a retort. lol.

That's exactly what I said earlier on, and I stand behind that statement. You are free to disagree, naturally.
Conversations are not about "winning", even the desire for that is just unseemly. Conversations are about learning.

Oh yes indeed, they are about learning, but im trying to learn about a specific subject. Lets say we are arguing over the existance of god. I learn your side, you learn my side, and with all the information we have a better view, and can settle what we think about the subject. But if i make some good points that you cant say anything to, i dont want to learn what words i spelled wrong, im trying to learn your side of the argument.

People call you out on your spelling and grammar because it's distracting and insulting. They will feel free to insult you back- deal with it.


So my perfectly valid point in a debate is negated because i misspelled a word. Ok, you make sense ahaha. Hilarious. If a homeless bum who never learned to read or write tried to debate with you, would you simply shrug him off because he is illiterate? Would his whole argument mean nothing because he cant spell "astronomical" or somthing.
Also if im debating sombody im not the one insulting. In this case you were the one to throw down the gauntlets of verbal abuse.

If you are debating sombody, and you cant stay on topic, you cant retort, what does that mean? Certainly not "correct his spelling errors! thats a good retort yea!" No.

Sure, set the bar low so you can just spring your brilliance upon them at unawares! I'm just soooooo impressed! *swoons* You really sound like a moron saying things like that, I hope you at least realise it.

Exactly! Its like basketball, i pretend to suck at handling the ball, then i bust out a sick move and break your ankles.
But in this case, i make a couple spelling errors, you cant retort to whatever statement i made, so you correct my spelling and forfiet! If you think im an idiot i dont care.


But you don't have valid debate points, you just present your own opinion as fact. Not very impressive. You don't make a good case for yourself, and I don't feel a bit bad about insulting you. You have to spell right to be understood, and if you don't care if the reader has a difficult time making sense of your gibberish, why would you even expect them to care about deciphering your brilliant "points"? They're too busy trying to figure out what the fuck you just said.:rolleyes:

You havent disproved any of my points yet. The correlation between inteligence and language skills is pending if you can dig up a document. What opinion did i say was fact? I said language skills have little correlation with intelligence. If there are in fact, sections of intelligence, sombody could be poor with language, yet excell in other areas. Is this person stupid? No, they are smart, but cant spell. I also said, that i only make some mistakes on purpose, i said that its perfectly inteligible, but somthing might be spelled wrong. The reader does not have a difficult time deciphering my "gibberish"

Hmm i wonder. You can have spell check and grammar check on your computer. Is your computer smart? Or does it simply know what words should or should not go together?
Spelling correctly comes from learning how specific words are spelled. Repetition. Same with grammar, am i wrong? I doubt that. Maybe more intelligent people can grasp it easier, learn it faster, but that applies to everything. Regardless of how smart you are, it takes practice to learn how to spell right, and follow all the rules, and counter rules (cant think of somthing better atm ^^) and all the shit that comes with proper grammer and such. So an idiot, can study and try hard to learn these things, and they can do it, and you would never know any better, because you think if I cant spell, then im an idiot. Ive already seen sombody post here, saying they suck at spelling, but i know that person is not dumb.

So rather than getting angry at me, and throwing out insults, can we have some civilized debates. Because i like lpsg, I thought if i debate with sombody here, and i spell a word wrong, we can continue our debate. Rather than have a spelling bee. I already had a debate with sombody else, and i was just typing normal, having a somwhat nice debate, and that guy started fixing certain words i spelled wrong. I was not doing it on purpose, i was actually using proper grammar and trying to spell correctly, although in the heat of battle some things go awry. But it went down the spelling bee road, and at that point, dont you think the debate is over? When two inteligent people cant debate about a subject, because they think you are wrong because you spelled "purple" wrong. Do you see what i mean? Does this not make sense at all?

If need be ill explain my thought process on the correlation of intelligence and language skills. Throw some papers at me, i would enjoy the challenge, bring it on madame ^^
 

madame_zora

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Kasso, I'm not trying to debate you. I said what I wanted to say and I'm done. You DID say it was proven that there was no correlation between spelling and intelligence, and I even posted in your own words, which you know because you reposted my whole fucking post both times.

You DID say that you spelled badly so that you could laugh at people and claim you "pwned" them when they brought it up. You sounded stupid, and I laughed.
 

DC_DEEP

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This might have been the only site I read the ToS for.. usually I just click and go, I don't have time to sit there and read that. Nor do I usually care. Especially when it is for software, freeware, etc. I want it to work, and be usable in to smallest amount of time.

Maybe if we could set up a reading test to make sure people got and read the rules. Oh... in the perfect world.
I understand that you don't want to take the time to read every single ToS on the web, but on sites where you have to spend money (airline tickets?) or sites where you spend a lot of time (LPSG?) you really should read such boring documents as ToS and license agreement...

A few misspelled words won't make me cringe. What bothers me more than anything is poor reading comprehension. If you're going to comment on someone's post, please read it carefully before doing so.
Most of us don't mind a few misspelled words, but the posts that are almost indecipherable are just simply annoying and waste space on the server. LPSG is a community, and we do have some community standards.
 

B_HappyHammer1977

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I'm getting more than a little concerned that our school system is failing us based on many (certainly NOT all) of the posts submitted by younger members these days. Improper spelling, no adjectives, no punctuation, incorrect use of punctuation, and lack of upper case characters where appropriate are just a few of the liberties being taken with the English language around here. I'm not talking about the use or "r u horny" or "see u later". I personally don't write like this, but I understand that there's an internet culture that does.

I know that for some, English is a secondary language and I applaud those people for making an effort to communicate in written form when they're a little unsure of themselves. But "English as a second language" LPSG patrons surely are not a massive percentage of the posts in question here.

I'm not bringing this up simply to exercise my whining muscles. I mention it because many of the Original Posts butcher the English language to the point where the idea being presented is indecipherable and therefore many people don't respond due to lack of comprehension. Please take a minute to proof read your thoughs before hitting the SUBMIT button people. Since your reason for taking the time to post must be to present an idea or pose a question, you'll get the most "bang for your buck" in terms of responses if you present legible, cohesive thoughts.


"Here hear!" (sic)
 

Big Dreamer

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A few misspelled words won't make me cringe. What bothers me more than anything is poor reading comprehension. If you're going to comment on someone's post, please read it carefully before doing so.

Your point played out well in this particular thread, MB. The original idea was that it's appreciated if you take a quick read of your posts to ensure that others will have a shot at understanding them. Many of the responses I received were of the "I'm not stupid because I spelled a word wrong" variety.

It's not about spelling, it's about have respect for people you share a community with.
 

Full_Phil

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---by letting others critique us, we get better---

The sad thing is---we don't let people critique us any more. I'm in the writing business, so I'm more than a bit biased, but the quality of writing from younger people coming out of our own schools and colleges is being outdistanced by graduates from abroad. A person who can display a clear ability to write well still has a real leg up on the competition, however. We now have teachers, radio and television spokespeople, politicians, etc---who speak in terrible English, not even counting the use of questionable idioms, which is another major part of the problem. Our students are not held accountable for spelling or grammar, and we now consider a spelling bee a sport to be watched on ESPN as if only a very few are able to compete. It is argued that the needs of our economy no longer require good linguistic skills, but I can tell you that they still count and still matter. Good for those who cry out in the enveloping fog!
 

earllogjam

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but the quality of writing from younger people coming out of our own schools and colleges is being outdistanced by graduates from abroad.

Has the high school diploma in America just become a certificate for showing up?

Is it something you no longer have to earn? I would think at a minimum you would have to be able to put an intelligible sentence together to graduate from school, and that would include spelling, grammar, and punctuation.

Are these folks the growing population of the functionally illiterate? I went into the drug store the other day and was looking for some nail clippers and the display had the products all neat and tidy in their pegs. But the labels and the products were all mismatched. I asked the manager what gives and he said that the person they hired couldn't read very well but was an excellent employee otherwise. Huh? Have our standards dropped that low?
 

madame_zora

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One of the saddest days in my life was the first time I went into a fast food restaurant and saw actual cartoon pictures of the food on the keys of the cash register so the stupid illiterate employees could figure out how to ring up my order. At the risk of sounding like an old fogey, when I worked in service jobs, we actually had to memorise the prices! I worked at McDonald's, like almost every other kid, and we actually had to be able to perform these simple functions and pass a test to get the job. No longer. I have actually been waited on by people so stupid they couldn't string together a response even to a simple question like "Does that sandwich come with mayonnaise?" See, I hate mayo so it's an important question. I get resentful when my question is met with a blank stare and drool coming out the side of someone's mouth.

I also worked at my uncle's produce store for a while, and we had to memorise the prices on the fruits and vegetables too, and keep up with all the ongoing price changes. There are no price tags to scan on fresh fruit. We had to be able to stock shelves, handle money, provide store security (oddly enough, we were often visited by gypsies, who would rob us blind)
operate the salad machines that had very few safety features :rolleyes: , lift boxes up to 100 lbs (but most were under 50) and if we ever had a complaint, we were fired. He had no problem telling us how many people would be glad to take out $5 an hour from us. He was right, that was far above minimum wage at the time- I lived fat on that money as a college kid.

We've lowered the standards so far that it's hard to argue that our minimum wage employees "deserve" more money. I don't mean that as human beings they don't deserve to live adequately, I mean that the job descriptions don't warrant more money. We've become a bottom feeding society and we're losing face around the world because of it.