If someone has cheated on you, did it affect you more that your partner had had someone else, or that someone else had had your partner?
Infidelity, a question.
- Thread starter Drifterwood
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That he'd had someone else. I didn't give fuck about her and what she had, didn't have, got out of it or not.
It's a long, long time ago now. I did have to think a few moments.
It's a long, long time ago now. I did have to think a few moments.
AlteredEgo
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I was angry with him for his deceit. I made my expectations clear, and he lied to me over and over. When he couldn't stomach the guilt any longer, he told me everything. I was eventually angry about that aspect too. SO, after some thought, I conclude that I was most upset that he'd had someone else. I could have had someone else too, many someones else. I chose him every day, and apparently some days he did not choose me back. That really hurt.
Other than his one lover who'd been a close friend of mine, and therefore did owe me loyalty, I didn't care about those girls. Much like ManlyBanisters already said, their take was irrelevant to me. His actions were all that mattered.
Other than his one lover who'd been a close friend of mine, and therefore did owe me loyalty, I didn't care about those girls. Much like ManlyBanisters already said, their take was irrelevant to me. His actions were all that mattered.
B_subgirrl
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I've not actually had someone cheat on me, and maybe I'd feel differently if it actually happened, but I think I'd be most upset about him sharing that part of him (no, not the physical part) with someone who wasn't me.
Towards the person he did it with, I doubt I'd feel too upset. Pretty much for the same reason Altered Ego gave - they have no loyalty to me (unless they are a friend) so there's been no betrayal.
Of course, this IS all hypothetical, and based on my ethics rather than my emotions. For all I know, if I was cheated on I might turn up to the other woman's house and bash her into tiny pieces.
Towards the person he did it with, I doubt I'd feel too upset. Pretty much for the same reason Altered Ego gave - they have no loyalty to me (unless they are a friend) so there's been no betrayal.
Of course, this IS all hypothetical, and based on my ethics rather than my emotions. For all I know, if I was cheated on I might turn up to the other woman's house and bash her into tiny pieces.
Bbucko
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Back (way) back when I still believed in fidelity and self-imposed rules, that's precisely how I felt.
Really picky point here - fidelity isn't something one can believe in or not believe in. Fidelity either is or isn't. And either that is important to you or it isn't.
And all relationships have rules of what's acceptable behaviour and what is not - not just sexual relationships but friends and family too. There are certain treatments one just doesn't put up with, what those are specifically varies from person to person but the rules are pretty much always self-imposed, either taking the societal norm as the basis or not.
Also, fidelity and monogamy are not the same thing - I know you know that, B. But many people often confuse them. If both partners agree that undisclosed NSA sex with other people can be part of their relationship then, no matter how many NSA fucks either of them has they are still being faithful.
Definitely the lie. It's been a very, very long time since it happened but catching him with another woman hurt. It didn't matter who the other person was, it was my trust he violated. I remember thinking that it was all so ridiculous, that if he didn't want to be with me anymore he should have just said so. I kept a good game face on while I confronted him, but I cried when I left. It cut deep.
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I was more upset that she had someone else, not that someone else had her.
I was crazy in love with a girlfriend I had been living with for a little over a year. It was the summer and I was working 60 - 70 hours a week, she was spending a lot of time at her parents' house near the beach. She slept with a guy I knew but was not friends with. What was so painful for me was that I had trusted her completely and never worried that she'd cheat on me, despite the fact she was very hot and hit on constantly, because I knew she loved me. As crushing as this was for me, I understood it in a way. I was 27 and she was 22, and I knew she was young and needed to go out and live a little and find herself, which is something I had already had more of a chance do and was ready to "settle down." I was still very, very sad about it for a year afterwards and was afraid I would never fall in love again. (I did)
I would probably never even think about it that much anymore except, unfortunately, the guy became famous and is on television. Every time I see him, I have to change the channel because I can't help but remember what a painful time for me that was.
I was crazy in love with a girlfriend I had been living with for a little over a year. It was the summer and I was working 60 - 70 hours a week, she was spending a lot of time at her parents' house near the beach. She slept with a guy I knew but was not friends with. What was so painful for me was that I had trusted her completely and never worried that she'd cheat on me, despite the fact she was very hot and hit on constantly, because I knew she loved me. As crushing as this was for me, I understood it in a way. I was 27 and she was 22, and I knew she was young and needed to go out and live a little and find herself, which is something I had already had more of a chance do and was ready to "settle down." I was still very, very sad about it for a year afterwards and was afraid I would never fall in love again. (I did)
I would probably never even think about it that much anymore except, unfortunately, the guy became famous and is on television. Every time I see him, I have to change the channel because I can't help but remember what a painful time for me that was.
I was more upset that she had someone else, not that someone else had her.
I was crazy in love with a girlfriend I had been living with for a little over a year. It was the summer and I was working 60 - 70 hours a week, she was spending a lot of time at her parents' house near the beach. She slept with a guy I knew but was not friends with. What was so painful for me was that I had trusted her completely and never worried that she'd cheat on me, despite the fact she was very hot and hit on constantly, because I knew she loved me. As crushing as this was for me, I understood it in a way. I was 27 and she was 22, and I knew she was young and needed to go out and live a little and find herself, which is something I had already had more of a chance do and was ready to "settle down." I was still very, very sad about it for a year afterwards and was afraid I would never fall in love again. (I did)
I would probably never even think about it that much anymore except, unfortunately, the guy became famous and is on television. Every time I see him, I have to change the channel because I can't help but remember what a painful time for me that was.
:hug:
helgaleena
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Absolutely right, MB: I meant monogamy when I said fidelity. I have little if any interest in attempting another monogamous relationship, but have every expectation of finding another partner eventually. It would be contingent on his ability to be trustworthy within the rules we'd agree to mutually. Monogamy = no outside sexual partners, fidelity = trust.
My last attempt failed when he proved untrustworthy; I cannot abide a liar.
THEDUDEofDestiny
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It is "correct" not to care about the other person, but I am not sure that I would always believe people so easily signing up to this POV. Several reasons, first, why do people take revenge on the other person? Secondly, why do I hear so often people talking about "my man", my BF, my GF? This implies a form of ownership or at least an entitlement of expectation. This is mine and I am not sharing.
What value the trust in the sex of monogamy, when it is at best infrequent and mediocre as we hear so often on this board? I have never had a problem distinguishing, relationships, intimacy and sex and like MB, I had to think way back to find a time when I should have been upset by cheating, but when I thought about, I couldn't have cared less.
What value the trust in the sex of monogamy, when it is at best infrequent and mediocre as we hear so often on this board? I have never had a problem distinguishing, relationships, intimacy and sex and like MB, I had to think way back to find a time when I should have been upset by cheating, but when I thought about, I couldn't have cared less.
The question of why people take revenge on the 3rd party(ies) is, to my mind, fairly simple. It is easier to hate and blame someone you didn't love in the first place than it is to hate and blame someone you love(d) and trusted.
It is more a transference of the negative emotions one is feeling towards the person one trusted.
Accepting that fault of the person you trusted is also accepting that you made a mistake in judging that person worthy of trust. In my opinion people beat themselves up far too much over that kind of thing. In order to have fulfilling relationships with other human beings (whether or not sex plays a part) we have to let them in. We have to trust and be trusted. We make mistakes of judgement sometimes, take things at face value, or even read hidden 'truths' that aren't there. Also we agree to be trusted with responsibility sometimes and it turns out we're not up to it, or that it entails so much more than we thought when we agreed to it. That's life, that is the human condition. We really shouldn't hold it against ourselves, or each other.
As for your question of possessive pronouns - what other language do you suggest? Do you expect people to always say 'the (wo)man I am married to' / 'the (wo)man I am in a serious relationship with'? It's a bit long winded and silly - it is just as silly as saying 'the woman who gave birth to me/ was my prime female caregiver' instead of 'my mother'. Come on, Drifter. The possessive there is simply a short cut. More often than anything I refer to 'the man I am in a serious relationship and intending to marry' by his given name (or by the name by which he is most commonly known to the people I am addressing - i.e. Hick / HickBoy for the audience here).
And if there is an element of 'this is mine and I'm not sharing' to monogamous relationships, so what? As long as both parties are happy with that. I agree that there are relationships where the feelings of entitlement and the expectations of the parties don't match - I was in one myself for a long time. (In my case the mismatch was not relating to sex or fidelity.) But again, that's between the two people. Any couple (or triumvirate or whatever) need to communicate their expectations and the 'rules' (for want of a better word) under which they are happy to operate, and that should cover far more than just who sticks what sexual organ where and with whom.
It does seem unjust that the societal norm is monogamy and those that choose something else are looked down upon as, at best, dysfunctional by others. The fact I have chosen monogamy doesn't change my distaste that others are judged as lacking for having different needs from my own. What can I do though? What can any of us do? Our only defence is to be completely honest, both with ourselves and those we want to love us, about what we expect and need, even - no especially - when we don't actually know what that is.
It is more a transference of the negative emotions one is feeling towards the person one trusted.
Accepting that fault of the person you trusted is also accepting that you made a mistake in judging that person worthy of trust. In my opinion people beat themselves up far too much over that kind of thing. In order to have fulfilling relationships with other human beings (whether or not sex plays a part) we have to let them in. We have to trust and be trusted. We make mistakes of judgement sometimes, take things at face value, or even read hidden 'truths' that aren't there. Also we agree to be trusted with responsibility sometimes and it turns out we're not up to it, or that it entails so much more than we thought when we agreed to it. That's life, that is the human condition. We really shouldn't hold it against ourselves, or each other.
As for your question of possessive pronouns - what other language do you suggest? Do you expect people to always say 'the (wo)man I am married to' / 'the (wo)man I am in a serious relationship with'? It's a bit long winded and silly - it is just as silly as saying 'the woman who gave birth to me/ was my prime female caregiver' instead of 'my mother'. Come on, Drifter. The possessive there is simply a short cut. More often than anything I refer to 'the man I am in a serious relationship and intending to marry' by his given name (or by the name by which he is most commonly known to the people I am addressing - i.e. Hick / HickBoy for the audience here).
And if there is an element of 'this is mine and I'm not sharing' to monogamous relationships, so what? As long as both parties are happy with that. I agree that there are relationships where the feelings of entitlement and the expectations of the parties don't match - I was in one myself for a long time. (In my case the mismatch was not relating to sex or fidelity.) But again, that's between the two people. Any couple (or triumvirate or whatever) need to communicate their expectations and the 'rules' (for want of a better word) under which they are happy to operate, and that should cover far more than just who sticks what sexual organ where and with whom.
It does seem unjust that the societal norm is monogamy and those that choose something else are looked down upon as, at best, dysfunctional by others. The fact I have chosen monogamy doesn't change my distaste that others are judged as lacking for having different needs from my own. What can I do though? What can any of us do? Our only defence is to be completely honest, both with ourselves and those we want to love us, about what we expect and need, even - no especially - when we don't actually know what that is.
B_subgirrl
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Because they're too stupid to realise that their partner would have cheated anyway - that it had nothing to do with who he/she was cheating with?
I think it is not so much about taking ownership of the person. It is more that it signifies that the person has some kind of a relationship with us. Without the 'my', the words just become random nouns.
We call our parents 'MY mum' and 'MY dad'. It doesn't signify that we aren't willing to share them, after all, many of us share them with siblings, happily. It merely suggests that they are in a relationship with us. Although in this case, dropping the 'my' makes the words titles (proper nouns), rather than general nouns (unless you add an 'a' on front or something similar).
That's what makes it so valuable to some when they DO find it. Whether or not we SHOULD trust in it is another question.
Interesting. Why didn't you care? Is it because you didn't love the person? Or was it just that you separate sex and love so well that you realised that only sex had been shared, and therefore you weren't upset? Or was it something else?
I'd love to be able to have the second view on sex outside of relationships. It's what my logic-brain agrees with. But when it comes down to it, my emotions get in the way.
Edit: Just read your earlier post MB and realised you said many of the same things. Apologies for repeating.
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Some people don't want the person who they do the 'sexual organ shuffle' with doing it with anyone else. So they enter into a social contract to be sexually exclusive and trust them not to break that contract.
The fact that this is, it would seem, a socially learnt behaviour rather than a natural one is neither here nor there.
My neighbour has a key to my house, I have a key to hers. We are close. We both have implied permission to go to each others' houses and borrow / take things if we need them and the other is not there. We trust each other not to take things we do not really need or can't get elsewhere and to report what we have taken / borrow and (sometimes) replace it. Our natural instinct should be to hoard, to take what we can from the other. The fact that we don't is a socially learned behaviour. Are we wrong to trust each other, to expect that the other not just take what she likes?
I glossed over part of your post, not reading it properly:
And now I read it I think ah... there is the nub of the argument. Of your argument anyway.
That sex is good or bad in a monogamous relationship is often far more to do with outside factors than with sex. Some people put up with that and complain about it, some look for a solution outside of the relationship, some look for a solution in the relationship.
The fact that you focus in on the first and second groups and what they report says as much about you as the fact that I recall loads of posts here about fantastic sex in long term relationships here says about me. We each see what we want to.
Also, you report that "the sex of monogamy [...] is at best infrequent and mediocre" and that is a blatant untruth. There are plenty of posts here, elsewhere on the internet and other attestations of wonderful, fulfilling monogamous sex. I can attest to some myself. Perhaps you meant to add your 'often' in elsewhere in the sentence, because it currently reads as if you are asserting that monogamous sex is never frequent or better than mediocre.
Also - different people have different needs - even if sex in a given relationship is shit it isn't the most important factor for a lot of people. Plenty of folks I know are willing to take sex that doesn't necessarily blow them out of the water if the other things in the relationship (e.g. companionship, security) are right. That you don't value those things as highly as other is, to them, immaterial. Stop judging people by your own standards.
And now I read it I think ah... there is the nub of the argument. Of your argument anyway.
That sex is good or bad in a monogamous relationship is often far more to do with outside factors than with sex. Some people put up with that and complain about it, some look for a solution outside of the relationship, some look for a solution in the relationship.
The fact that you focus in on the first and second groups and what they report says as much about you as the fact that I recall loads of posts here about fantastic sex in long term relationships here says about me. We each see what we want to.
Also, you report that "the sex of monogamy [...] is at best infrequent and mediocre" and that is a blatant untruth. There are plenty of posts here, elsewhere on the internet and other attestations of wonderful, fulfilling monogamous sex. I can attest to some myself. Perhaps you meant to add your 'often' in elsewhere in the sentence, because it currently reads as if you are asserting that monogamous sex is never frequent or better than mediocre.
Also - different people have different needs - even if sex in a given relationship is shit it isn't the most important factor for a lot of people. Plenty of folks I know are willing to take sex that doesn't necessarily blow them out of the water if the other things in the relationship (e.g. companionship, security) are right. That you don't value those things as highly as other is, to them, immaterial. Stop judging people by your own standards.
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