Marriage-The topic

jay_too

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[quote author=Javierdude24 link=board=99;num=1077501486;start=60#78 date=03/07/04 at 08:23:37]Could be, but it doesnt work like that. Christians believe that everything in the bible is written by Gods hand. Thus, God gave his word through the apostels and profest, and they wrote it down.

That is why it still remains an issue for Chrsitians, even though Jesus never mentioned it himself. [/quote]

Dude..

You are not the first to try to reconcile a bisexual nature and Christianity. Read The City of God. St. Augustine discusses his ill-spent youth and his tendencies. After a torturous path, he concludes that there are two categories of sin: those of the flesh and those of the soul. Because God gave man a carnal side, sex will always lead man astray. These transgression,he contends, are of less import than those of the soul, namely hypocrisy, pride, arrogance, etc. The latter are the areas in which man should devote his attention and concern.

These ideas are from a man who may have had as influence as any on the Church. While it has been 6 or 7 years since I have the book, I think my memory is good.

jay
 
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Javierdude22: Dude, your fantastic :)

I had no idea about that book, and I am definately gonna read that. You might very well be right on the flesh/soul distinction. Tricky stuff...thats for sure.
 

B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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[quote author=Javierdude24 link=board=99;num=1077501486;start=60#78 date=03/07/04 at 08:23:37]

Could be, but it doesnt work like that. Christians believe that everything in the bible is written by Gods hand. Thus, God gave his word through the apostels and profest, and they wrote it down.[/quote]

Javier, that has never been the teaching of the Church. The Scriptures were not written by God's hand, nor were the words dictated by God. The Holy Spirit inspired the authors, He touched their hearts and minds; He didn't jump into their bodies and possess them in order to write the Bible. The Church has always accepted that the Bible, though composed under the authority of God, was written by men. These men - patriarchs, prophets, apostles, evangelists - though touched by God, were still men. They were still bound by the mores of their time. As men, they were imperfect creatures. We, ourselves, are imperfect creatures. The Bible may be a sign post to God, but it is not God Himself. Don't make the mistake of getting distracted by the sign post and losing sight of the true Destination. God recognises our humanity and our imperfection ... and guess what? He doesn't care that we're not perfect. We all have to make our own way in this world, and the Bible has an honoured place in the best guides to do so, but none of us get the same message out of it. We do our best, and God applauds our efforts. We stumble, and God forgives us. But remember, whatever your relationship with God is yours alone. What's right for you may not be right for others. That's why we have a conscience. The Bible's all fine and good, but it's not the be-all of our Christian vision.
 
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ceg1526: From the Baltimore Catechism (see Mom, I still remember):

Q. Which are the Commandments that contain the whole law of God?

A. The Commandments which contain the whole law of God are these two: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, with thy whole soul, with thy whole strength, and with thy whole mind; and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Q. Why do these two Commandments of the love of God and of our neighbor contain the whole law of God?

A. These two Commandments of the love of God and of our neighbor contain the whole law of God because all the other Commandments are given either to help us to keep these two, or to direct us how to shun what is opposed to them.

If we could remember these two commandments and ignore the bureaucratic regulations, we'd be much better off.

Take care,

Ceg
 
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Javierdude22: DMW, of course I agree with everything you said. I wanna point out though that I did not man literally what I stated.

I meant pretty much the same as you mentioned, that through the spirit these people wrote the books of the bible. In some cases of course the words wére literally written down from Gods words, but those cases are few.

By the way, how did the subject evolve into this? This time it wasnt me! ;)
 
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Inwood: The subject evolves as everyone tries to clarify their thoughts and beliefs on this particular thread. It's not off track. This particular item was one I was going to bring up if someone hadn't beat me to it.

In the church in which I was raised the bible is considered to be inspired by God. (But as far as can be determined only two sentences are actually spoken by Christ. I believe one has something about love in it but can't remember the other.) However since it has been written down or interpreted by man it suffers from being touched by the hand of man and is not "pure." So our church believes that everyone has to apply themselves to try to understand what the bible means and not rely on someone elses interpretation as being the final word on the matter.

But that's just my particular church.
 

lacsap1

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And back to the original topic;

Society has become accustom to what they believe is “normal” by their traditions and religious beliefs. Many conservative people believe that same-sex marriage is not “normal.” But the simple fact is that banning same-sex marriage is DISCRIMINATION. Marriage is the basic human right that should not be denied to anyone. Marriage among minorities has come a long way in becoming accepted as “normal” in the eyes of society. Interracial marriage was prohibited, and unacceptable in the United States, until the Supreme Court ruled such bans unconstitutional in 1967. There is no reason that the federal government, or anyone for that matter, should restrict marriage to a predefined heterosexual relationship. Because it is the right of the homosexual legally, socially, and economically, matrimony between lesbian and gay couples should be accepted in the US. Because this country has been founded on the Constitution, in which all men are created equal; we cannot deny the basic human and legal right of marriage to a class of individuals due to their sexual preference.

The question is not, why would homosexuals want to marry? Why would any human being want to marry? The question really is: why would anyone want to deny this basic human thing to a group of people in our society who wish no one any harm, but wish to affirm the values of commitment and fidelity that every other people takes for granted. Homosexual couples are not asking for anything more than the opportunity, the chance, the free will of marrying whom they wish as heterosexuals do.

It is very difficult for some people to accept a change in things that differ from their everyday life and the way they were brought up. If those individuals could look at same-sex marriage open-mindedly they could see that they have been withholding.

There is no logical reason that society should reject the act of same-sex marriages because it is the right of gay and lesbian couples legally, socially, and economically.


=======================================
"It is not the homosexual who is perverse, but the society in which he/she lives." -Rosa Von Praunheim
 
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Javierdude22: [quote author=lacsap1 link=board=99;num=1077501486;start=80#87 date=03/08/04 at 14:48:12]
There is no logical reason that society should reject the act of same-sex marriages because it is the right of gay and lesbian couples legally, socially, and economically.
[/quote]

I dont mean to cut you off or anything, cause rationally speaking you would be right....but....welcome to the real world where everything that seems so logical really isnt, or isnt thought to be. Discrimination, although fomally non existent is still widespread among blacks and Native Americans who have fought for it through blood sweat and tears for centuries now. And look where they are...this will be a very, very long battle.
 

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Correct you are, Javy. Even those who everyone thinks are friends to the Indians are simply practicing another form of racism. (Kevin Costner, for example.)

At the same time I'll say that metaphor can be dangerous as long as gay publications all but ignore, shall we say, a darker shade of pink. When black and brown queers do appear in mainstream gay publications, it's with a white MOTSS.
 

B_RoysToy

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[quote author=Javierdude24 link=board=99;num=1077501486;start=80#88 date=03/08/04 at 15:15:40]

I dont mean to cut you off or anything, cause rationally speaking you would be right....but....welcome to the real world where everything that seems so logical really isnt, or isnt thought to be. Discrimination, although fomally non existent is still widespread among blacks and Native Americans who have fought for it through blood sweat and tears for centuries now. And look where they are...this will be a very, very long battle.[/quote]
Javierdude24: Finally I'm getting around to telling you something that has struck my mine while reading most of your posts. You are a level headed, thoughtful, and passionate individual -- well beyond your age, my friend.
I'll admit you had me worried when, in one of your posts, you stated that Christians believe everything in the Bible is written by God's hand, but, thank God, you let DMW's explanation over rule that somewhat outlandish idea.

Keep telling it like it is, especially concerning taxation and the wide discrepancy between the haves and the have nots. It has been said that as long as there's anyone in the world going to bed hungry there will be wars. Citizens of democracies must show their appreciation for our way of life by being considerate and compassionate for the have nots. You have revealed an example of that, Javier.

Luke
 
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digibacker: [quote author=gigantikok link=board=99;num=1077501486;start=0#15 date=02/25/04 at 00:40:31]Do gay men REALLY care about being married in the conventional sense of the word "marriage"?[/quote]

Actually, it does make a difference on a number of levels. I live in British Columbia and I'm married to another man -- fully and legally. We lived together for six years prior, and everyone thought of us "as" married, but it wasn't quite the same thing. Now that we ARE married, everything feels different. Now it's "real." We're "equal" to everyone else. It's hard to describe but the psychological and emotional differences are enormous.

That's why the arguments for supporting civil unions, but not full marriage, aren't good enough. "Same but different" is never equal.

One tangible difference we noticed too -- when we originally tried applying for a joint credit card a few years ago, I needed to fill out a separate form as if I was a completely independent applicant. Now we only have to fill in one form with the other person listed as "spouse." (Not that it's a big deal, but it's just another little indication that our place in society is accepted rather than tolerated.)
 

lacsap1

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[quote author=digibacker link=board=99;num=1077501486;start=80#91 date=03/28/04 at 21:52:46]

Actually, it does make a difference on a number of levels. I live in British Columbia and I'm married to another man -- fully and legally.[/quote]

Congretulations.....Lucky you live in Canada, as I life in the Netherlands. Problem is, who can does conservative (religous) people including the US president in the US find there peace in this. As an atheist it would and will make me nuts to hear some (not completly) old text about marriage is only for a man and women. Can't they see thinks more differently, modern, liberal and like the church and state seperation.......
 
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Inwood: A slight variation on the topic...

I'll be attending the wedding of some friends this summer at Cherry Grove on Fire Island. They were married last year in Canada but an apartment fire interfered with the US ceremony. So now all that's done and all their family and friends will be attending the shindig out on the beach. Luckily it will be a legal ceremony since they do have a marriage licence recognized by New York State even though it's from Canada.

Who knew weddings could be so ground breaking. Can't wait to kiss the Grooms!
 

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Sadly, the folks in power don't believe in church/state separation. Did you know Indian traditions were illegal until 1978? And then a law specifically repealing laws against them was then challenged as violating the missionaries' religious freedom? I think it's funny, we don't even accept converts, much less seek them out. *sigh*
 
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Inwood: This quote is from an article in the April 21 NY Times about Massachusetts' highest court being asked ot delay gay marriage until it can be voted on in about 2 and 1/2 years.

"It would also place an onerous burden on proponents of traditional marriage" in their fight to pass the admendment, Mr. Doyle said, because they "would be in the invidious position of rolling back gay rights."

Dictionary invidious: Producing resentment or ill feeling, for example, by unfairly slighting somebody.

Mr. Doyle is the executive director of the Catholic Action League of Massachusetts


Well duh.

His problems seems to be having what he's doing labeled as what it actually is. Denying rights that are apparently there in the Massachusetts constitution. Or rather that their constitution doesn't specifically deny that right to the group in question. I guess while he doesn't want to be seen as ROLLING BACK gay rights he has absolutely no problem in actually denying gay rights.
 
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warmsunshine: Update on the Mass. SJC ruling re the Catholic Action League appeal. I love this quote from the judge:
"Why should same-sex couples, who have been determined to have the right to marry under the Massachusetts Constitution as it exists here and now, be required to wait to exercise that right simply because the petitioner and others hope ... to be able to amend the Constitution and take away that right at some point in the future?'' Ireland said in his written ruling.

Also: Virginia ISN'T for (gay) lovers. They actually PASSED this bill filled with lying, hate-filled language in Virginia. Bastards. This part (among others) really gets me:
...and the Massachusetts Supreme Court in Goodrich v. Department of Health, SJC 08860, March 4, 2003-November 18, 2003, failed to consider the beneficial health effects of heterosexual marriage, as contrasted to the life-shortening and health compromising consequences of homosexual behavior, and this to the detriment of all citizens regardless of their sexual orientation or inclination.
 
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mindseye: The Virginia bill is especially offensive, I agree, but in fact, it's so hate-filled that it's almost certain to be found unconstitutional. Among other things, it would (if legal) prevent people from granting power of attorney to someone of the same sex(!)
 

jonb

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The 'health benefits of heterosexual marriage'. I guess they're saying that heteros are less likely to get AIDS. (That's a fairly androcentric view: Lesbians have practically no risk of AIDS.) But then they say that homosexual marriage would by default spread that to the heterosexual population when last I checked the only way to get AIDS is to have sex with someone who has AIDS. Or to share needles with them. Or to get a blood transfusion from them. Or in utero. Or breast milk. Now, if you're sharing needles, it's your own damn fault. And if you were really straight, you wouldn't be having sex with gay men in the first place. Needless to say, gay men won't be giving birth or lactating any time soon, and they're forbidden from giving blood.

Whereas, if "same sex" unions are a civil right, then legal sanctions and coercion will be imposed against persons and institutions opposed to homosexual behavior or same sex unions. For example, schools in their Family Life and other programs will have to teach that "civil unions" or "homosexual marriage" are equivalent to traditional marriage; churches whose teachings does not accept homosexual behavior as moral will lose their tax exempt status; employers will be ineligible for government contracts unless they will hire and provide benefits to the "married homosexuals" and their "spouses" and "partners;" and homosexual groups helped organize a $100,000 law suit against a private religious school which refused to allow a homosexual 17 year old male student permission to bring his homosexual boyfriend to the school prom as his date; and
Translation: We're the only ones who can have special rights. With a bit of a slippery slope for churches and tax-exempt status; even the Church of Jesus Christ Christian/Aryan Nations has tax-exempt status, so I doubt simply not recognizing gay marriages would change this. As for family life classes, these are probably the same people who want to get rid of evolution in biology classes (which is sort of like teaching physics without matter).

Whereas, same sex advocates seek to curb the free speech rights of their opponents, for instance, in Saskatchewan, Canada, the Human Rights Commission has ordered both the Saskatoon Star Phoenix newspaper and Hugh Owens of Regina to pay $1,500 Canadian to three homosexual activists for publishing an ad in the Saskatoon newspaper quoting Bible versus regarding homosexuality; and same sex advocates are intolerant of their opponents, to wit: former Vermont Governor Howard Dean who signed America's first same sex civil union law said in April of 2003, that "Senator Rick Santorum, the third highest ranking Republican in the Senate, compared homosexuality to bigamy, polygamy, incest and adultery...Senator Santorum must step down from his leadership post; and
They forgot rape, pedophilia, and bestiality. Actually, the Bible favors polygamy and rape, says nothing about pedophilia, and has much more lax standards wrt incest (minimum of three degrees, with the exception of uncle/niece) than the law (minimum of three, sometimes four, degrees, except in Southern states which use Biblical standards). I don't know that Canadian story but I'm sure they're blowing it out of proportion and Canadian law has zero to do with the US anyway.

Whereas, because very few homosexuals will "marry" or seek civil unions, the legal effect for homosexual marriage or same sex unions is not primarily about marriage itself, but is directed at weakening the institution of marriage which is foundational to this country's history and tradition; and where heterosexual marriage requires sexual exclusivity, advocates of same sex unions merely prefer sexual exclusivity, but do not demand it. Promoting and defending the common good of society requires that marriage be recognized and defended as a preferential and beneficial complimentary relationship between the sexes for one man, a husband, and one woman, a wife which are necessary conditions for the formation of a family; and
Weakening the institution of marriage? LOL "Oh, we're getting a divorce because Alice and Betty across the street got married." I've never heard of gay-marriage advocates arguing anything less than exclusivity.

Whereas, human marriage is a consummated two in one communion of male and female persons made possible by sexual differences which are reproductive in type, whether or not they are reproductive in effect or motivation. This present relationship recognizes the equality of male and female persons, and antedates recorded history and the writings of revealed religions; consequently, granting legal equivalency status between same sex unions and heterosexual marriage would result in the state's failure to defend marriage as an institution essential to the common good; and
Um, is that a teleological argument I hear? And then they try to exclude sterile heterosexuals from the list. In many societies, there are more than two genders, so it doesn't 'antedate recorded history and the writings of revealed religions'.

Whereas, there is a profound moral and legal difference between private behavior conducted outside the sanction or eyes of the law as it were, and granting such behavior a legal institutional status in society. Such a radical change would require and set in motion as yet unforeseen legal and social consequences which would rely upon the coercive power of the state for their implementation. The structures of civil law constitute a very important and sometimes decisive role in influencing and sanctioning patterns of thought and behavior. Such structures are especially influential on younger citizens' views and evaluation of forms of conduct; and
Translation: Thought crime.

Whereas, providing for same sex unions would obscure certain basic moral values and further devalue the institution of marriage and the status of children; children need not just parents, but a mother and a father, and to deprive children of a mother and a father is harmful to their development; and
If you want to save the institution of marriage, sue Fox. I mean, Temptation Island? Who Wants to Marry a Multi-millionaire?

Whereas, defining marriage or civil unions as permissible for same sex individuals as simply an alternate form of "marriage" will radically transform the institution of marriage with serious and harmful consequences to the social order. Same sex civil unions are simply marriages by a different name. Columnist George Will reports (Dec. 7., 2003) that Governor "Dean said that in terms of legal rights there is no practical difference between same-sex civil unions and marriages. Matthews: ``So why are we quibbling over a name?'' Dean: ``Because marriage is very important to a lot of people who are pretty religious.'' Neither status is needed for the exercise or enjoyment of civil rights by citizens with same sex attractions; and
Actually, there are 1138 federal laws which make reference to marriage. If I were married, my wife would be allowed hospital visits. But if I were gay, my gay lover wouldn't. If I were married, my wife would have medical insurance on the company dime. If I were gay, my gay lover would not. This does have its side effect: A man can employ his gay lover, but not his wife. Of course, all the same rules about said gay lover also apply to heterosexual unmarried couples.

Whereas, persons who wish to dispose of their property or assign the power of attorney to another person in case they are sick or disabled are legally authorized to do so at present without regard to any legal impediment or qualification regarding their sexual orientation. The rights of the franchise, property ownership, travel and other such rights are not conditioned the sexual orientation of individuals. Because such private "goods" can now be secured, without legally recognizing same sex unions, it is unnecessary, unjust and socially disruptive to provide for legal recognition of same sex unions to achieve such goals. A prominent same sex marriage advocate speaks of "an openness of the contract" for marriage between homosexuals and claims that such a legal union would be more durable than heterosexual marriage because the contract contains an "understanding of the need for extramarital outlets." No such understanding exists in law for married heterosexuals. No one is legally denied the opportunity to marry because of their preference for one or more of the more than 20 different "sexual orientations;" now, therefore
I have never heard of gay-marriage advocates advocating threesomes. And the rest of that just proves American law is based on property.
 

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Gee, if I get to marry my partner of 8 years...can I marry the dog next!?!?!? Oh good grief. I do think we need to make a distinction between "marriage" and "civil union"...one is based in religion and I don't recall having any of "my community" talking about forcing church's to perform marriages against their specific doctrine...the other is about basic human and legal rights. You would not believe the hoops and legal expense it required for my partner and I to protect our real estate, money, medical provisions and inheritance should one of us become ill or die. Our being afforded those equal rights will destroy the sanctity of marriage....how???????