Racism

[nudeyorker]

I honestly wouldn't be too offended by that. It's apparent that the old lady didn't mean that to be mean, even if the selection of words wasn't the best.

I call my god daughter the same thing when I see her... and I'm not old ( or at least that old)

 

[midlifebear]

I'm with VB. However, if she had said, "Aren't you a cute little Sambo?" I would have called her out for being an ignorant bitch with cat food for brains . . . for starters.

 

[surferboy]

I honestly wouldn't be too offended by that. It's apparent that the old lady didn't mean that to be mean, even if the selection of words wasn't the best.

i full on agree. i don't think she meant any harm by it. but holy fuck did she choose the wrong words

 

[joybunny]

I honestly wouldn't be too offended by that. It's apparent that the old lady didn't mean that to be mean, even if the selection of words wasn't the best.

I agree but this issue isn't what she said but how it is received. "Monkey" is an old derogatory term used to describe Americans of African descent. Whatever intent she had, doesn't matter. To many, the term is offensive and reflected a certain level of insensitivity on her part.

In addition, being that she grew up in the era of segregation I doubt that she wasn't aware. Not saying that she meant it as a put down but it was a common racial slur to describe blacks. Historically, black children were not referred baby, or child like white children (Especially in the South). This is because blacks were seen and treated like subhumans. Made it easier to continue inhumane practices and wide spread abuse.

 

[joybunny]

I call my god daughter the same thing when I see her... and I'm not old ( or at least that old)

Once again, it's depend on how the person who hears it feels. Just like the "c" word, some wouldn't think anything of it while others would be shocked and/or highly offended.

 

[nudeyorker]

Once again, it's depend on how the person who hears it feels. Just like the "c" word, some wouldn't think anything of it while others would be shocked and/or highly offended.

Well I think there is more than a slight difference especially in this case... This child has grown into a beautiful young woman, but I used to read Maurice Sendak to her as a child, and she told me when she was three that she was a monkey!

 

[Sergeant_Torpedo]

Sadly racism exists, but in a very complex and convoluted form, it is innate (in Europe race refered to family until a century ago) but the economic component is elusive. Do you think an African or Chinese rich businessman is any the less prejudiced against other ethnic groups. The arguement is devisive and misleading.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

I agree but this issue isn't what she said but how it is received. "Monkey" is an old derogatory term used to describe Americans of African descent. Whatever intent she had, doesn't matter. To many, the term is offensive and reflected a certain level of insensitivity on her part.

In addition, being that she grew up in the era of segregation I doubt that she wasn't aware. Not saying that she meant it as a put down but it was a common racial slur to describe blacks. Historically, black children were not referred baby, or child like white children (Especially in the South). This is because blacks were seen and treated like subhumans. Made it easier to continue inhumane practices and wide spread abuse.

I'm very much aware of the derogatory use of the term.
However, we can't expect every single person to express themselves with the same level of sophistication. Even I refer to my younger nieces and nephews as little monkeys, little monsters or any other silly, playful nickname I can think of to convey the message that I'm playing with them.

Considering the circumstances, I can see that the elderly woman was just being nice. And although she chose a rather questionable word, she didn't use something really offensive such as Sambo (like MLB mentioned) or worse, the N-word. IMHO, intent really does matter in this case despite the way the word was used by some insensitive people. Because I'm certainly not going to stop calling my little three year old nephew a "little monkey" anytime soon. Plus, he knows he isn't one. :wink:

 

[joybunny]

I'm very much aware of the derogatory use of the term.
However, we can't expect every single person to express themselves with the same level of sophistication. Even I refer to my younger nieces and nephews as little monkeys, little monsters or any other silly, playful nickname I can think of to convey the message that I'm playing with them.

Considering the circumstances, I can see that the elderly woman was just being nice. And although she chose a rather questionable word, she didn't use something really offensive such as Sambo (like MLB mentioned) or worse, the N-word. IMHO, intent really does matter in this case despite the way the word was used by some insensitive people. Because I'm certainly not going to stop calling my little three year old nephew a "little monkey" anytime soon. Plus, he knows he isn't one. :wink:

Good point but in my region the term monkey is as bad and even worse calling someone sambo and maybe just as bad as the N word. I understand that what you call your nephew is out of love. Comparably blacks who defend the use of the n-word said the same however there's still a nationwide call for the word to stop being used.

Personally I was raised to not call my friends and family sambo, monkey, or the n-word because of their double meaning and potential to be used in the wrong place and/or the wrong time. Doesn't mean that one word is worse than the other because that would depend on the person, the time, and the situation.

In this case the father may not have said anything for a number of reasons. However, what she said was peceived by at least one person as questionable.

 

[b.c.]

Comedians, in certain ways, are some of the best people to speak on the subject of race. For starters, they can touch on the volatile subject in a way where people are more accepting to criticism. They also can point out the absurdity fueling many racist sentiments by turning it into a joke. With the exception of poetry, stand up comedy is probably one of the purest and most honest forms of expression left in our society today. Which is not to say that either one of the art forms can't be manipulated to push an agenda, but if someone wanted to go on stage and talk about how weird they are they can... and it's accepted. There's no spelling and/or grammatical checks. No extra points if you use more decorative synonyms instead of the simplistic form of a word. You're free to use whatever language you want to convey your feelings, as long as it doesn't become too much of a personal attack and more of a delicate nudge into ideologies that people may be uncomfortable with. Plus, laughter breaks down the invisible walls that exist between people faster than any other emotion out there. What better way to feel as if you're not alone than to find someone, from a completely different walk of life, laughing at the same exact thing you are? Finally... someone that gets what you're feeling at that precise moment.

Many of the open forums that try to promote an "honest discussion" about race get caught up in trying to force people to adhere to an ethical standard of decency. The concept of decency will differ from person to person anyhow, so you're already working at a disadvantage. It also alienates those who may not be able to articulate their views as eloquently as the next person. When people are too worried about looking intelligent, it prevents some people from being truly honest about their feelings. The motives behind such things are great, but the execution tends to be lacking.

Tru dat. There's a lot of "painful realities" in the messages of comedians. And those who are (or were) at the cutting edge of ironic observation (Pryor, Rock, Lopez) are the best at what they do: make us laugh at that which grieves us so.

What I (personally) get from Hickboy's analogy is that one should consider the degree to which the racism/prejudice/bigotry can cause harm (to its intended party).

Seems to me that though bigoted people exist among minorities, the sentiment is usually a kind of knee-jerk response of an individual or a group of individuals who feel themselves in a defensive (if not disadvantageous) position within a larger society.

Perhaps he suggests the effect of such bigotry (on the part of minorities) have less effect not only because of the diminished capacity to cause harm but also because of those extenuating circumstances (personal experiences, our society as a whole, and even historical references) that may cause some members of a minority group act in such a manner.

None of which is intended to minimize any equally offensive transgression or legitimize bigotry on the part of anyone, mind you. But at the least we should understand the causes.

 

[rob_just_rob]

Political and economic power comes in varying sizes. If the individual who runs the business you work at happens to be black/asian/aboriginal and prefers to promote others of his or her ethnic group, you're SOL if you're from a different ethnic group. Doesn't matter if your own ethnic group is otherwise predominant in society.

 

[joybunny]

Well I think there is more than a slight difference especially in this case... This child has grown into a beautiful young woman, but I used to read Maurice Sendak to her as a child, and she told me when she was three that she was a monkey!

True. Your relationship and the word was used to create and maintain a bond. However, someone else can do the same to break and destroy. That's the funny thing about racism. It's so insidious that it can turn a beautiful thing ugly with just one word.

 

[Gillette]

*Disclaimer. I am going to be using the "n word" in this post. I will be using it only in context and not calling anybody one in earnest or in jest. If this offends I would ask that you not read further. If it is a problem by the ToS I offer my apologies to the mods in advance and ask that the word where it appears be edited to "n".

To me, based on my own experiences, racism equates to prejudices + the political/economic power to act upon those prejudices.

Racism is prejudging someone based on race. Period.
The addition of the political/economic power to act upon those prejudices makes it racial oppression.

Black people, in the USA, in 2010, are not capable of being racist.

Your president is black. You don't think he has any political or economic clout? There are many black business owners who could, if they were so inclined, refuse to employ someone because they were white. By saying blacks are incapable of racial oppression you are saying that all black people are powerless in relation to whites. Frankly I find that assumption much more offensive than being called a nigger.

There is no person or group of people of color who can block me from having easier access to money, government services, education, or anything else.

Anyone of any colour at any time can choose to file your application/vote/file/claim in the waste basket if they so chose for any reason. I think what you meant was that they are not legally able to do so. It is equally illegal to do so with blacks.

I have privileges that are granted to me automatically as a result of my status as a white person, privileges that are still difficult for a black, especially a black woman, to obtain.

Like what? Did you miss an era? With equal opportunity hiring quotas a black woman with equivalent education and experience may be MORE likely to get a job than a white man.

What Principessa purportedly said was not racist.

Yes, it was. The selection of that slur was predicated on his colour.
That is racist.

*edit
Purportedly said? Her post is right there in black and white.

It might have been an indication of bigotry. Calling a white person a 'cracker' is a mild racial epithet, but mere use of bigoted language does not make a person a bigot. Bigotry is not racism is not prejudice. They're three different things. It's sloppy and imprecise to attempt to use all three terms to mean the same thing. They are not interchangeable.

I'm amused that you can acknowledge that it is a racial epithet while denying it being racism. Very odd.

Main Entry: big·ot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

Racism is a form of bigotry.
All bigotry is prejudice.



Slightly off topic from the other thread. It was said that there is no equivalent insult for whites that had as much sting as the n word does for blacks. In a sense, that's true. What we have is much more damaging.

Call a black person "nigger" and you may offend them but you only damage yourself in the eyes of those witness to it. They won't lose their job for having received the insult, no one of their friends/family/community will distance themselves from the sudden realization that they're black. *Gasp* "We never knew!"

On the other hand if a black person calls you "racist" the effect is solely to you. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, you're tainted. If a black person said it then the automatic assumption is that you must have done something racist to deserve it. Try to deny it or prove otherwise and you just dig yourself deeper. "He doth protest too much."

This one word causes a sudden mobilization that not even "Fire!" can accomplish. Panic ensues, arms all aflutter. Friends and your community may distance themselves as though you'd just made the top of Megan's List. You can be "let go" from your job simply to avoid the association. You could even receive death threats from violent hotheads who know nothing of the situation but believe the accusations anyway.

I was arguing with royal dipshit once and after losing my cool told him to kiss my ass. He said disparagingly that he didn't like dark skin. My return snipe was, "Oh, so you're a racist, too". His instant response was that of terror. He went pale(r?), his eyes darted about to see if anyone had heard me, his shoulders pulled in protectively and he extricated himself from the situation immediately.

While I was pleased with the effect (his absence) I was shocked by the effectiveness. Trust me when I say that black people have power. Trust me also when I say there are some perfectly willing to abuse it and often.

But wait, I'm Canadian. Not being an American means I have no frame of reference, no concept of the history, no experience of continuing racism today. Quaint, peaceful Nova Scotia was the refuge at the end of the underground railroad, land of milk and honey for runaway slaves, no racial tension there. Wrong. I have been teased and insulted growing up, I've been followed closely around stores, I've wondered if the newspaper photographer who staged the picture of me eating a slice of watermelon at camp was just getting me to illustrate summer fun or something more sinister, I'm pretty sure (but not dead certain) that I've lost out on promotions because of my skin tone, and even in this day and age (three days ago in fact) we had this.
CBC News - Nova Scotia - N.S. couple shaken by cross burning

I'm perfectly aware of racism as it was and is. I'm just not fuckwit enough to think it only comes in one colour.

 

[B_jeepguy2]

Yes, again. My concern is not only about those from a position of power who feed off prejudice, but also those from the "minority" who promote division. Would you say that Jesse Jackson crossed that line from time to time as suited his own political career?

We have an election coming in the UK. Our "socialist" party leader, G Brown (current Prime Minister) is trying to ignite old class war issues. This is deeply offensive to me.

What happenedto the Fox hunting dispute in the UK? Wasn't that basicly a class war thing?

 

[D_Kaye Throttlebottom]

Generalizing behavior by "race" fits.

 

[B_starinvestor]

What I find most annoying are the LPSG-ers who have been previously been banned for racist/politically incorrect remarks and then allowed to return and then allowed to write "around" the reality that they are racist without using an outright racist remark. Still, they are allowed to cast topic threads and posts in such a way that it's obvious they are race baiting. Amusing double standard.

:fuckyou2:

 

[helgaleena]

I'm more interested in your ability to think and present a coherent argument than I am in your ability to cut and paste items you've lifted out of context from other web sites. Or do you just not have any ideas of your own?

Xcuse put forth an idea of his own and got stomped! :bigeyes2:

I am seeing three main ingredients in the miscommunications that lead to offensive use of epithets.
1- stereotypes in the speaker's worldview that color their view of the audience, 'the help' getting 'above stairs' by 'earning promotion under the duvet' and whether these are the economic reality has nothing to do with their lack of applicability to the free human spirit in each of us

2- intent to offend may or may not be present-- 'cute little monkey' perfectly fine for a white child to whom you are related fx, but not to a browner child than yourself

3- when intent to offend is present, and offense is not taken, did a tree fall in the forest? I think it did, but it simply didn't crush any cute furry animals that time.

Discrimination and categorizing are necessary to clear thinking, but they ossify into bias and bigotry if overgrown. Egos of others can be pricked and shredded!

One of the hard ones I work to overcome is a bias against 'stupid' people. I am not the very brightest crayon on the internet, the way I was in my sheltered youth, flattered by one parent and slammed by the other, so retreating into fantasies of my own brilliance. Lots of folk with merely average intelligence may actually deserve to live and procreate. Humpf.

 

[naughty]

This is a case of why any reference to being anything other than human might be suspect...a voice from the past....


July 26,1922 " ... O' yes, we have black babies too, as you can see by this picture. These two happen to be just a couple of my special 'pets.' I just close my eyes & gasp every time one of them tries to put their arms around my neck. Still they are human & only babies after all & one can'...t help loving them. " Wade Day Nursery 2322 E. 22nd Street

 

[tripod]

But wait, I'm Canadian. Not being an American means I have no frame of reference, no concept of the history, no experience of continuing racism today. Quaint, peaceful Nova Scotia was the refuge at the end of the underground railroad, land of milk and honey for runaway slaves, no racial tension there. Wrong. I have been teased and insulted growing up, I've been followed closely around stores, I've wondered if the newspaper photographer who staged the picture of me eating a slice of watermelon at camp was just getting me to illustrate summer fun or something more sinister, I'm pretty sure (but not dead certain) that I've lost out on promotions because of my skin tone, and even in this day and age (three days ago in fact).

So, you are black?

I don't believe it, I think that you like using the "n word" and you being black is just a smokescreen against being accused of being racist on this board for your ease in using the "n word".

Prove me wrong and post a pic.

 

[rob_just_rob]

So, you are black?

I don't believe it, I think that you like using the "n word" and you being black is just a smokescreen against being accused of being racist on this board for your ease in using the "n word".

Prove me wrong and post a pic.

You're wrong.