Save Windows XP!

[B_Think_Kink]

never mind.. clicked the real link

 

[B_Nick8]

Thanks, nj!

 

[vince]

BTW, any suggestions on laptops that can accommodate my graphics needs are most welcome.

For me, working with CAD programs, I want a big screen, a fast graphics card and a full numeric keypad. Having the keypad makes things so much easier. I plan on going for the Dell XPS M1730, so the next time I'm up north I'll buy one. They sell an XP version as well.
Negatives are- it is heavy at 4.8kg and a bit pricey for 2500$ and it has a glossy screen (I hate those screens but it seems all the manufacturers are using them)

 

[transformer_99]

XP=Vista, the two are the same. MS never got their new format to work, so all they did was add eye candy and bloat Vista to seem new. During the Vista beta, older hardware was supported MS even had drivers that worked, so the guinea pigs could help in the development phase. Later, when Vista was officially introduced, those drivers were excluded. So as people get newer hardware, it goes thru the same driver development that Windows 3.1, 95, 97, ME, NT, 2000, 2003 versions did. It's a perpetuating cycle. To me, having Vista cofigurable and installable in "classic XP" mode means XP is expendable for newer systems. If you're still running 6 year old hardware, Linux is still there for you, but even the eye candy for older graphics cards is being pushed by the wayside. Same issue as Windows, just not 95% of the market yelling collectively about it. Linux still runs in it's own classic mode too, so older hardware can run it, but the minimum memory requirements and processor power is raising the bar on what computers will run it too.

Anyway, I think MS is putting out Windows Server 2008 and that even effects corporate servers that have server 2000 or 2003.

 

[Principessa]

In the defense of Vista...

1. The OEM installations done by HP/Compaq/DELL/Gateway etc... is generally corrupt and unusable.

2. None of the OEM installs contain the correct drivers for Vista.

3. Vista is configurable to look exactly like windows XP with near identical functionality.

4. Despite many OEM's feebile attempt at building VISTA compatable machines, 1GB of ram won't cut it. Bump your memory to 2GB of ram for Vista to run properly.

5. System Bandwidth for Vista is Critical. a 400 or 533mhz Front side bus is going to CHOKE with vista. Even 800mhz front side bus machines are going to have difficulty. You need to look for machines with a 1066 or 1333mhz FSB (Front side bus) for Vista to work freely.

'Scuse me!?! Bandwith, mhz do you seriously expect the average consumer to know or even remember all that crap? IMHO the Manufacturer should be shot for selling a PC or laptop that can't handle the recommended OS.

Think about it....the average consumer is just going to go in and buy a computer with fancy features, lights, googly shit and they take it home.

Then they bitch about how bad Vista is when it's the OEM's conglomoration they mismatched to sell cheap.

Okay, I'll bite...wtf is an OEM?

I've gotten many Vista boxes across my bench, and the first thing I do is WIPE THEM CLEAN and do a Fresh Clean install of Windows Vista, followed by updates and antivirus protection.

Wonderful, just wonderful and how much is it costing the average consumer to have you do something that I am guessing takes almost as long as an oil change?

In short and quoted from my one Microsoft buddy - "Vista is just a Hollywood Special Effects Version of XP". It takes more memory and triple the clicks to do the same thing.

Well then that's not exactly user friendly is it? I thought the idea was that computers would get easier to use not more difficult. :12: Hell, at this rate they'll be bringing back the old keypunch machines, cause those were so convenient to use.

Vista SP1 is supposed to change all of that.

When will this little ray of sunshine arrive?

Oh... and if your printer doesnt work...then you need to DOWNLOAD NEW DRIVERS from your Manufacturer.

Fucking A! Why didn't you tell me that in June when I was cursing a blue streak about how the brand new Compaq PC my mother bought came with an HP printer that wouldn't work with it? I eventually realized that it worked fine with my HP PC but never made the connection that it was an XP vs. Vista issue. :redface:

I still say if you have to do all the stuff you mentioned to make it work out of the box it's a shit product. I also agree with previous posters who said a new OS every year is unnecessary.

In days of yore (ie the early 1970's) Mercedes Benz was known for changing the design of their vehicles every 7 years. They have since thrown that concept out the window. But I think Bill Gates should pick it up.

 

[No_Strings]

I'll try and post in laymans' terms. :smile:

'Scuse me!?! Bandwith, mhz do you seriously expect the average consumer to know or even remember all that crap?

The average consumer should know at least the very basics of PC specifications, that being processor speed(measured in Ghz), RAM size(measured in Gb) and hard drive size(also measured in Gb), plus any peripherals that are being bought.

In general, with measurements such as speed(Ghz/Mhz is a 'speed'), size(Gb/Mb is a 'size'), bandwidth, a higher number is better.
In general, with measurements such as latency, delay, response time, a lower number is better.

If the processor of a PC is the brain, then the FSB would kinda be the spinal cord. As above, a higher speed and larger bandwidth is a good thing.

Bandwidth is exactly what it sounds like: trying to push too many things through a narrow pipe results in choking - similar concept with electronics.

IMHO the Manufacturer should be shot for selling a PC or laptop that can't handle the recommended OS.

Business is business and, unfortunately, manufacturers are well aware of that. :frown1:

Okay, I'll bite...wtf is an OEM?

Original Equipment Manufacturer.

For example, when I built my last PC, I bought the soundcard for it OEM. Rather than buy it retail so it comes in the box, with the manual, cables, remote control and whatever else it would come with off the shelf, I bought it OEM from an internet stockist and received nothing more than the actual soundcard itself. For half the price. :smile:

Wonderful, just wonderful and how much is it costing the average consumer to have you do something that I am guessing takes almost as long as an oil change?

If I knew what it took to change oil, I would tell you! :tongue::22:

When will this little ray of sunshine arrive?

*looks at calendar*

I believe you can get it right now? (Don't quote me on that, I don't use Vista... yet.)

Fucking A! Why didn't you tell me that in June when I was cursing a blue streak about how the brand new Compaq PC my mother bought came with an HP printer that wouldn't work with it? I eventually realized that it worked fine with my HP PC but never made the connection that it was an XP vs. Vista issue. :redface:

Personally, I'd blame HP for that. :biggrin1:

I still say if you have to do all the stuff you mentioned to make it work out of the box it's a shit product.

Yep. You're right.
I strongly recommend people to never buy a PC off the shelf in a store. Buy it online, buy the actual PC and peripherals(monitor, mouse, keyboard etc.) seperately, get a friend to buy/build one for you. It'll cost 50%-67% of the price, will come with whichever OS you want, and shouldn't have compatibility problems as everything on it has been put on by the user.

It's funny, in the UK 'PC World' strongly advertised and emphasied Intel processors in their products, during which time AMD were generally the top dog. Now recently Intel's new lines have overtaken AMD(for the moment...) and PC World are trying to sound revolutionary by now using AMD processors in their PCs rather than Intel.

But like you said, what does the average or informed consumer know? Business is business.

 

[transformer_99]

Personally, I'd blame HP for that. :biggrin1:

Not me, there's enough blame for both of them ! HP needs to support their hardware/products and MS needs to be there with them making sure what is needed to run Vista and HP hardware are compatible for those that upgrade.

 

[e_a_s_t]

save yourself the headache and switch to mac os x

 

[dong20]

XP=Vista, the two are the same. MS never got their new format to work, so all they did was add eye candy and bloat Vista to seem new. During the Vista beta, older hardware was supported MS even had drivers that worked, so the guinea pigs could help in the development phase. Later, when Vista was officially introduced, those drivers were excluded. So as people get newer hardware, it goes thru the same driver development that Windows 3.1, 95, 97, ME, NT, 2000, 2003 versions did. It's a perpetuating cycle. To me, having Vista cofigurable and installable in "classic XP" mode means XP is expendable for newer systems.

Vista=XP? Where do you get this from? Vista<>XP. Not even close, it's a mostly new codebase. Citations please.

Back in 2001 when Longhorn was mooted it was to be based on the windows 2003 codebase and indeed I believe some very early ports were based on XP. XP and Windows 2003 have different codebases.

BTW, Windows 'classic' (XP classic looks like Windows 2000) is merely a reduced eye candy 'shell' to improve performance, it's not the old XP underneath even if it resembles it. Windows 2003 server has the same faclity, are you suggesting that's really XP too?

The beta drivers were mostly just that, beta drivers. Driver support for Vista out of the gate was woeful, but the blame for that cannot be laid fairly at any one element.

Anyway, I think MS is putting out Windows Server 2008 and that even effects corporate servers that have server 2000 or 2003.

What does that even mean?

'Scuse me!?! Bandwith, mhz do you seriously expect the average consumer to know or even remember all that crap? IMHO the Manufacturer should be shot for selling a PC or laptop that can't handle the recommended OS.

You shouldn't need to. In the same way you don't need to know how a car works in order to drive it. You only need to know how to drive it.

Okay, I'll bite...wtf is an OEM?

OEM= Original Equipment Manufacturer (the peeps who make or assemble the PC and its components). I think NS covered this, sorry.

Well then that's not exactly user friendly is it? I thought the idea was that computers would get easier to use not more difficult. :12: Hell, at this rate they'll be bringing back the old keypunch machines, cause those were so convenient to use.

Sales people count on ignorance to upsell.

When will this little ray of sunshine arrive?

It already has.

Fucking A! Why didn't you tell me that in June when I was cursing a blue streak about how the brand new Compaq PC my mother bought came with an HP printer that wouldn't work with it? I eventually realized that it worked fine with my HP PC but never made the connection that it was an XPvs. Vista issue. :redface:

Frustrating isn't it?

I still say if you have to do all the stuff you mentioned to make it work out of the box it's a shit product. I also agree with previous posters who said a new OS every year is unnecessary.

I'd largely agree with that.

In days of yore (ie the early 1970's) Mercedes Benz was known for changing the design of their vehicles every 7 years. They have since thrown that concept out the window. But I think Bill Gates should pick it up.

Yes, now they just change the model number and jack up the price, while dropping the build quality.

It's my opinion that PCs/OS' and much software is loaded down with a plethora of features that most users don't need, will never use or don't even know are there. The reasons are many and varied but mostly relate to maintaining the market.

New and Shiny sells, even if you don't need it, which probably, you don't.

 

[NIMBUS]

Can't say that I've ever really liked XP. 2K Pro was the best OS that they ever rolled out, XP is just another step into being nannied by Microsoft. God help us if Vista is even worse.

 

[dong20]

Can't say that I've ever really liked XP. 2K Pro was the best OS that they ever rolled out, XP is just another step into being nannied by Microsoft. God help us if Vista is even worse.

I mostly agree, W2k was damn stable. But I'd argue XP is more usable and (post SP2), almost as stable.

 

[lamplight]

Well... On the other hand, XP is getting to be pretty old, unsecured and susceptible to attacks from hackers. For a company this can't be good. And secondly, the IT business moves FAST. So you ether get on and accept that, or get off. It's not like a used Honda you can work over every now and then and keep it for 15 years.

That being said, Vista is just awful and a blatant copy of Mac OS. They've tried to get the similar functions and look of Tiger, but it's just plain fucking awful.

I say, make a stand here and switch to Linux or Apple. Microsoft shouldn't be allowed to make suck crap software and still make money. Let the revolution begin!

 

[dong20]

Well... On the other hand, XP is getting to be pretty old, unsecured and susceptible to attacks from hackers. For a company this can't be good.

I believe you have that rather backwards. In general, during its lifespan the older an OS gets, the more secure it becomes because its flaws are found, exploited, publicised then fixed. A new OS is untested (in the real world) and thus inherently more vulnerable.

And secondly, the IT business moves FAST. So you ether get on and accept that, or get off. It's not like a used Honda you can work over every now and then and keep it for 15 years.

Technology does move fast, faster than most people need it to. If XP did what you needed it to 5 years ago, and may still do so 5 years from now, why would you change it unless there was an actual need to do so. Especially if in your particular usage, all you're effectively getting is a lick of paint.

 

[lamplight]

I believe you have that rather backwards. In general, during its lifespan the older an OS gets, the more secure it becomes because its flaws are found, exploited, publicised then fixed. A new OS is untested (in the real world) and thus inherently more vulnerable.

Here I have to disagree.. There are about 16.000 worms that can knock out XP if you only make a slight alteration to it. The way has been paved, no matter how good the new updates are. Why do you think there are so few viruses out there for Linux? I guess if the new system is a swiss cheese, like Vista, you do have big problems.

Technology does move fast, faster than most people need it to. If XP did what you needed it to 5 years ago, and may still do so 5 years from now, why would you change it unless there was an actual need to do so. Especially if in your particular usage, all you're effectively getting is a lick of paint.

Again, one has to think of the overall concern. Globally. Technology needs to keep evolving for many reasons. To keep the net running smoothly, to fight global warming, to generally fix problems. It's a bit like taxes - feels like a bitch if you look at it from a single persons perspective, but in the end it serves a bigger purpose. I guess it's a matter of perspective.

 

[dong20]

Here I have to disagree.. There are about 16.000 worms that can knock out XP if you only make a slight alteration to it. The way has been paved, no matter how good the new updates are. Why do you think there are so few viruses out there for Linux? I guess if the new system is a swiss cheese, like Vista, you do have big problems.

It's OK it's allowed.

I'd say your very argument applies to Vista, even more so because those holes are are yet largely unknown as are the potential agents to exploit them. The reason for the relative lack of Virus' for Linux/Mac is rather less to do with any inherently better security and immunity that it is to do with market share and an endemic hatred of Microsoft. Why target (comparatively) nice few Mac/Linux users when hitting XP/Windows 2000/3 will affect millions.

Also, people tend not to crap in their own back yard, right?

Again, one has to think of the overall concern. Globally. Technology needs to keep evolving for many reasons. To keep the net running smoothly, to fight global warming, to generally fix problems. It's a bit like taxes - feels like a bitch if you look at it from a single persons perspective, but in the end it serves a bigger purpose. I guess it's a matter of perspective.

Technology is self serving, I agree. I like the latest doodad as much as anyone, but I also have to question if doodad v2 is really worth the upgrade from doodad v1 when I barely use 20% of doodad v1's features. I like the global warming reference ... :smile:

 

[ladsonbehr49]

I have vista and I dont have any problems with maybe because I had dell add the most memory they could cram in their. xp is good but time to move on though..

 

[B_ScaredLittleBoy]

No one targets Linux with viruses because (in the general perception) no one uses Linux.

Also: HP are shit. I bought a HP PC (£300 just the tower) which was supposed to come with 512MB RAM and a 120GB HD. 70GB HD and only 256 RAM.

I also got a corrupt hive error at every other boot. I've formatted it and spent at least another £200 on it and I still have problems with it, although infrequently and non critical.

 

[dong20]

Also: HP are shit. I bought a HP PC (£300 just the tower) which was supposed to come with 512MB RAM and a 120GB HD. 70GB HD and only 256 RAM.

I have to disagree, at least based on my, personal experience. Over the years I have commissioned and been responsible for thousands (over 10,000), units. They have their issues, as does any manufacturer but I've found them to be a notch above the average in terms of image stability and build quality consistency. Your mileage may differ.

If your PC wasn't as described your argument probably lies with the seller, not HP. If you think HP deliberatively aim to mis-sell to customers in the retail market, that's not the case. Was it new or used, did you buy it from HP direct or from an HP reseller, or on Ebay?

I also got a corrupt hive error at every other boot. I've formatted it and spent at least another £200 on it and I still have problems with it, although infrequently and non critical.

If you get infrequent, non critical errors how exactly is that a cause for damning any PC, regardless of its manufacturer?

 

[Ethyl]

For me, working with CAD programs, I want a big screen, a fast graphics card and a full numeric keypad. Having the keypad makes things so much easier. I plan on going for the Dell XPS M1730, so the next time I'm up north I'll buy one. They sell an XP version as well.
Negatives are- it is heavy at 4.8kg and a bit pricey for 2500$ and it has a glossy screen (I hate those screens but it seems all the manufacturers are using them)

I don't care if it's heavy as long as it has what I need and i'm prepared for a deep dent in my wallet. What I don't understand is why I get conflicting advice about Macs. Every other person tells me to get a Mac because it's been the standard for all things graphic but I have a friend who uses Photoshop Lightroom which she says is not really Mac compatible. If Mac can't handle that program, I don't see how it could handle CAD or other 3D software.

Thanks for the tip. All the features you mentioned are what i'm looking for so that's helpful.

 

[EagleCowboy]

I don't care what anyone says. I know better. I am using the proof!!
I run Linux Fedora Core 8.

*Linux is *FREE*. (Can ya beat that??)
*Linux is the ONLY true multitasking OS available.
*The first rule of Linux is that all programs MUST play nice. PERIOD.
*Instead of a small room full of engineers building and tweaking an OS when they get around to it, Linux can be tweaked and improved by ANYBODY at any time.
*Mac and M$ won't give you the source code to improve/make your own programs--the source code for Linux is ALWAYS available. They just ask that you share your improved tweaks with the world.
*Did I mention that all versions of Linux is *FREE*??
*The graphics capabilities in Linux has Mac beat all to hell and back!!
*Linux comes with wonderful programs that Mac and M$ charge you big bucks for.

And that's just for starters.