The S.S.
- Thread starter KinkGuy
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2004
- Posts
- 5,830
- Media
- 0
- Likes
- 2,616
- Points
- 333
- Location
- Memphis (Tennessee, United States)
- Gender
- Male
For a long time I would have agreed with the above statement that both parties represented equally valid viewpoints, even if they differed significantly from my own, What scares me are: violations of the Geneva convention and basic human decency being committed in the name of the US, unprovoked invasions that endanger our citizenry and national financial wellbeing, and telling me that a god I don't believe in will help us win a war against an enemy we haven't effectively attacked in two invasions (note: the terrorists are mobile enough to leave when they hear the planes coming, the citizens get fucked. If you don't believe me, then tell me who would be the first one out of your town in a war, you with the job, family and mortgage, or the kinda crazy guy who hangs out on the streetcorner yelling at strangers about Jesus?).
Personally, I think all the Ammendments are important, but the 2nd needs some tweaking. Everyone should bear arms except religious fanatics. I don't care if you are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist whether your name is Osama, Sharon, or W. If you believe that you can kill in the name of your god, then you ought to be kept away from firearms and sharp objects.
In tough times dissidence is patriotism.
[post=279499]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]I am a devout Christian and I agree with you. If you study the words of Jesus, the founder of Christianity, there are no commands to kill for any reason. Jesus said that if someone strikes you to turn the other check. That doesn't mean that there haven't been "Chrsitians" who haven't done what you say, but they can't quote Jesus telling them to do that. At least not anything I have found that he said.
No, people killing in the name of religion is simply wrong period. And no, religious zealots don't need to have guns in their possession.
Religion is a personal choice. Not something to force on anyone for any reason.
Most of the wars in history, with a few exceptions, WERE religious wars.
Crusades, The Dark Ages for example.
And anyway, what's the Bible got to do with it when God speaks to you and tells you to invade a sovereign nation and kill thousands upon thousands?
After all, the shrub himself defined it, in a speech as a "crusade."
The inmates REALLY ARE running the asylum.
Crusades, The Dark Ages for example.
And anyway, what's the Bible got to do with it when God speaks to you and tells you to invade a sovereign nation and kill thousands upon thousands?
After all, the shrub himself defined it, in a speech as a "crusade."
The inmates REALLY ARE running the asylum.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2004
- Posts
- 5,830
- Media
- 0
- Likes
- 2,616
- Points
- 333
- Location
- Memphis (Tennessee, United States)
- Gender
- Male
i have to differ with you. Most wars are fought on economics. Religion is used to get the masses stirred up. Look what Bush has successfully done with the religious fundies. I doubt Bush gives a flip about God himself. The Crusades weren't really about religion as much as an effort to control trade. But they got a lot of the common folk and local noblemen stirred up to do their bidding based on religion. The best and the worst is found in religion. Nothing better than a true person of God that is loving, kind, genuine, giving. Nothing is worst then a religious fanatic, fake, full of hatred for other religions, takers.
I know that the Bible does have some passages in the Old Testament, but I lean on the words of Jesus not the Old Testament folks.
I doubt very seriously that God has ever told people to kill thousands on thousands of people. But the victors write the history books and the Bible has a lot of history. That doesn't mean that God said for them to kill thousands upon thousands. I don't picture God that way. We have to interpret the Bible in terms of our culture as well as the culture then. And I guess on what we want to believe.
Anyway, I taught history and historians don't agree themselves. I believe that vast number of wars have had at the base economics driving the war. Religion, nationalism and all kinds of such stuff is used to stir up the masses. If the people knew the REAL reason we were fighting a war, they wouldn't support it so.... enter religion and nationalism.
madame_zora
Sexy Member
Yup, that's it in a nutshell. Freddie, you write the most appealing nutshells! What's embarassing is that this methodology works time after time, human beings really are simple creatures.
lacsap1
Sexy Member
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2002
- Posts
- 201
- Media
- 2
- Likes
- 37
- Points
- 348
- Age
- 47
- Location
- Amsterdam, Netherlands
- Sexuality
- 90% Gay, 10% Straight
- Gender
- Male
Feddie,
May we say; Religion is the greatest "factor" responsible in the world history that led to death of millions of people in so-called holy wars ?
Even though ethnic & nationalistic conflict has resulted in great number of killings in the world history, I donât think, the number is more than those killed in religious holy war since the beginning of human history. Itâs thought that the number of people killed in religious conflicts through the centuries exceeds 100 million (in early civilization various religious killing were in epidemic proportion all over the world), but an exact number would be impossible for any historian to learn. Nevertheless, within whatever has been recorded in the history, some examples are as follows:
-The Taiping Rebellion was launched in China in the 1850s by a Christian convert who said God appeared to him in a vision, told him he was a younger brother of Jesus, and told him to "kill demons." He raised a religious army and waged a horrendous war that killed as many as 20 million people, most encyclopedia say.
-The Thirty Years War between Protestants and Catholics in the 1600s killed an estimated one-third of Germany's population and left the region devastated.
-A half-dozen religious wars between France's Catholics and Protestant Huguenots killed hundreds of thousands. This was part of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, which caused bloodshed all over Europe.
-The half-dozen Christian Crusades into the Holy Land butchered an untold number of people - and then popes began waging "internal crusades" against deviant Christians around Europe. The Hussite Wars were part of this nightmare. So was the Catholic war against Cathari Christians, which killed an estimated 20,000 people at the French city of Beziers.
-Christian pogroms and massacres of Jews recurred for centuries, fueling the anti-Semitism that culminated in Hitler's Holocaust. Many theologians say the Holocaust was a natural outgrowth of Christian hatred for Jews.
-A Buddhist-Hindu civil war is killing great numbers on the island of Sri Lanka(formerlyCeylon).
-Don't forget Ulster, where Catholics and Protestants murder each other
-10,000 Muslims were killed by Muslims themselves by civil war of Jamal. Another 70,000 were killed in siffen war between Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Muaiba.
-Muslim holy wars spread Islam westward across North Africa and up through Spain - and eastward into India - and northward through the Balkans into Austria. God only knows how many died in all those centuries of fighting.
The recent horror in the Balkans (between Catholic Croatians, Orthodox Serbs and Muslim Bosnians and Kosovars) is historic fallout from the ancient Muslim conquest.
-Around 1 million Hindus and Muslims were killed in rioting when India and Pakistan split in the late 1940s - and murder among Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs has continued sporadically ever since.
-The Muslim-Christian civil war in Sudan has been recurring since the 1960s, and has killed about 2 million. Civil war between religious militias devastated Lebanon during the 1980s.
-Also in 1971, Pakistan created one of the cruelest genocides in world
history by killing 3 million Bangalees in then East Pakistan (present
Bangladesh) in the name of protecting religion.
Even today we do see that most of the killings directly or indirectly are related to religion......
May we say; Religion is the greatest "factor" responsible in the world history that led to death of millions of people in so-called holy wars ?
Even though ethnic & nationalistic conflict has resulted in great number of killings in the world history, I donât think, the number is more than those killed in religious holy war since the beginning of human history. Itâs thought that the number of people killed in religious conflicts through the centuries exceeds 100 million (in early civilization various religious killing were in epidemic proportion all over the world), but an exact number would be impossible for any historian to learn. Nevertheless, within whatever has been recorded in the history, some examples are as follows:
-The Taiping Rebellion was launched in China in the 1850s by a Christian convert who said God appeared to him in a vision, told him he was a younger brother of Jesus, and told him to "kill demons." He raised a religious army and waged a horrendous war that killed as many as 20 million people, most encyclopedia say.
-The Thirty Years War between Protestants and Catholics in the 1600s killed an estimated one-third of Germany's population and left the region devastated.
-A half-dozen religious wars between France's Catholics and Protestant Huguenots killed hundreds of thousands. This was part of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, which caused bloodshed all over Europe.
-The half-dozen Christian Crusades into the Holy Land butchered an untold number of people - and then popes began waging "internal crusades" against deviant Christians around Europe. The Hussite Wars were part of this nightmare. So was the Catholic war against Cathari Christians, which killed an estimated 20,000 people at the French city of Beziers.
-Christian pogroms and massacres of Jews recurred for centuries, fueling the anti-Semitism that culminated in Hitler's Holocaust. Many theologians say the Holocaust was a natural outgrowth of Christian hatred for Jews.
-A Buddhist-Hindu civil war is killing great numbers on the island of Sri Lanka(formerlyCeylon).
-Don't forget Ulster, where Catholics and Protestants murder each other
-10,000 Muslims were killed by Muslims themselves by civil war of Jamal. Another 70,000 were killed in siffen war between Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Muaiba.
-Muslim holy wars spread Islam westward across North Africa and up through Spain - and eastward into India - and northward through the Balkans into Austria. God only knows how many died in all those centuries of fighting.
The recent horror in the Balkans (between Catholic Croatians, Orthodox Serbs and Muslim Bosnians and Kosovars) is historic fallout from the ancient Muslim conquest.
-Around 1 million Hindus and Muslims were killed in rioting when India and Pakistan split in the late 1940s - and murder among Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs has continued sporadically ever since.
-The Muslim-Christian civil war in Sudan has been recurring since the 1960s, and has killed about 2 million. Civil war between religious militias devastated Lebanon during the 1980s.
-Also in 1971, Pakistan created one of the cruelest genocides in world
history by killing 3 million Bangalees in then East Pakistan (present
Bangladesh) in the name of protecting religion.
Even today we do see that most of the killings directly or indirectly are related to religion......
Indeed. However, from my study of US foreign policy over the last 50 years, shows that there has been no policy deviations at all. No change in administration ever deviates. Do you not find this interesting or suspicious? Like how Carter managed to preside over the dirtiest secret wars? (Actually more than JFK and that says something). Doesn't that sound a bit odd? Eisenhower was disgusted by what he learned as POTUS. There is something rotten in Washington, no doubt of that. In my mind, what we have with the Bush Administration that is different than previous administrations is that this administration seems to be a bit more blatant about it all. It doesn't disturb the ruling elite class because this is how things have always been done. It does disturb many average people because they are now becoming aware of this.
Here's a couple of links that you might find either interesting or outrageous - but they are hard to deny when you look at the issues dispassionately.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0408/S00277.htm
[url=http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0408/S00277.htm]http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0408/S00277.htm[/url]
The first one discusses the 'black budgets' of the US Government, the second one discusses a few remarkable aspects of the recent history of HUD. You may not believe any of this stuff, but where there's smoke, there is often fire. I consider both links to be 'reasonably' credible statements. Not the whole truth, but certainly more factual than not. Government is a murky world indeed.
madame_zora
Sexy Member
Yeah, that's where a crack team of spin doctors come in handy. What a shame we are so easily lead into religous fervor, even with no evidence at all.
madame_zora
Sexy Member
Well, I hate to admit it, but that certainly seems to be the case. I wish people would practise a bit more discernment when it comes to who to trust in leadership, some lies are worse than others. We've gotten into discussions here about lying about penis size- I don't care about that because it doesn't affect me in any way. Not all people who attend AA meetings are actually sober- I also don't care about that, they may come around one day. BUT- not all who say "Lord, lord" are Christian, and I DO care about that if the prez is using people's genuine love for God to glean acceptance for violence and greed. The true believers of this country have been raped religously by a man out to do harm, and they aren't even angry, or aware. That is a crime.
gwinea2000:
Sounds about right. Example: Many people on this site are quite 'passionate' in their hatred for Bush and the current administration -- so much so that they lose sight of both logic and common sense. It's the same old story: Reach a conclusion, then set out to find some corroborative evidence. Heck, that's why conspiracies sell!
I don't mind. It humors me daily.
Sounds about right. Example: Many people on this site are quite 'passionate' in their hatred for Bush and the current administration -- so much so that they lose sight of both logic and common sense. It's the same old story: Reach a conclusion, then set out to find some corroborative evidence. Heck, that's why conspiracies sell!
I don't mind. It humors me daily.
jeepwranglerboi
Experimental Member
Sounds about right. Example: Many people on this site are quite 'passionate' in their hatred for Bush and the current administration -- so much so that they lose sight of both logic and common sense. It's the same old story: Reach a conclusion, then set out to find some corroborative evidence. Heck, that's why conspiracies sell!
I don't mind. It humors me daily.
[post=280152]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]Yes, I am an extremely passionate person. I throw myself into what ever I do 150%. To quote Madonna, (I know that I will get berated for quoting her) "I hate people who hate." I have no respect for people who are close minded and think that their way is the only way. That to me is what pretty much sums up how W and his administration behave. I do not believe in forcing beliefs on to people and it seems to me that it's all the Bush administration wants to do. Let's face it the majority of this country is not white Christian conservative wealthy males plain and simple yet that is who this administration is geared towards. I don't understand it. I certainly do not pretend to understand it and I sure as hell don't believe that I will ever even come close to grasping it. I firmly believe that the history books will tell the tale. I believe that this era will be looked upon as a dark and gloomy period in the history of the US. I have not lost sight of logic or common sense by any means whatsoever. I promise you this much, my generation will not accept the tyranny that this administration imposes on us. Mark my words, change will occur for the better of this country, for it's people and for the generations to come. I know that it is a dark and stormy time now but there is indeed a light at the end of the tunnel.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2004
- Posts
- 5,830
- Media
- 0
- Likes
- 2,616
- Points
- 333
- Location
- Memphis (Tennessee, United States)
- Gender
- Male
I'm not sure. If you add culture to the mix, probably so. I know that in the Catholic and Protestent fight in Ireland, many of the zealots haven't been in a church very many times. I know that most of the preachers and priests have condemned the fighting. Anyone who knows anything about Christianity would know that both groups fighting are violating the tenets of their own religion.
I still maintain that culture and religion are often used to hide the real reason for war and that is to clear out a territory of people of one culture to make room for the expansion for another culture. So the culture is very important in the causes for war. But the wining culture needed the land to expand the population of its culture.
There are many zealots for this war we have that are not religious on both sides. They are though fighting each other's culture which means a way of life which may or may not include religion.
Stalin and Hitler are examples of using culture, Nazism and Communism as reasons to fight other people and mass murder those who didn't conform to the state model. In these cases, it is culture without religion.
So, if we use the word culture (with or without religion), probably is slightly above economics. But economics is so intertwined sometimes it is hard to really know which is the true driving force that caused the war. Remember that the real reasons for war are often hidden from the people. Our country would never go to war if we told the people that Dick Chaney lost money in Iraq and we went in to get it back for him. So religion and culture are thrown into the mix to confuse the people.
But you have a very valid point. We can't deny that some wars and mass murders were done solely on the basis of religious beliefs. And usually those mass murders aren't sanctioned by the founders of the religions. But some insane disciples who are crazy take a peaceful religion and turn it into a force of evil, deceit, and murder.
It is a shame that people think they have to kill each other all the time. The ironic thing is that no major religion even teaches this. All seem to support peace and tranquility or at least part of their sacred writings say this.
- jonb,
Which is why a White House aide referred to aforementioned Bush-haters as "the reality-based community". You really shouldn't talk about facts, given the history of think tanks. Here are some facts:
*There is no reason our military should be paying $45 for a case of Pepsi. You can get 24 cans at a vending machine for $9.60. Yet, even though Halliburton's been caught overcharging, Bush continues to pay them.
*There is also no reason to privatize our elections and only let the company in question count the votes. I've got the technology to make an electronic voting system which works right in my home; it's called a printer.
*Speaking of privatization, it's just another level of Big Government. Why? Because many in the populace are seriously confused about why Big Government's bad. It's not bad just because it's big and government-related; it's bad because it costs money. Privatization just adds a middle man.
*While we're at it, deregulation, isn't. The deep dark secret of the Reagan administration is that all those "deregulations" actually made for even more complex codes for the oversight bureaucracies.
*Did you hear about the new FCC standards? Basically, the argument is that monopoly or oligopoly is a form of free speech, much like spammers claim spam is. Thankfully, they were defeated in the Senate. Wait, you didn't hear about these new FCC standards? I wonder why . . .
*Speaking of the media, what's with the Florida thing? I mean, "Thomas Cooper, convicted 1/30/07, black". There were also many where their conviction date was a null entry, they were convicted in a state where felons are allowed to vote, or they were convicted of a misdemeanor.
*Bush has repeatedly lied about the inheritance tax. It only affects the richest 2%, and it never affects farmers.
*It's well-known both Powell and Condi said there were no WMDs in Iraq in 2001. So where did they come from in 2002?
*The Congressional 9/11 Commission Report states that there was no connection between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. Why does Bush continue to imply there was?
*Why is Bush obsessed with gay marriage? Honestly, several of my relatives are gay, and combined they never mentioned gay marriage as much in their entire lives as Bush did in the 2004 election.
*Finally, what is it about Canadian medicine which makes it innately bad for you? What I mean is, does a picosecond north of the 49th parallel turn everything into cyanide? Is it some "vital force", as in homeopathy, feng shui, or chiropractics? If so, then, like the aforementioned medicines, can only its practitioners (Bush and his cronies) detect it?
madame_zora
Sexy Member
Yeah, I thought that post would go unanswered. No one likes to deal with the facts, it's easier just to support the admin. and turn a blind eye to all the bullshit that's going on.
- jonb,
Yeah, confusing ballots were the least of the problems with Florida. It's very Orwellian; some stories remain for years (Monica Lewinsky), while others disappear entirely (Enron).
That's why I like Citizens for Public Integrity. Before anyone claims they're a bunch of leftists, CPI broke the Lincoln bedroom story.
That's why I like Citizens for Public Integrity. Before anyone claims they're a bunch of leftists, CPI broke the Lincoln bedroom story.
madame_zora
Sexy Member
Unfortunately, the stupid stories stick around longer because they're easier for the stupid people to understand. You posted a news story on statistical differentials in the Celebrity thread, you can't really think Joe Sixpack has a chance in hell of even grasping those concepts, let alone comprehending the gravity of them. But a blow job- by God, that's just not right! I love statistics, and I find that stuff tough to read. There are no jokes, the writer doesn't try very hard to accomodate the reader, it's just a littany of facts and sources- not a fun read at all.
Oh well, it's Superbowl Sunday, the election's over, middle America settles for beer and TV anesthesia.
Oh well, it's Superbowl Sunday, the election's over, middle America settles for beer and TV anesthesia.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2004
- Posts
- 5,830
- Media
- 0
- Likes
- 2,616
- Points
- 333
- Location
- Memphis (Tennessee, United States)
- Gender
- Male
Why is it that some of these stupid people are doctors, lawyers, CEO and on and on. Are they playing a game of charade or something?
Bush is the most double standard President in recent history. What he actually does is the opposite of what he does. It is apparent that power is all he is interested in. He doesn't give a rats ass about politics, religions, intetgrity, people and on and on. No just power and money for he and his friends. Anyone making less that 200,000 per year clear profit is a fool for supporting him.
Jana, most people don't really read the issues. They pick who they are for on one single something that they have a burr up their butt about and they consider nothing else. Not all Repllubicans are bad, but this particular one in the Whte House is dangerous.
- jonb,
One of my favorite bits of propaganda was the Nick Berg video. Some of the things I noticed:
*One of the terrorists is wearing a gold ring. Either he's a very mannish woman, or he's not an Islamic fundamentalist.
*The real Zarqawi has an inoperable prosthetic leg and a tattoo on his left hand; the man identified as Zarqawi has a tattoo and is standing.
*Where's the blood? And why is the cut so straight? Neither is typical of a beheading, as anyone with even basic medical knowledge can attest.
*The Berg family says that's not their son, and Berg himself goes to extremes to say that he's their son.
*Berg apparently screams like a woman. In fact, the dubbing for the video, even the original, is reminiscent of a kung fu movie.
*Berg was last seen in U.S. custody. Berg's wearing a jumpsuit typical of people detained by the military.
*The weapons, supposedly AK-47s, are the Galil model. Who makes Galils? Israel.
*The whole timing is very "wag the dog".
*Only American media could find the video on the Al-Ansar site.
Of course, it's not just a matter of ratings. I mean, the Bush font story wasn't that interesting.
*One of the terrorists is wearing a gold ring. Either he's a very mannish woman, or he's not an Islamic fundamentalist.
*The real Zarqawi has an inoperable prosthetic leg and a tattoo on his left hand; the man identified as Zarqawi has a tattoo and is standing.
*Where's the blood? And why is the cut so straight? Neither is typical of a beheading, as anyone with even basic medical knowledge can attest.
*The Berg family says that's not their son, and Berg himself goes to extremes to say that he's their son.
*Berg apparently screams like a woman. In fact, the dubbing for the video, even the original, is reminiscent of a kung fu movie.
*Berg was last seen in U.S. custody. Berg's wearing a jumpsuit typical of people detained by the military.
*The weapons, supposedly AK-47s, are the Galil model. Who makes Galils? Israel.
*The whole timing is very "wag the dog".
*Only American media could find the video on the Al-Ansar site.
Of course, it's not just a matter of ratings. I mean, the Bush font story wasn't that interesting.
