Women who don't really like other women.

[B_New End]

This competitive nature in some women drives me bonkers.

What competitive nature? I ain't never had no women fight over me... well at least not since sixth grade.

It's like this:

I look at a cute girl living her cute barista girl life, watching dollar bills drop in her tip jar because she has a pretty face, and think, "man, life as a woman must be easy. Fuckin' women... go through life on their looks... never have to really work, just smile and show cleavage... "

and women look at men and think, "look at that guy, all he ever does is think about getting laid, and he treats women like shit. Fucking men, only think with their dicks..."

both of those are observations of the lucky ones... and more than likely... the ones you can never have. For every barista that has an overflowing tip jar there is an ugly girl that is still a virgin at 25, and has never had a man try to make conversation with her. Likewise, for every guy that is only thinking with his dick,m there is a guy that just wishes a girl, any girl, would just talk to him.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

Competition is relative, when i drove a sports car i would sometimes have someone pull up next to me and rev their engine to race. I didn't have to race, i didn't want to race but does that mean where ever i drove my car that it didn't look sportier and more attractive than many cars i parked next to?

No, racing that car at an intersection was my choice, it made no difference in the longevity of my life or whether or not my car was nice or acceptable to most people. It is no different when it comes to women in the real world.

I can sit in the presence of a beautiful woman and not feel jealous or envious. I can chat in the chatroom with other women who are naked on cam and i might choose not to turn mine on at all. I might look horrible that day with dark circles under my eyes and spongebob pajamas on. I'm a clunker some days because in all practicality that's what I chose to be in that moment, i didnt spiff up, i didn't put on make up, I'm just going to the grocery store for some toilet paper and milk. I drove my "daily driver" car instead of the sports car that day.

Some people are sporting clunkers daily, envious of the sports cars around them getting attention and instead of changing their lives to be able to drive something more like what they want, they are trying to change the world and make them have standards of being in awe over something that isn't as impressive.

Other days i might be dressed to the nines, all glammed up for whatever reason. No one is my competition in my mind. If you have something to offer another person and it's worth their while to take you up on it- you are standing out among everyone else.

It's all relative and has alot more to do with our own self esteem than what the other people really look like. I drive a car that is a daily driver with a bit of sport, i get the best of both worlds and it represents being somewhere in the middle with my income, standards and desires to have something that meets many needs in my world.

We should strive to be more somewhere in the middle, personable and attractive in our own mind, we will often find others who agree with us if we aren't walking around trying to be McLaren F1's or a 1983 Buick Le Saber that has bondo all over it.

 

[ConstantComment]

****For every barista that has an overflowing tip jar there is an ugly girl that is still a virgin at 25, and has never had a man try to make conversation with her. ****

I don't think it's all that simple. I've seen some rather plain (if not ugly by my estimation) women who have done well, socially and professionally, in life. By that, I mean happy stable relationships and reasonable success in their work.

Based on my own experience, I wonder if it does start with the parents. My parents and grandparents, constantly harped on my appearance to the point where I doubted that I was attractive. Their excuse? They wanted me to be the best that I could be. But in many situations, looking back on it, I got a lot of play and now when I look at photos of myself from my 20s, I think I looked hot.

Less than attractive girls, I surmise, weren't burdened with this idealism. They got a sense of their value when they dealt directly with others and learned to adjust their behavior to maximise their success and satisfaction each time.

Me? I kept trying so hard to make people like me because I had been so ingrained to believing that I was in the one down position.Even today, I am 50, my parents act like I better act right with this guy, whomever I am dating, or he'll leave me. (don't worry, these days it's not so dire as I try to have as little contact with them as possible) But I think quite often, those who try too hard get taken advantage of, as others learn that they can take and not have to give. IF you feel that you are in the one down position, you learn not to complain....too much. But this would explain why attractive women quite often aren't the most popular in a situation. And can aslo be the least happy, satisfied with their circumstance.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

New End, what is it with you and baristas???

 

[B_New End]

New End, what is it with you and baristas???

Maybe it is because I made lattes for a while. Very easy job. An attractive girl can really make a whole hell of a lot of money being a barista. Like avg $30 an hour. Not bad for a job that requires no education or expertise. It seems about 90% of lattemakers I see are female.

They make better tips, and the prettier they are, the more they make. *gonna get in trouble for this* Baristas and bartenders are really a few steps away from strippers. They know it, they work it. Over here in Seattle we have "natte latte" and "knotty body's" Little latte shacks with very scantily clad women serving up suits and blue collar schlubs their favorite espresso with an extra shot of tit and ass. Coffee shops and bars have a tendency to hire attractive women for their positions.

I got a lot of play and now when I look at photos of myself from my 20s, I think I looked hot.

That's the thing though, isn't it? Grass is always greener on the other side. Men say things all the time like, "women have it so easy, half the money, all the pussy", or "a woman can go out and get laid anytime she wants." It's really not true. When a guy says that, (and it takes actual, deliberate contemplation to separate truth from cliche), he is thinking of the girl who was trained to be eye candy.

They got a sense of their value when they dealt directly with others and learned to adjust their behavior to maximise their success and satisfaction each time.

Everybody does. Yes, some less attractive girls can make it. But it doesn't come nearly as easy to them.

But this would explain why attractive women quite often aren't the most popular in a situation. And can aslo be the least happy, satisfied with their circumstance.

Or it could be simply like an America complaining about pickles and onions on their big mac. (a Somali would be happy to have pickles and onions on their big mac). Some people are simply never satisfied.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

Ok New End, we don't have that sort of love for latte's like that down here. But when you are in seattle, omg i bet you have to get creative with business ideas. Nothing sells like sex, sex and coffee.

 

[D_Montagu_Udderpuller]

It is clear from the tone of Patchos's posts that she is anti-man.

at the very least, anti-male for anything other than a relationship, and even then it sounds like the attitude is "i dont like mine but i will have sex with them because i am straight." Not really gonna judge that just pointing some stuff out. You can only make friends with girls, cant trust guys, and consider yourself straight? hmmmm...

 

[sbat]

It is clear from the tone of Patchos's posts that she is anti-man.

at the very least, anti-male for anything other than a relationship, and even then it sounds like the attitude is "i dont like mine but i will have sex with them because i am straight." Not really gonna judge that just pointing some stuff out. You can only make friends with girls, cant trust guys, and consider yourself straight? hmmmm...

There is a male equivalent, Method. The men who believe in Bros before Hoes, and refer to all women except for their mothers and sisters as bitches. It's just that she seems to think the majority of men in the world are like this, and seems to ignore the fact that older, often married with kids, largely unattractive, women do more to suppress other women than men do.

Try being an extremely beautiful woman in a country like Turkey. You are far more likely to be abused, suppressed, and exploited by other women than you are by men. This is recognized both by feminists, and of course, by the poor young women whose only crime was being a "sports car" able to outrace anything without even trying. Hell, there was even an exhibit in the Womens Art museum in DC in May from women artists from Turkey that explored this issue (woman on woman suppression) extensively within the larger context of the woman's struggle in the Middle East.

But as I said before. The brand of feminism that shrilly denounces the patriarchy is both class oriented (restricted to white, middle-upper class women in the first world) and more emotionally driven misandry than a logical philosophy.

 

[dolfette]

i think most of us have had enough bad experiences of men to at least be wary.

for the guys a bad experience with a woman is rarely physically threatening, so you're not likely to understand quite how wary it can make a person.

i like some men, just as i like some women, but it'll take me a hell of a lot longer to trust the men.

 

[B_New End]

An interesting thing about the hijab in Indonesia and many other South Asian countries is it became the dress of defiance to western and upper class culture. The hijab is considered women's liberation in many countries, foreign as that may sound to western countries. The reason is, many women don't like that men are always leering at them and objectifying them. Likewise, one of my professor who lived in Egypt for a decade said, "if you are a man, and you wore shorts, people would just think you were a freak"

So if Patchos is offended by pornography because it objectifies women, then she should also be offended by mini skirts and high heels and low-cut blouses.

I'll be honest, if i lived in a world where women all wore hijabs, I woudn't care. Hell, it would probably be a better world.

Try being an extremely beautiful woman in a country like Turkey.

I had an extremely beautiful friend in Turkey... she thought she was just average (Turkey naturally has really hot women, IMHO). She never mentioned anything about women giving her problems. Her brothers gave her problems, but those were dating problems. (In fact she was afraid they would find out she was talking to me, even though it was just about 3d modeling).

 

[sbat]

i think most of us have had enough bad experiences of men to at least be wary.

for the guys a bad experience with a woman is rarely physically threatening, so you're not likely to understand quite how wary it can make a person.

i like some men, just as i like some women, but it'll take me a hell of a lot longer to trust the men.

I know plenty of men who are just as wary of marriage, having babies, and anything to do with women. I bet there are a number of gay men on this site who "turned" out of frustration with women. It goes both ways, all I'm trying to say.

@New End

My girlfriend is a beautiful Turkish girl as well. She did diplomacy/lobbying in DC for a while, and had to go through tremendous lengths of making herself look less attractive (ugly makeup and grandma-type clothing) to be accepted by her professional female peers within the Turkish community, despite the fact that she was director at the US office of one of the biggest Turkish lobbies in the US. She had no such issues with men, and in fact the people that have helped her advance her career have ALL been men. Even within her own family (aside from the dating issue), her mother uses all sorts of maniuplation to get my girlfriend to just stay with her in their tiny rural hometown in Turkey rather than fully realize her formidable talent on a bigger stage, while her father is the one that pushes her to maximize her abilities.

My mother is another example - she was verbally and emotionally abused by her female graduate advisor when getting her masters degree at the University of Maryland, who happened to be a woman who gained her position purely because of a race-based initiative, rather than outstanding talent. She felt incredibly threatened by my mother being so much smarter than her, and literally did everything she could to sabotage my mother's career. Fortunately, my mother is incredibly tough, and that woman was a bit too overzealous that my mother was able to change advisors.

It's a dangerous self-delusion to pretend that women are purely the victims of the exploitative nature of the existing social/economic system that runs this world. There are many women who are empowered by it, and use that power to exploit and oppress men as well as their fellow women. I'm not here trying to say that one suffers more, or that all men/women should be trusted. It's just that when I see misogyny or misandry justified with some pseudo-intellectual justification, I'm going to call bullshit.

 

[dolfette]

I know plenty of men who are just as wary of marriage, having babies, and anything to do with women. I bet there are a number of gay men on this site who "turned" out of frustration with women. It goes both ways, all I'm trying to say.

and i know plenty of women who don't want to be trapped by marriage and babies. why the assumptiopn that it only works one way?

but to compare the impact those ordinary relationship frustrations to the trauma of real or threatened physical/sexual assault...well i laughed when i read it.

 

[HiddenLacey]

i think most of us have had enough bad experiences of men to at least be wary.

for the guys a bad experience with a woman is rarely physically threatening, so you're not likely to understand quite how wary it can make a person.

i like some men, just as i like some women, but it'll take me a hell of a lot longer to trust the men.

I agree with you 100%.

and i know plenty of women who don't want to be trapped by marriage and babies. why the assumptiopn that it only works one way?

but to compare the impact those ordinary relationship frustrations to the trauma of real or threatened physical/sexual assault...well i laughed when i read it.

And once again I agree. IMO most men will rarely encounter a woman that is physically stronger than he is.

I can come out and be truthful on this site and say the idea of becoming married and being trapped even more so in any situation with a man, LITERALLY makes me break into a cold sweat. And babies? That is just something else that can be held over my head and used to manipulate me.

I understand that guys have problems with women and that women can be abusive mentally and physically, but when it comes down to it I am a hell of a lot more worried and stand offish to a man than to a woman.

 

[B_subgirrl]

i think most of us have had enough bad experiences of men to at least be wary.

for the guys a bad experience with a woman is rarely physically threatening, so you're not likely to understand quite how wary it can make a person.

i like some men, just as i like some women, but it'll take me a hell of a lot longer to trust the men.

Seems like I've just been lucky, but I've had few bad experiences with men, and none have been physically threatening.

On the other hand I've had quite a lot of bad experiences with women, and two of those lead to the other woman/women trying to beat me up.

So personally, I put way more faith in men. The women I like, I love to pieces, but outside of those few I rarely trust women.

 

[Not_Punny]

I have no close female friends.

Doesn't mean I don't like women.

But since my mom died, there isn't a single woman on my frequently dialed list (other than my teen daughter).

 

[B_New End]

It's just that when I see misogyny or misandry justified with some pseudo-intellectual justification, I'm going to call bullshit.

Believe me, I know. I really hate the battle of the sexes because of all the bullshit I hear. I know very well that when given the opportunity, women will exercise power and authority as heinously as any man, and any notions of "sisterhood" fly out the window.

There is the prejudiced assumptions based on experience, which is aggravating but human... but then there is also the societal media machine driving a whole bunch of cliches that are unnecessary.

despite the fact that she was director at the US office of one of the biggest Turkish lobbies in the US

Believe it or not... I know a whole hell of a lot about the Turkish lobby in America.

But really, does scanty dress represent freedom? Is lipstick fashion or liberty?

 

[Not_Punny]

Lipstick is gross and sticky. I prefer dickstick. :tongue:

 

[helgaleena]

Scanty dress represents freedom when it becomes normal. In ancient India clothes were not the norm, only jewelry. In New Guinea a penis sheath is plenty, as long as you are in the right part of town.

When humans are repressed enough to lose 'control' at the glimpse of an ankle or someone's hair, it's sad.

 

[B_New End]

Scanty dress represents freedom when it becomes normal.

By that definition the hijab represents freedom. And in some areas in Afghanistan, the burka represents freedom, because it is normal.


I mean, a lot of people, men and women, would consider not wearing a birka like walking around without pants on.

A couple weeks ago I saw something interesting. It was about 75 degrees and sunny outside, and two young muslim girls were walking down the street. One was wearing a birka, the other was wearing a furry hooded jacket. She must have been dying inside... ...but better that then embarrassing yourself.

I was raised in a church... matriarchal church, where dress was regulated heavily... and it was definitely run by women. There was no law... but social pressure can be much more "oppressive" than any political pressure.
Rev. Berniece R. Hicks
However, try telling these women in this church they are oppressed.

 

[Enid]

Lipstick is gross and sticky. I prefer dickstick. :tongue:

Amen, sister. :yup: