;)bisexual is better

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throb919: [quote author=Javierdude23 link=board=meetgreet;num=1056566246;start=0#19 date=07/01/03 at 01:21:45]
...The dickpart is leaning more towards guys, sad enough. My brain part is oriented 100% towards girls, WEIRD enough...they don't mix see.
[/quote]
I do see, Javier. But at the risk of a pat and simplistic answer, isn't that (just) internalized homophobia? The "just" doesn't intend to minimize: society, real-life, tradition, religion reinforce it everyday. Would it be easier to be straight? Probably. Does it make things easier to "pass" sometimes? Yeah. (Said as a gay guy.) Is easier better? Not if it's not really you. Blo's shrink could do better with this than I, but as long as your own feelings about your bi side are "sad enough," you'll probably be sad, y'know...?

 

[Pecker]

[quote author=AnonyMs link=board=meetgreet;num=1056566246;start=0#16 date=06/30/03 at 17:17:24]I am not so sure 100% is truly the case.[/quote]

Please note, guys, that I emphasised statistically.  Mayhaps I should have been more specific in my facetiousness.

(removes tongue from cheek)

Pecker

 

[jdoe86]

:-*I love all the talk. I can tell you that when I go out, I l don't try to limit myself, but some out there are still kind of freaked out by being bi. I find that gay guys are actually kind of put off if I tell them I'm bi. I don't really understand this, but as long as they come home with me and enjoy themselves, that's all that matters.

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

[quote author=Javierdude23 link=board=meetgreet;num=1056566246;start=0#19 date=07/01/03 at 01:21:45]I think it is always harder when your on the bispectrum of things, cause i think that eventually you'll have to fight off the desire to -just quickyly, just once, to get it off your head- do it with the other sex than the one youre building a life with.[/quote]

I can understand that, man. Maybe that's why I have a pretty pathetic way of looking at monogamy, thus far -- that is, if I'm really in love with the one I'm with, then my tendencies to have attractions for the other sex will simply fall by the wayside? Or, I could always look at both sexes and find attractive people either way -- but if I'm truly in love with someone, the attractions are nothing more than that, physical and fleeting.

It's a comforting thought; you know, that perhaps there's someone out there that will make me feel this way. And trust me, there's a lot of cynicism to crack through. I have been in a few serious relationships but, in time, I got bored with them and wanted my freedom; the companionship felt nice, but I was ready to move on and find someone new.

Oh well, I'm still young. I'm only 23 and though I don't patrol the streets, scouring for people with whom to get off sexually, I know I'm not ready for anything too serious -- much less that whole "love" thing.

 

[13788]

throb919: [quote author=geo8x6 link=board=meetgreet;num=1056566246;start=20#22 date=07/01/03 at 11:19:30] I find that gay guys are actually kind of put off if I tell them I'm bi. I don't really understand this, but as long as they come home with me and enjoy themselves, that's all that matters.[/quote]
Geo--there's the other phenomenon of gay guys finding bi and "straight" guys a challenge. Have you run across that...? My buddy Mike (I mentioned earlier) said he does better with gay guys if he tells 'em he's straight. If they think he's bi, they think it's a cop-out; if he says straight, then they rise to the challenge. Sort-of a we'll-see-about-that "trophy" thing. Yeah, that's selling my gay brothers short maybe, but just as a pick-up technique, it's worth a try. As you said: as long as they come home and enjoy themselves...!

(DMW: don't sic the Ass Pirates Union on me for defamation of character--please!)

 

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Javierdude22: [quote author=DeeBlackthorne link=board=meetgreet;num=1056566246;start=20#23 date=07/01/03 at 13:26:00]

I can understand that, man.  Maybe that's why I have a pretty pathetic way of looking at monogamy, thus far -- that is, if I'm really in love with the one I'm with, then my tendencies to have attractions for the other sex will simply fall by the wayside?  Or, I could always look at both sexes and find attractive people either way -- but if I'm truly in love with someone, the attractions are nothing more than that, physical and fleeting.

It's a comforting thought; you know, that perhaps there's someone out there that will make me feel this way.  And trust me, there's a lot of cynicism to crack through.  I have been in a few serious relationships but, in time, I got bored with them and wanted my freedom; the companionship felt nice, but I was ready to move on and find someone new.

Oh well, I'm still young.  I'm only 23 and though I don't patrol the streets, scouring for people with whom to get off sexually, I know I'm not ready for anything too serious -- much less that whole "love" thing.


[/quote]

Dee, you are so very articulate, that alas....my brain closed down for the night. So i didnt totally understand what you were saying in your first paragraph, would you care to elaborate on it? Did you mean your feelings for the other sex go away when you find that special someone?

Your second paragraph is TOTALLY where i'm at right now. Searching, if you will, and snooping around...but after a few months, weeks, days, i get bored, and more importantly...i want my freedom back. Whenever the nagging starts, as trivial as it may seem, i'll cop out. It's not a very cool trait, to say the least, but it's nothing i have control over. The whole love thing, i wóuld like to encounter whenever it strikes me, but i want to feel 100% committence within me, not one single doubt, fear, or quesy-ness. And thats what patience is usefull for.

 

[13788]

AnonyMs: [quote author=Javierdude23 link=board=meetgreet;num=1056566246;start=20#25 date=07/01/03 at 14:30:40]
Whenever the nagging starts, as trivial as it may seem, i'll cop out. It's not a very cool trait, to say the least, but it's nothing i have control over. The whole love thing, i wóuld like to encounter whenever it strikes me, but i want to feel 100% committence within me, not one single doubt, fear, or quesy-ness. And thats what patience is usefull for.
[/quote]
here's is a news flash, sports fans... love is NOT a feeling, love is a decision. Do you think there is any couple in the world that feels loving 100% of the time? Of course not. Love is a decision to stay the course, no matter what unless staying the course might result in physical harm to yourself. Basing a relationship on feelings alone, while a terribly romantic idea, is a recipe for disaster in the long run. Respect, common values and interests, communication and trust go a long way towards making a relationship last than merely feelings.

 

[13788]

throb919: [quote author=AnonyMs link=board=meetgreet;num=1056566246;start=20#26 date=07/01/03 at 14:40:22]Love is a decision to stay the course...
Basing a relationship on feelings alone, while a terribly romantic idea, is a recipe for disaster in the long run. Respect, common values and interests, communication and trust go a longer way towards making a relationship last than merely feelings.
[/quote]
May I try to tie the two together, for Javier and Dee? (Maybe even without sounding totally moon-June sappy?) When the this-is-the-one feelings are there, then you'll be ready for the commitment. To make the decision. To make it work. You're young and that's great; what's even better is that you realize you're not ready for it yet. Maybe when it's right, Javier, you won't feel queasy. And she (or maybe even he)(it could happen ;-) ) will take your mind off all the others you won't "get" to have. And you won't be able to imagine your life without her (him). Don't be so hard on yourself. You either, Dee--and you're not nearly so cynical as you see yourself. (Another 2 cents from a guy < gulp > twice your age.)

 

[13788]

blo1988: Shit, my shrink has gotten a lot more print than I expected...............

Ok, so I'll bite.

I was fortunate to be in a relatively sophisticated environment (medical training) that made access to therapy easier for me than most.
I haven't sought help in a while because I was pretty well sorted out. I took avantage of the opportunity. It is a bit daunting, I must confess, to dig into one's self. It is not for the faint-hearted.
On the other hand, it was a great blessing because the extra insight helped reduce the amount of time that I stumbled through relationships. They reflected the dissonance of my unresolved internal conflicts.
Fuck.....I hate it when I sound so clinical.
But, that was the problem in a nutshell.
I think that the first step towards resolution of conflict is to be non-judgementally clear about what you feel. Hell, at the start I could hardly say what I felt without apologizing to the therapist.
Javier, Hispanic Catholics tend to be quite judgemental about homosexuality in my experience. That will be NO help for you as you sort these issues out. But, as the oldest child, only son, of a uneducated, fundamentalist protestant in the South.....well...it was no cake-walk......but it was quite possible.
I discovered that I could point to all the external issues(family,society,etc) that provoked my anxiety but the REAL problem was internal. The demons that I carried were in MY head. I had to make peace with MYSELF (not an overnight deal). Someone's remark or a societal judgement doesn't have power over you unless you assign it power. That is the key to therapy. It can offer the opportunity to understand what pushes your buttons. The bottom line is that you still have the hard work of making peace with yourself. It helped me go down that road.
Blah,blah,blah....sorry ...are you still awake???
Anyway, I am totally sincere about this.
As far as the power of love goes.......
To me it is like a drug. When the emotion is genuine and new it draws me like an addiction. As it matures it grounds me. the sexual politics of the relationship become secondary.

Ok, I sound like a romantic.
Bingo. Guilty.
Later.........

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

[quote author=throb919 link=board=meetgreet;num=1056566246;start=20#24 date=07/01/03 at 13:28:55]
(DMW: don't sic the Ass Pirates Union on me for defamation of character--please!)
[/quote]

Why would I sic them on you? What you say is true. I don't know what the fascination with seducing straight guys is all about; not all gay men share it, but I see it often enough to know it's real. Sure, I've had sex with straight guys who have a curiosity, but that's not something I seek out. We're not all on the prowl for straight meat, trust me.

Here's my take on why bi men are ostracised by the gay community. We accept that bisexuality does exist, but we read enough to know that truly bisexual males are very rare. We see enough gay men that date/fuck/marry women as a cover to make us suspicious. When I hear a man state that he's bi, I'll be honest: my first thought is, "bi or pretending that he's bi?" Many gay men do say they are bi in order to 'qualify' to pass in the straight world. I'm not accusing anybody here: I'm stating personal observations from real life. They feel gay = sissy, queen, fairy, nelly. In order to feel masculine, they have to like pussy as well. I'm from a sports-watching family, and I was able to catch on real quick that there are gay sports figures that are masculine, e.g. David Kopay, Greg Louganis, Martina Navratilova, etc. I've never felt the need to claim bisexuality to reaffirm my masculinity. Again, I'm not accusing anyone here, but I'm expressing views shared by many gay men.

I am also from a Hispanic Catholic family. The culture reveres machismo and it does tend to be homophobic, but in my experience I've found the typical Hispanic household to view familia as more dear than machismo. It took my family some time to sort through their feelings concerning my homosexuality, but they realised that I will always be family and that's not a bond they're willing to sever for any reason.

 

[13788]

blo1988: DMW,I also think that for some identifying as bi is a discovery process. I went from thinking of myself as straight, to gay, to bisexual with a preference for men.
It was much simpler for me to be gay or straight because of the odd politics of identifying my bisexuality. I totally agree that there is a suspicious veiw among gay men about those who identify as "bi". I think that it is based on the real world experience that is often seen.....men who eventually identify as gay often phase into it....passing through bisexual as an "acceptable" transition.
Such is life in many issues....not just sexuality. One's understanding can evolve.
The politics of bisexuality are complicated by the fact that sex is a potent(ok,pun) topic. It is easier to understand polar opposites than some kind of blend. But isn't almost every natural phenomenon a gradient?
Isn't odd that sexuality is pushed from the middle to the ends?
It became easier for me to date just men because the politics was simpler. I don't feel "deprived", but it doesn't remove the fact that I see women that I am sexually attracted to.
There are times when I am out of town that I want to have a taste of something different in a place where the tale won't catch up with me....but haven't for the sake of a relationship.
Hell, Breyer's mint chocolate chip is my favorite ice cream....but sometimes I want butter pecan. Human libido doesn't HAVE to be more complicated than that just because it involves your dick, does it? The discriminator is that we don't have such complex societal views on ice cream....and relationship politics aren't involved.
After all, we wouldn't spend this much time discussing ice cream...........

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

[quote author=blo1988 link=board=meetgreet;num=1056566246;start=20#30 date=07/01/03 at 20:03:46]Breyer's mint chocolate chip is my favorite ice cream....but sometimes I want butter pecan. Human libido doesn't HAVE to be more complicated than that just because it involves your dick, does it? [/quote]

Yes, it DOES HAVE to be more complicated than that when human beings are involved. Mint Chocolate Chip won't feel betrayed when you have Butter Pecan instead. Butter Pecan won't wonder if you're eating it to seem more socially acceptable. Mint Chocolate Chip doesn't wonder (and doesn't care) if you'll switch to Butter Pecan for good even if you still harbour private desires for Mint Chocolate Chip. Human affairs are much more complicated than food preferences. And the dick is only peripherally involved. The brain governs what one finds sexually attractive; the dick just follows what the brain tells it.

 

[13788]

Ineligible: I think the assumption that straight men find the perfect girl, marry her and never are tempted by anyone else, is way off line. After 20 years of marriage, when the woman you have married has got older with you, the affection is greater than ever but the lust is bound to have decreased, and the lust instinct is looking for greener grass in other paddocks. So I don't see such a large difference between married straight or bi men. Both are going to be tempted by people other than their wives, and will need to make use of their willpower, loyalty, and dedication to their promise. However, I do concede that the bi man has the additional "what if?" factor of not only a different individual, but a different style.

 

[13788]

throb919: Uh...DMW...that's why Blo said:

The discriminator is that we don't have such complex societal views on ice cream....and relationship politics aren't involved.

He gets it. Easy, fella!

(Pralines and cream is one my favorite flavors, N'Orleans boy...! Especially served-up with a big dipper...)

T

 

[13788]

blo1988: Yeah, 919 is right. I totally "get it". What I was trying to emphasize was exactly the sentence that you highlighted.
A non-judgemental acceptance of one's libido interests is one thing....what you do with it is another.

DMW, I totally agree that people can get hurt, etc. That is why I mentioned that I didn't fish in two ponds indiscriminantly. That is the element of personal and sexual politics which I was referring to.....it is the practical element in this matter that needs to be considered.

However.......what MANY struggle with are the issues of internalized homophobia, religious discrimination, etc that cause self-persecution, depression,etc. They cannot sort out what they feel because they are hamstrung by useless internalized drama. If someone can sort out those issues then the rest is just a matter of exercising mature, practical reasoning to relationships.

Unfortunately, what happens too often is that we are driven , somewhat blindly, by the destructive energy of our internal conflicts. This aften leads to a succession of unfullfiling relationships.

This is true for all of us. Not just in sexual matters....but in any significant aspect of human relationship that isn't sorted out. In the context of a relationship, insight is helpful in every important facet.

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

Bravo, Blo.

To answer Javier's question, yes, that's what I meant; let's say I find a woman I really, really love and want to spend my life with, the physical attractions for men will seem rather inconsequential at that point. I guess I can say something like that because, to date, I haven't felt as deep a longing for men as someone like Raal has stated in some of his posts -- I don't really find much emotional fulfillment with another guy; they suck cock pretty well, but that's about as deep as it goes.

Some members may recall hearing mention of my ex-boyfriend. So that relationship fizzled... doesn't mean I'm utterly turned off to relationships with men again, but now that that "curiosity" has been fulfilled, I'm not dying to do it all again, you know? (It wasn't a thrill, and though the fact may color my perception, it doesn't completely capture it.)

Something I wanted to add (and maybe I was beaten to it), it's increasingly hard to get bi acceptance from the gay community because it seems as if those individuals automatically assume that "bi" is nothing more than a stepping stone, thus reiterating the polarity (and not the continuum) of sexuality. "Bi" is a safety net; "bi" can allow someone heterosexual privilege; "bi" isn't as harsh as "fag, queer, homo, fairy, etc."; but "bi" is probably the most misunderstood of the three sexual camps, allows for the least personal attention (because we've all got our own spins on our sexuality), garners significant criticism, permits the public to decry us because we're spreading STDs and AIDS from the homosexual "community" to the heterosexual "community" (talk about misinformed!). In short, it really sucks to be bi, public about it, and as sympathetic an educator, because it's hard to crack closed-minds.

Like I said, I might expect such closedmindedness from uneducated and socially inhibited straight (men)s; they hardly get anything that doesn't involve getting a dick rammed hard into a vagina. [Just kidding! ] When I was 18 and made gay friends in college only to have them whip back at me for being a fence-straddler, ah, it was then that I got the reality check.

Nowadays, I can be an educator online at least because this communication is a little more interpersonal and I can always ignore people who start shooting back belligerantly. But you don't get that comfort in real life; it's pretty damn scary, especially if you can't gauge someone's genuine interest or piqued curiosity in something that makes me incredibly individual from the good lot of people.

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

So, with all that said... (Phew!) I ask... a bunch of questions...

It seems as if, at least on the gay side, that bisexuality is "delegitimized" because, as part of building up the sociocultural awareness on what it means to be gay in Western society, an inevitable part of that is the "gauntlet" of taunting, teasing, the names, the misinformed stereotypes, fagness. Gays that grow up in such an environment must develop tough skins, in a way bisexuals may not have to because, when we're with the opposite sex, we can "pass" and not face such criticism.

So, is that it? An accumulation of rage, envy, and sorrow at a bisexual's opportunity to have a legitimate relationship, whereas gays cannot (assuming "legitimate" involves some sort of public acknowledgment and affection)?

And although it's understandable that bisexuality has some sort of titillation and sensationalism about it -- the thought of threesomes, orgies, the freedom to date either sex -- is that the fault of media that perpetuates a stereotype? or narrow minds, belonging to people who are so keyed into the stereotype that bis are automatically written off instead of heard?

And, if anything, shouldn't bis and gays come together because, no matter how you look at it, both have intense trials and tribulations to overcome in order to feel personal self-acceptance? No wonder conservatives and closet-haters don't think much of us; [link=http://www.gay.com]one sect[/link]'s too busy waving rainbow flags, getting down with techno and leather and assless chaps, flaunting men with shaved smooth bodies and tight lean physiques, and worshipping Margaret Cho, while [link=http://www.bi.org]the other[/link] resembles the Moorlocks of the X-Men series -- driven underground, made to mask themselves, hide, take cover, because there's hardly comfort on either side.

 

[jdoe86]

hey throb, you are right. I see it more of a challenge if the guy is straight. Or if the girl is lez. I think everyone likes a challenge

 

[13788]

throb919: [quote author=DeeBlackthorne link=board=meetgreet;num=1056566246;start=20#36 date=07/02/03 at 10:05:57]So, is that it?  An accumulation of rage, envy, and sorrow at a bisexual's opportunity to have a legitimate relationship, whereas gays cannot...?[/quote]
Is that what all of this seems to boil down to for you? Are we reading the same posts...? I am a gay man. I do not rage against you, I do not envy you, I do not feel sorry for you. You have neither my contempt nor my pity. I--honestly--accept you as you are. I don't want you to be more of one thing than another, don't feel you need to try a little harder to fit one pigeon-hole or another, don't feel you have to carry anybody's banner or march in anybody's parade. Have a legitimate or illegitimate relationship--as works for you. I think that's all I was saying back a few posts to you and Javier. And I have a legitimate relationship, thanks, of < gulp > 20+ years. With a guy. (Met him at 23, by the way--so get busy! ;-) ) Serious, long-term, loving, committed--about as "legit" as it gets (even without the societal "trappings," but that's not anything I particularly want, either--and you won't find me burning my bra over gay marriage, for that matter). I don't seriously think you're saying that you'll have a harder time finding and sustaining a relationship as a bi-guy than I have as a gay-guy, are you...?

I agree that we have way more in common than often shows, could work together more, should work together more, and offer right now that if you do want to take to the street with some banner, I'll hold-up the other end of it. (Feeling the urge to join hands and sing "Kumbaya"...again.)

Tony



(To the sometimes tongue-in-cheek-impaired: It's an expression. I don't have a bra. Never have, never will. Not that there's anything wrong with having a bra...or the breasts to fill 'em! I do have great pecs, though... ;-) )

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

Heh, Tony, you misunderstood me. That was a general question I posed back there; I know you're "good people" as my Mom would say.

You might be the exception to the rule, and I'm sure there are more gay guys out there who feel the same way you do, but I sure as hell haven't really experienced such a reaction. Like I said, the few gay guys I've confided in only shocked me with their rebuttal -- fence-straddler, bi now and gay later, that sort of shit. I guess I'm trying to crack at a bigger than previously imagined walnut of an issue here.

Oh well. Honestly though, there's a hell of a lot of bias that clouds such issues. I'm surprised I'm being naive enough to avoid all the possible cultural conceptions between bis and gays. For instance, gays may not like bisexuals because they aren't clearly 100% interested in men like they -- or they might be but refuse to call themselves gay. Either way, I know I have to take a breather before I assume every gay guy I'm going to come across epitomizes the Queer as Folk image of... what's the name? ...the real gay one, does some fashion stuff, had that old man as his lover, fucked him in an airplane... ya get me?

But yeah, seems like the gay men I have the most proximal experience with (at least in Lexington) are so heavily involved in the "scene" -- too damn intimidating for me, buddy! (And I love to dance and drink and have a good time. It's just not to the groove of techno with a Cosmo in each hand, ya see?)

Yeah. Blanket statement: Not all gay men are like that. Experiential statement: You wanna bet?!