Infidelity

HazelGod

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I don't find her comments judgmental at all.

That's because you're blinded by your own similar piety. It's all over the language of your post here...terms such as bad behavior, excuse, should feel guilty, you have failed. It's completely judgmental, and not the purpose of this discussion at all.

The other hugely telling aspect of your post is the fact that you completely disregarded the OP and avoided answering the actual subject of discussion yourself...your only input was to wag your finger at others who had already responded. I can wag fingers, too, Ms. Teacher. See my gallery for proof.



Monogamy is very natural and very normal. People use the excuse that it's not to excuse their own bad behavior. Animals aren't monogamous but they don't have emotional attachments and ties like humans. A human brain is far more evolved. Let's not in any way put ourselves back in the animal kingdom.

Monogamy is natural? Since when? Was there some massive turnaround in the understanding of evolutionary biology that I missed out on?

I won't even begin to touch the incredible ignorance in your remark about other species not forming emotional bonds. As a teacher, I'd expect you to be more informed and aware. No wonder our kids are falling so far behind the rest of the world in educational standards. Here's a quick refresher, though: Homo sapiens sapiens - kingdom, Animalia. Like it or not, sugarbritches, we're animals. That we are aware of this does not change the fact.


You should feel guilty if it happens. You made vows with your wife, and unless you have an arrangement that you and she can be intimate with others, you have failed.

I don't recall you being witness to our wedding ceremony, so I'm not sure where you get the notion you have the first inkling of what our vows to one another might entail. But thanks for telling me how I should feel...I'll be sure to pay it the same consideration as all the other dogmatic bullshit I heard from the church growing up.
 

Ms.Teacher

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That's because you're blinded by your own similar piety. It's all over the language of your post here...terms such as bad behavior, excuse, should feel guilty, you have failed. It's completely judgmental, and not the purpose of this discussion at all.

Cheating on someone is bad behavior. It's certainly not good behavior. And it should cause guilt if you have any respect for your partner. It is a sign of failure--failure to hold up your end of the bargain.

If you have a son or daughter someday, I would doubt if you would tell either one that it's okay to cheat on their b/f or g/f.

The other hugely telling aspect of your post is the fact that you completely disregarded the OP and avoided answering the actual subject of discussion yourself...your only input was to wag your finger at others who had already responded. I can wag fingers, too, Ms. Teacher. See my gallery for proof.

I did answer the question. My response on whether I would cheat:
“No. To me, a sexual relationship involves two people.” Post# 14


Monogamy is natural? Since when? Was there some massive turnaround in the understanding of evolutionary biology that I missed out on?

It’s always been natural for humans, with the exception of polygamists, cheaters, and swingers.

I won't even begin to touch the incredible ignorance in your remark about other species not forming emotional bonds. As a teacher, I'd expect you to be more informed and aware. No wonder our kids are falling so far behind the rest of the world in educational standards. Here's a quick refresher, though: Homo sapiens sapiens - kingdom, Animalia. Like it or not, sugarbritches, we're animals. That we are aware of this does not change the fact.

There’s sense and common sense. Our human brain is unlike that of animals, although some people make me wonder. :confused: The way some animals bond with one another is an entirely different "animal", so to speak.

I don't recall you being witness to our wedding ceremony, so I'm not sure where you get the notion you have the first inkling of what our vows to one another might entail. But thanks for telling me how I should feel...I'll be sure to pay it the same consideration as all the other dogmatic bullshit I heard from the church growing up.

No, I was not a witness to your wedding ceremony, but it’s understood when a couple gets married it’s just the two of them sexually, that is.

If other arrangements are made, that’s a different matter entirely. Nobody said you and your wife can’t have an open relationship. Of course you should feel bad if you cheated. That is, if you have a conscience.

You took offense and picked apart everything I said, except my comment:
“I'm sure you'd be heartbroken if you found out she cheated on you.”

I wonder why? You must think you're beyond that, a Mr. Terrific of sorts who can get away with everything, and whose wife is the obedient Mrs. who would never do such a dirty thing. Sir, women have been known to go behind their partner’s back. This is not just a guy thing.
 

HazelGod

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Ugh...narrow-minded judgmental people like you absolutely turn my stomach.

I can totally see why people like you get cheated on...had I been stupid enough to get involved with your ilk in the first place, I'd absolutely be thrilled each and every time I stuck it in someone else.

One more time, for the hard of understanding: the purpose of this topic is a discussion of WHY infidelity does or might occur...not WHETHER it's good/bad/right/wrong/etc. So take your pious condescension and go fuck yourself.
 

got_lost

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Yowza!!!

We do like a good argument round here, don't we!!!

But just for the record, I'm siding with HazelGod on this one!

So tempting as it is, to pass this thread by and not stick my neck out, I'm going to be brave, bite the bullet and offer my opinion, for me, based on my current situation

I have never cheated in a LTR or when engaged because it was easier for me to transition to friends when it no longer worked rather than prolong the pain of basic incompatibility.

If I married and the spouse withheld sex or we grew to be sexually incompatible - I would have sex with other people. As I do not lie, he would know and be fully informed about any partners.

He would have the option to leave if he wanted, he could have sex with others if desired, but I do not believe infidelity or outside sexual encounters are enough reason to leave a good marriage/relationship. Certainly on my end infidelity would not irretrievably break the trust, love, or respect I'd hold for the mate.

I have been married for almost 20 years.
We have not had sex for at least the last 14 1/2 and the 3 years prior to that it had been pretty dire.

15 years ago I decided to stay with him, knowing there would be no sex, because he was the one I wanted to be with in all other ways.

However, now, I am struggling terribly with the whole 'no sex' thing and am seriously considering infidelity. (To this day, I have so far remained 'faithful').

So yes, I am seriously considering cheating.
No, I don't believe I will feel guilty for it.
No, at this point, I do not believe I shall be honest and tell him about it either. Though that might well change.

I actually wonder if he thinks I have already cheated on him.
He knows I have had more than ample opportunity.
He's never asked and I actually wonder if he'd prefer not to know.

Flame me now! :redface:
 

D_Ivana Dickenside

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i've never cheated in a relationship because i've been cheated on before. i would hope that i'll never cheat on a future relationship too. however, i don't know what the future holds for me, and i won't say i'll never cheat because i can't promise that. i just *hope* that i don't.

EDIT: another thing i needed to add is my opinion on the whole cheating topic in general.

i honestly believe that if a person is going to cheat on their S.O., that person should just stay single, or end the relationship before proceeding relations with another individual. when someone cheats, it's never resulted in anything good anyways. everything simply goes downhill from there.

this is one of the reasons i choose to stay single because i don't have to remain faithful to anyone. it probably sounds selfish, but i don't care since i don't have to answer to anyone except myself.
 

ItsSubjective

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Cheating on someone is bad behavior. It's certainly not good behavior. And it should cause guilt if you have any respect for your partner. It is a sign of failure--failure to hold up your end of the bargain.

True, monogomy is often a bargain between two people. There is usually a lot more than just sexual fidelity included in that bargain. I think it is often the case that both sides are guilty of failing to uphold some end of the deal when sexual infidelity occurs.

It sucks to be cheated on, but it also sucks to be emotionally abused, neglected, or be let down in any number of other ways. Most of these types of failures aren't as obvious to an outside observer, so it tends to be the person who did something "visible" that is blamed. Yes, there are one sided cases, but I haven't seen very many.

It isn't the sort of thing were you can easily say which was worse. Things like emotional abuse tend to be far more damaging to the psyche than physical. Which is worse? You'd probably get different answers depending on who you ask and even the degrees of abuse.
 

snoozan

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Monogamy is very natural and very normal.


It is? Then why is it that it's so difficult to stay monogamous in long relationships for most people? I found my thoughts and desires strayed least when I was pregnant and for about a year after my son was born. It was strange-- I had no desire to even look at other men, which I've always done. I've wondered many times if that's got some sort of evolutionary basis.

You should feel guilty if it happens. You made vows with your wife, and unless you have an arrangement that you and she can be intimate with others, you have failed. I'm sure you'd be heartbroken if you found out she cheated on you.
I'm going to come clean here and say that I cheated on my husband by having sex with another man while we were married. The reason I did it was because I was having some really serious personal issues and with finding myself married at 22. I was young, and I was drunk, and it happened. I don't feel guilty for what I did-- I feel guilty for hurting my husband, if that kind of distinction can be made. The actual act itself was fun and it sated something in me and I felt much more able to deal with our marriage afterwards. I'm not saying it was a good thing-- it wasn't.

What I do wonder is why we treat such one-time flings so seriously-- there was a huge disconnect for me over how little it meant to me in the end and how badly what I did hurt my husband. There was no emotional attachment in it for me, and when it was done, it was done. I probably would feel the same way as her did if it were opposite, even if he assured me, as I did him, that it wasn't because of some inadequacy on my part.

I also think there are different kinds of infidelity and some are worse than others. I think any affair, either physical, emotional, or both are worse than a fling. A long, drawn out affair that drains time, money, and emotion from a couple or family seems a lot worse morally and in effect than something not as serious or long-lived. I also believe that emotional affairs that stop just short of getting physical are worse than a one time thing or a short fling. I'd much rather my husband sleep with someone while he was away on vacation than have a woman that he called every night, confided in, got all starry eyed and wistful about, and spent a lot of time away from the family with.

In the end, we got over my infidelity and moved on. It happened. It didn't destroy us, and it shouldn't have. It was a drunken lapse in self control on my part. I don't think we could survive another or a string of things like that, though.

In some ways I think having an open(er) relationship might work better for me, but because of my personality and my husband's, it may be a Pandora's box. At this point, we're doing really well, and I don't want to fuck that up. It still doesn't mean I don't want to get in various peoples' pants and that my husband doesn't. We talk about this a lot, even so much as my husband telling me about this hot chick he saw on the train he would nail. With these conversations we always end up reaffirming our commitment to each other and making the conscious decision together that it's not worth risking what we have together.

Interestingly, a lot of people think pornography is cheating, and even more think cybersex is. Infidelity is something that has to be determined between people in a relationship, no one else. I like DC_DEEPs definition.


If I had wanted to throw down the gauntlet I would have done it in a PM, not in a thread so your cyberbf could attack me too. :cool:

Dragonfly better step off, after HazelGod got to feel my titties LIVE and IN PERSON, he's all mine. Nah, he's a little cyberwhore, I should know better than that.
 

ManlyBanisters

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Monogamy is very natural and very normal. People use the excuse that it's not to excuse their own bad behavior. Animals aren't monogamous but they don't have emotional attachments and ties like humans. A human brain is far more evolved. Let's not in any way put ourselves back in the animal kingdom.

Actually - I don't believe you are right - monogomy has become what is expected of us and is almost completely 'nurture' in humans. I will also add that I believe most people, without even thinking about it, expect monogomous behaviour from their partners without ever having discussed it. And yet there is so much infidelity that that expectation seems somewhat foolish as the default, doesn't it?


Monogamy is natural? Since when? Was there some massive turnaround in the understanding of evolutionary biology that I missed out on?

I won't even begin to touch the incredible ignorance in your remark about other species not forming emotional bonds.

I have to agree with HG here - both on humans and animals. There are some animals that do mate for life and there are many animals that form emotional bonds with their mate.

I googled [primates "mate for life"] and this was the first hit - might make interesting reading for you, Ms.Teacher.

It’s always been natural for humans, with the exception of polygamists, cheaters, and swingers.
*snip*
No, I was not a witness to your wedding ceremony, but it’s understood when a couple gets married it’s just the two of them sexually, that is.

If other arrangements are made, that’s a different matter entirely. Nobody said you and your wife can’t have an open relationship. Of course you should feel bad if you cheated. That is, if you have a conscience.

Jesus H Corbett - climb down from the moral high ground, love, I can see up your skirt. :rolleyes:

So take your pious condescension and go fuck yourself.

*buys HG a beer*

Now back to the OP

I thought long and hard before coming into this thread. I've only really done one proper, grown-up, meant-to-be-monogomous LTR - I effectively ended it by cheating. Though, in truth, it was more a question of stabbing the corpse to make sure it was dead. Most of my relationships before that were open or casual or not very long :rolleyes: - indeed at the start of that relationship I treated it the same and because I was never explicitly asked to be faithful I wasn't. Once I realised monogomy was expected I made a conscious decision that that was how I'd play it. And I did - for over a decade. I won't go in to the very long and doubtless boring details of the problems that killed the marriage - but it was dead and yet there we were.

So to answer the questions of the OP directly:
Would you cheat on a spouse/partner/LTR? Well the word 'would' makes that hard for me to answer. In the past, yes I guess so. In the future, no - I'd like to think I'm far more self aware now and that I'd deal with the real issues directly before it ever came to a point where I'd turn to someone else.
What are the circumstances that would made it happen? Again, speaking of the past, I had gotten myself trapped - speaking for the future I don't intend to get trapped again.
If you have, how did you justify the contact? There is no justification really. I didn't love my husband anymore - I should have said that and walked, instead I was cowardly.

I know I can do monogamy because I had a monogamous relationship for over a decade - I also know that it is something I made a conscious decision to uphold, and then to break, and that when I loved him it was easy to uphold. Another thing I am aware of is that it is utterly foolish to expect monogamous fidelity from a partner and not to practise the same. I expect (even require?) monogamous fidelty and I would not be happy in an open relationship - therefore, if I am asking for that as a right it is my duty to stay within those same confines. That's how I choose to be - fortunately that's also how my partner chooses to be. I don't feel the need to judge others that don't choose that kind of relationship any more than I feel the need to judge people who take sugar in their coffee when I don't.
 

HazelGod

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I don't feel the need to judge others that don't choose that kind of relationship any more than I feel the need to judge people who take sugar in their coffee when I don't.

Careful...that parallel only goes so far. I'm pretty much live-and-let-live with most things, but people who adulterate a single-malt with club soda should be tarred, feathered, and pilloried. :yup:
 

vince

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In seventeen years of common-law marriage I never cheated on my wife. Even during the last two years when we had no sex at all. I'm really proud of myself for not straying during that bad period, even though there are always ample opportunities for sex in this world.

I even had a moral dilemma about thinking about other people while masturbating! Is it an unfaithful act to fantasize about sex with a person other than your husband or wife while rubbing one out? (I was a bit fucked up at the time) I think that for some the answer could be yes. I'd like to hear NJ's or Ms. Teacher's answer. For me I figured- "I'm only human for christsakes" and got over it.

At the moment I have sexual relations with two friends (women). One knows about the other (she doesn't care) and the other doesn't. I feel a wee bit guilty about it, but we have made no promises of exclusivity. I am pretty sure she would feel hurt, so I have just been keeping it under wraps to spare her feelings. I have no intention of settling down with either of them, so I don't feel bound by any vow of monogamy. I would like to come clean, but I am not going to tell her unless she asks. I could not lie about it.

Oh, I should say both women know I am a bisexual man. The first one knows that when the right type of guy comes along, I do go for it. The second one would have a problem with it I think.

Sometimes I wish I was married again. It's much less complicated! :rolleyes:
 

The Dragon

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Monogamy is very natural and very normal. People use the excuse that it's not to excuse their own bad behavior. Animals aren't monogamous but they don't have emotional attachments and ties like humans. A human brain is far more evolved. Let's not in any way put ourselves back in the animal kingdom.




Sorry to burst you bubble Ms.Teacher Ducky, but monogamy is not so natural or normal.
I'm sure the islamic nations, African and most indigionous tribes would be thrilled at your comment about the animal kingdom and being evolved.
 

ManlyBanisters

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Sorry to burst you bubble Ms.Teacher Ducky, but monogamy is not so natural or normal.
I'm sure the islamic nations, African and most indigionous tribes would be thrilled at your comment about the animal kingdom and being evolved.

Indigenous to where? :confused:

Come now DF - polygamy and promiscuity (in the natural history sense of the terms) are far more widely practised than that. (Although essentially you and I are in agreement, for once, which is nice :smile:)
 

Phil Ayesho

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Well... As to the absolutism of NJQT....

I don't think anyone who has not been in a 15 year or longer committed relationship can actually even answer the question posed.

I mean... they can tell you what they "believe" they will do... but until they have had the relationship that has lasted long enough to experience the ennui and resentment that often sets in in a long term relationship...
they really are just talking out their ass.

I could even venture to suggest that if a person has never HAD a long term relationship... that could well be the result of being such an absolutist in demanding others live up to some impossible standard... that no one could possibly "qualify" for a long term relationship with them.


I think serial infidelity is wrong no matter how you look at it.

If you can't even TRY to keep a promise... don't make any.

But the question boils down to who is breaking what promise.

For example... when a wife promises to cleave only unto her husband... she is promising to cleave...

IF she refuses to have sex with him... if she no longer finds him in the least attractive... or has such resentment she can not stand him, or, perhaps simply hates sex... and cuts him off...

Well, then she has broken HER vows... she has breached her part of the contract....

Under those circumstances, her demanding that he remain faithful is unreasonable...
She is not asking him to only have sex with her... their original contract... she is asking him to never have sex again as long as he lives...

I ask you... if that had been in the original wedding vows... would he have married her?


People often do not realize when they are demanding something unreasonable.

Back in the day there was a double standard... a woman would turn a blind eye to her husband's discrete philandering in return for him never leaving her.

IF you think about it... it makes sense... If she doesn't want to have sex anymore... but she does want him to keep providing for her what she wants... she has to re-negotiate so that he can get what he wants by some other means...

Its not passsionately romantic... but what sexless marriage ever is?


By the same token... how would a woman react to a man who no longer wants to touch her, when clearly his physical intimacy was part of their original bargain?


I think the kind of guy who is out there justing screwing everything he can for the sport of it is wrong...


But a man looking for a woman to treat him with affection and desire... because his wife is so resentful she can not manage to be kind to him....

Or a woman whose husband is cold and distant and shows no passion for her at all...

I can not judge these people harshly...

Far too often, infidelity is not what breaks the contract between partners.... its the result of a contract already shattered thru inattention and resentment.

You can avoid a lot of this thru simply looking at any relationship as a negotiation...

If you are wanting to stray... perhaps it is time to get out of the marriage you are in...

But I knew of an older couple where the wife was infirm and could not have sex anymore....
Her husband cared for her immensely... nursed her and fed her and bathed her... applied poultices... and generally was there for her every need for the twelve years she was bed-ridden...

And he had a widow who he visited once a week for the physical comforts his wife could no longer provide.

This man, my grandfather, was a wonderful man... He was as important to that widow's last decade of life as he was was devoted to his wife.

I ask you... is that infidelity?

Or was it the best way he could find to remain truly faithful in every sense that mattered to his wife?


There are assholes of both genders out their who are totally self absorbed and screw around just because they can...

But most folks are doing the best that they can.

And if your partner is a good person... and is straying from the marriage bed... don't kid yourself... you know exactly why...

Maybe its the way you make them beg for your touch... Maybe its the way you treat their needs as repulsive...

Maybe its your total lack of passion, regard or respect for them...

In a relationship between good people with good intentions...Its not infidelity that breaks you up...

Its the actions, and lack of actions, in other areas that create the breach.


Infidelity is often just a symptom.
 

HazelGod

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You know, Phil, you say a lot of wise things around here, and I tend to agree with what you just posted...but I really wish you wouldn't begin your remarks with things like this:

I don't think anyone who has not been in a 15 year or longer committed relationship can actually even answer the question posed.

I mean... they can tell you what they "believe" they will do... but until they have had the relationship that has lasted long enough to experience the ennui and resentment that often sets in in a long term relationship...
they really are just talking out their ass.


You're essentially telling the vast majority of people here that their opinions are invalid and they're stupid for believing otherwise, simply because they don't stand up to some completely arbitrary 15-year yardstick that you've pulled out of your own ass.

It comes across as really pompous and condescending...which doesn't really jive with the tone of the rest of your message, so it's a really poor introduction for what you had to say. Just state your piece and let the audience decide on its merits.
 

Ethyl

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How does one define cheating?

I cheated on my second husband. Deliberately and with his knowledge. He was having the first of two emotional attachments with a female study partner (later with a co-worker) and I repeatedly asked him to invite her to our house. He refused. He began spending more evenings with her, the two-hour sessions became three or four, and when I asked him when I would get to meet her, he replied "I don't want you to meet her".

He insisted they were not having an affair but still did not want me to have any contact with her. Finally I told him I would feel more comfortable if he chose another study partner given the circumstances. He refused and said I had no reason not to trust him. Being very young and brash with a vindictive streak, I made it clear I would be bedding another man that night and would be home when I was finished. That's exactly what I did. When I came home I gave details of that evening's event. He became self-righteous, told his family, and I became a pariah for at least two years. He was convinced that my one night stand was much worse than his emotional attachment to his study partner.

That was the only time I slept with anyone else during our marriage. Right away I knew my reaction was juvenile but I was so hurt, frustrated and angry that I lashed out in a way I knew his pious nature and ego would be affected. I swore never to do that again. He, however, went on to have yet another emotional affair with a co-worker and will be marrying her this year.

None of this would've taken place had we talked about our expectations. I wish we had, it would've saved us both a lot of pain. I grow weary of reading how there are no grey areas in cheating and that you "just know" if you're cheating. I'm convinced that cheating is a form of lying. Lying can be prevented if you insist upon total honesty and open communication about your expectations in a relationship. We behaved irresponsibly by not discussing ours and had we done so early on, I doubt we would've married.

I regret how I handled the situation. I should've packed my stuff and walked out instead of retaliating in poor fashion. I'm fortunate that my partner believes i've risen above my past and am doing everything in my power to be a better person every day-he trusts me absolute. I love him for that.

Relationships give us the opportunity to grow as individuals. We either take that opportunity seriously or we waste it.
 

Ethyl

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Well... As to the absolutism of NJQT....

I don't think anyone who has not been in a 15 year or longer committed relationship can actually even answer the question posed.
<snipped for brevity and bandwidth's sake>
I agree with HG. It's insulting to impose your own timeframe on others' relationship problems. Like individuals, every relationship is unique.
 

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You're essentially telling the vast majority of people here that their opinions are invalid and they're stupid for believing otherwise, simply because they don't stand up to some completely arbitrary 15-year yardstick that you've pulled out of your own ass.
I think it was phrased incorrectly (I'd like to think so, anyway). The way I would put it is that one cannot accurately predict what they will do in a hypothetical scenario. It is very common for people to say that they will simply kick their spouse out if they discovered them cheating, and end the marriage. But the longer a relationship goes, they are more likely to not give up.

It's also like someone saying, 'if I ever get on a rollercoaster I'm going to put my hands up the whole way!' and then finding out after the first dip that their body is too scared to allow them to do that. Until you actually go through with it, your predictions and promises are just words.
 

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I admit that in the past I have had sex with married men.
I don't feel guilty about it.
Why?
Because I was single, I wasn't the one who cheated.
The guilt wasn't mine to bear.
How he justified the contact or the fall out was his issue.