Not helping themselves.

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SpeedoGuy: I read your whole story and I still don't buy it. I've seen lots of potentially violent people claim they never made any threats while their very demeanor and physical presence said completely otherwise.

SG
 
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jerkin4-10: i dont care if you buy it or not zipperhead...you have no idea who i am...none all...and it shows YOUR lack of imagination to ASSUME that...oooh hes a bully...making the assumption...instead of looking at the results...so go to another thread and bother someone else...
 
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jerkin4-10: cold water just makes me angry...you wouldnt like me when im angry......LOL... :D
 
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sammygirly: "Humans make me angry!"
mtmagstandeet.jpg
 
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gigantikok: Wow, I can't believe I missed this thread.

I have some initial comments in regards to some of the topics that were covered during the span of this topic:

Social Programs (Welfare)- All I am going to say in regards to this is that there is a reason why our nation is billions of dollars in debt. Know why? Has to do with the many losers that take advantage of the welfare system and other social programs and waste OUR tax dollars. Maybe these "programs" are less neccessary than one would think.

America Bashing- Jerkin had it right when he said, "Just because you can DO something, doesn't make it right". I get tired of the insessant whining and complaining I hear in regards to this nation and the way it is being run. We have the freedom to do it, but come on people. There is a reason why you have a college education, a reason why you own a computer and why you are able to log onto the internet and visit this site everyday. It definately has to do with being fortunate enough to be an American citizen. Most of the rest of the world doesn't come close to having the privaleges you do. Sure there are flaws in the system, but you haven't seen FLAWS till you have lived outside of this country. To everyone that complains, try living in Peru or Africa (like I did) and see how much you appriciate this country when you come back.
 
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longtimelurker: [quote author=gigantikok link=board=99;num=1067118189;start=40#46 date=11/02/03 at 02:23:04]  Most of the rest of the world doesn't come close to having the privaleges you do.  Sure there are flaws in the system, but you haven't seen FLAWS till you have lived outside of this country.  To everyone that complains, try living in Peru or Africa (like I did) and see how much you appriciate this country when you come back.[/quote]

Well that's more due to it being 1st world vs. 2nd/3rd and the increased money that comes with it.

I mean, I've been able to enjoy a 6th form and university education here without my parents having to save from my birth to be able to afford it.

Other than that - I seem to recall reading on a previous thread that your deficit has increased in Republican administrations and reduced during Democrat. My experience in Britain is similar - the 18 year Tory rule left us with critically underfunded public services, sky-high interest rates and high inflation and huge public borrowing. Since Labour took over their first budget (if I remember rightly) was in surplus, and Gordon Brown (chancellor) has been able to pay off quite large chunks of our national debt.

Letting debt get out of control (as anyone can tell you) just means that you end up paying more on interest, so you'll just end up with tax revenue going straight to the banks rather than to public spending.

Links:
US Government debt history: http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/crisis/2003/statedebtchart.htm

US presidents listing:
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/history/us/pres/list.shtml

Note the largest rises are in 86-94 and 2001+, the eras of Reagan and the two Bushes.
 
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gigantikok: [quote author=longtimelurker link=board=99;num=1067118189;start=40#47 date=11/02/03 at 03:55:40]Note the largest rises are in 86-94 and 2001+, the eras of Reagan and the two Bushes.[/quote]
That's a bit unfair, LTL.  You have to take into account that it is a steady rise.  It isn't like it rose ridiculous amounts during the Republican administrations and sank enormously during Democrat rule.  It might have gone down momentarily during the first part of Clinton's presidency, but there can be SO many different factors that could determine why.  It isn't always the administration running the country that has a hand in the rise or fall of the defecit.  Anyway, it started rising again during Clinton's presidency.

Oh, and you also have to take inflation and changing times into account as well.
 
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longtimelurker: [quote author=gigantikok link=board=99;num=1067118189;start=40#48 date=11/02/03 at 04:11:06]
That's a bit unfair, LTL.  You have to take into account that it is a steady rise.  It isn't like it rose ridiculous amounts during the Republican administrations and sank enormously during Democrat rule.  It might have gone down momentarily during the first part of Clinton's presidency, but there can be SO many different factors that could determine why.  It isn't always the administration running the country that has a hand in the rise or fall of the defecit.  Anyway, it started rising again during Clinton's presidency.

Oh, and you also have to take inflation and changing times into account as well.[/quote]

I will admit that there may well be underlying factors that are outwith the respective administrations control, but then for the same thing to have occurred here with our respective right and left governments at different times I find a little suspect. When unpredictable external effects come into play then you're left with hunting correlations.

As for the rediculous amounts, there are strong upwards kinks in 86 and 01 - the rate suddenly starts rising at almost 50% over previous levels in 83-4 until it is finally brought back into line in early 90s. As for 01-02 the rate of increase is massive - the previous 3 years of deficit increase were $38bn, $69bn and $15bn - after 2001 we have $106bn and $151bn.

Also, is it another lucky chance that Javier mentioned before that the Dutch are one of the best-behaved in terms of financial management in the EU? They also tend to be very left-oriented compared to most of us. I don't rule out that it could be mere chance, but there definately seems to be a trend...
 
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SpeedoGuy: [quote author=jerkin4-10 link=board=99;num=1067118189;start=40#41 date=10/31/03 at 21:50:50]i dont care if you buy it or not zipperhead...
...so go to another thread and bother someone else...[/quote]

When I see name calling becoming a part of a thread I become disappointed because I want the level of discussion to stay above that kind of thing.

SG
 
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aj2181: [quote author=longtimelurker link=board=99;num=1067118189;start=40#49 date=11/02/03 at 04:36:41]

I will admit that there may well be underlying factors that are outwith the respective administrations control, but then for the same thing to have occurred here with our respective right and left governments at different times I find a little suspect.

As for the rediculous amounts, there are strong upwards kinks in 86 and 01 - the rate suddenly starts rising at almost 50% over previous levels in 83-4 until it is finally brought back into line in early 90s. As for 01-02 the rate of increase is massive - the previous 3 years of deficit increase were $38bn, $69bn and $15bn - after 2001 we have $106bn and $151bn.

[/quote]

Hey I'm glad you found the numbers LTL it seems to me they correspond to your point perfectly.

I do agree tho that there are other factors invovled in the performance of the economy. However, the person who's President catches the blame wether its a sluggish economy or a boomin economy....thats just the way it is.

I saw the other day that there are encouraging signs that the hard times may be comming to a close. Thats something we can all agree on....its fantastic. I hate that its happening with Bush in office, but I welcome it anyway.

Wow I'm impressed at how this thread has grown. I just thought I'd sit back and watch the fireworks.

The welfare state is here to stay. I think anyone who is left leaning in the slightest would defend the welfare state from all opponents. On the contrary I think the programs are very necessary and serve a good purpose. I do, however, know that they are abused. After so long any and all programs need to have the dust bunnies swept out. Reform is the right way to go, but you can not deny that there are numerous people in this country who arent paid a living wage. If people do not make enough money to buy food, housing, transportation, etc. what else are they supposed to do. Get another job??? If thats the case then who would take care of their kids?
Plain and simple, there are those in society, all societies, who need help to live in a manner that all human beings deserve. Not a twenty room mansion, but a decent house, with decent food etc. Its unacceptable that a family of four may not be able to feed their children three meals a day. It is unacceptable that seniors have to go hungry in order to buy their medication. If we are a great nation then poverty is the blight that will wither it away.

Now then.....its seems like there is an implication that the left is not as 'in love' with or apreciative enough of the United States and the freedoms we have. There isn't anything further from the truth. We know that it is by virtue of the Constitution that I'm able to be here and can regale you with my leftist point of view. The left ,as well as the right, loves this country. We wouldn't find as much fault with Bush if we didnt care about the nation. I know that if I didnt love this country I wouldn't have a flag on my desk or pictures of Washington, Adams, Jefferson, and Jackson on my wall. To say that left leaning people do not know or apreciate the freedoms we have is rediculous.

Comming down from the soap box now.
 
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Tender: [quote author=SpeedoGuy link=board=99;num=1067118189;start=40#50 date=11/02/03 at 10:32:26]

When I see name calling becoming a part of a thread I become disappointed because I want the level of discussion to stay above that kind of thing.

SG[/quote]

ditto here as well.
::)
Tender
 
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7x6andchg: [grabs the soapbox from AJ]

Another thing, too, might be to look into what programs are truly necessary and what programs are no longer necessary...

As an example...it is now November and the "Keep Warm" rule is in effect in Wisconsin. My heat can not be shut off from October 15 - April 15. Keeping in mind that I do pay my bills ($1.30/gal for fuel oil), I think this is an example of a program that works. If you can prove you do not have the money to pay the heating bill, you don't pay it....and a basic human need is kept in check...

Programs we don't need? Well...we wouldn't need food stamps if minimum wage were higher...couldn't we move the money spent on WIC and AFDC to cushion the blow of raising the minimum wage to $11 an hour, which is a liveable wage? Perhaps even provide child care at a reduced cost so people wouldn't end up spending $400 of the $500 they earn weekly on that?

There are programs where the welfare state does work. Our duty, through our elected officials, is to find out which ones do, and don't...and continue the ones that do. I will gladly pay for those.

Oh - and LTL - don't even get me started on the state of public post-secondary education in this country....and I live in a state with one of the best and cheapest (relatively) university systems in the country. It's still expensive and requires savings from the birth of the child.

7x6&C
 
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Tender: ok i liked what Paul had to say there.
so ill chime in some more about yours truely,
and probably divulge more than i should...

my SB makes about 14$ an hour now.
we have 3 kids, one disabled, and 2 adopted at the cost of $38,000, paid for by a bank loan we will pay on *forever*.

now when little man was born we didnt make nearly 14 an hour. we barely qualified for WIC, which we NEEDED because he had to have a special formula which he drank for about 2 yrs that cost aprox 300$ month.

zoom up to the present-- we applied for medicaid and were denied because we made about 10$ or so week too much. (whatever secret formula they use is still a mystery to me, and seems to change everytime i go in...lol)
but, figure that his speech and OT cost 60$ an hour @ 6 hrs each week. well you do the math, its well more than half of our check for petes sake. so SB has to go to his supervisor and explain this, and reduce his hours at work, so our boy can get medicaid.

now lets consider this as well.
we paid 19,000 for our youngest girl.
the state of MO allows a 10,000 tax credit.
anyone mind you that could even USE a credit such as that, doesnt even need it lol.
so the state allows poor folk like us to sell the credit for 75 % of its value.
we sell the credit for 7,500$. the person who buys it can then deduct 10,000$ from their tax.
now, when i go to the SSA office to report the sale, i am told that it counts as income. HELLO?? since when does 19,000$ subtract 7,500$ equal profit??
(by the way, we were later informed by MO that the "pot" was broke, so the credit never panned out)

as far as his disability goes, he has a sister, who counts as a dependant. the other sister whos adoption is not yet finalized doesnt count. um ok but she has been placed in our home for the purpose of adoption, and is a permanent US resident. If she were born to us, she would count from day one. but since she doesnt yet have our last name, she obviously doesnt need to eat.
We have guardianship of her as well.

so then, after her finalization, she still doesnt count, because she is not a US citizen. ok come on morons, i thought thats what the US resident card took care of, as well as the adoption decree. It is now law that any foreign born child adopted in the US by a US citizen is automatically a citizen. but NoOoO. I have to go pay a $50 fee to get a passport in order to prove her citizenship. guess what?? youre gonna love this.
i have to prove shes a citizen to get the passport!!
how's that you say? with my adoption decree.
::)
a bunch of crap. thats what it is.

ok now im thinking, if "uncle Sam" knew his own laws,
and if programs were based on individual circumstances instead of cookie cutter one size fits all programs, wed all be better off.

Then theres my bro. well he IS poor. wont work. so he qualifies for every help program there is.
professional BUM.
while my SB works himself to death to keep things together....
???
Tender
 
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longtimelurker: This is why everyone needs more means-testing.

There are far too many schemes that are all-or-nothing. I mean, it's rediculous that the scheme you mentioned required your husband to have to reduce his hours to make himself better off, Tender (but then I guess you know that!).

What's the big problem with saying that if you have under a certain amount of income you pay, say, 25% of cost then for each $1 you earn over that you get 25c less benefit? We have exactly the same problems here, but I think some of them are starting to be sorted out.

I guess a big problem with that is the forms, but what I never get is why there isn't just one big form that contains everything and then all government departments share that. I mean, how long have we had computers for now? It can't be that difficult, surely?
 
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SpeedoGuy: Tender:

My wife and I are looking into adoption. I am just floored at the costs the adoption agencies are asking for. I am also dismayed by the percentage of infants up for adoption who have been exposed to drugs, alcohol or nicotine while in utero. Its utterly depressing. My hat is off to you for your commitment to the process.

ltl and Tender:

I think the pro-rated assistance idea is a good one.

SG
 
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longtimelurker: SG,

Have you ever looked at fostering?

I don't know the situation over there, but here the foster parents receive state funding to help look after the children.

Unfortunately you don't get a say in when you get the child or when they are moved on, but you will be helping some very hard done-by young kids.
 
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tracksuitboy: [quote author=jerkin4-10 link=board=99;num=1067118189;start=0#17 date=10/27/03 at 06:30:54]i promised myself not to get into this this morning...my BP was up 20 points yesterday
[/quote]

I'm not surprised you're blood pressure is up. I've just started reading this thread and I don't think I've ever read such biased, right-wing rantiing. If ever someone needed Valium, it's you. Calm down my friend.
 
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tracksuitboy: [quote author=longtimelurker link=board=99;num=1067118189;start=40#49 date=11/02/03 at 04:36:41]
As for 01-02 the rate of increase is massive - the previous 3 years of deficit increase were $38bn, $69bn and $15bn - after 2001 we have $106bn and $151bn.
[/quote]

Wait until you see the budget deficits for 04, 05 & 06.  The cost of the Iraq war and it's aftermath (specifically it's aftermath) is going to make the previous deficits look like a drop in the ocean.