On Being "Men"

[BobLeeSwagger]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Mar 8 2005, 05:42 AM
I've always said that men have choices that women do not, and one is to walk away from an unwanted pregnacy. (Let a woman try that&#33

[post=289195]Quoted post[/post]​

As a former worker for a county child support agency, I agree wholeheartedly that many problems are the result of men neglecting their children. But women DO have a way of walking away from an unwanted pregnancy. It's called abortion, and women do it quite often. Of course, this isn't quite comparable. But imagine if the activists out there put half the effort into enforcing child support laws as they do fighting abortion. Families could actually be, uh, better off!

One thing that amuses me is organizations like the Promise Keepers, using religion to get men to re-commit to their own families. I suppose that anything that gets someone's life back on track is a good thing, but I only know one guy personally who's involved with them. And he's a total dumbshit.

 

[BobLeeSwagger]

Now that I think about it, I really don't see a "lack of masculinity" problem out there. Everywhere I look, I see guys driving jacked-up pickups, downing hot wings, guzzling beer, buying Harleys to regain their youth, hopelessly devoted to sports teams, and watching porn. And women are lapping up these guys. Has my ignorance of fashion and entertainment media blinded me to some trend I'm not aware of?

I'm probably not considered a metrosexual. But if a woman can wear pants, can't a guy use hair care products? These seem like tinkering with the margins to me, not some movement that we're being swept up in. By no means am I discounting your view, Kinkguy, but my experience just doesn't make me feel that.

 

[naughty]

HI Aloofman,

Promise Keepers is a wonderful organization. It was founded by a college football coach after his only daughter found herself in the position of having to deal with an unplanned pregnancy by herself (The father being one of his players) I know a number of fabulous men who have gone and it has been a life changing experience for them. There are others for whom it may take a bit longer for the light to go on. I know one person in particular who has gone who would cause me to feel the same way you do. But that is his issue and it is not the fault of pormise keepers. They can only put the information and ideas out there for men to grasp. But they can not drag anyone kicking and screaming down the road to responsible living.

Naughty

 

[Max]

My twopenceworth on this delicate but very important subject:

There are good things about the less rigid approach to the understanding of masculinity and femininity we have these days: I have far more freedom than my father ever did to dress as I wish, to interpret my role as father, husband and man as I wish, etc etc .. and my sons have even more freedom than me. In the same way my daughter has the freedom not to follow the narrowly defined script previous generations of girls had set out for them.

BUT: Uncertainties over roles and unrealistic romanticised expectations of marriage have been part of the explanation of a soaring divorce rate .. we all know how much suffering that has brought with it. I think also western societies have begun to undervalue the virtues of masculinity, as they have been too conscious of its costs. I heard a senior officer in the Met (London police force) saying that the disproportionately male profile of crime, especially among young people, is the flip side of the overwhelmingly masculine risk-taking creative energy and drive that has done so much to shape our society. It struck me as one of the sanest things I'd ever head a policeman say.

IMHO we risk losing our respect for this energy and creativeness by failing to celebrate it as part of what makes men men.

I also agree with dcwrestlefan that many men (not all) need male environments (as we need male friendships and role models) ... whether clubs or pubs or gymns or whatever. A wise woman will not muscle in on this (knowing that she also wants her time with girlfriends without him getting in the way). What are women doing in (male) locker-rooms, anyway?

As JonB said, being equal does not mean being the same.

 

[jonb]

Originally posted by jeepwranglerboi@Mar 8 2005, 02:16 PM
That is very interesting jonb.

You didn't think it was just decoration, did you? When the weather allowed it, we wore just a loin cloth or less when fighting.

I guess that society and the media are starting to place the same requirements on men as they have on women for hundreds of years. Everyone is looking for that perfect image. That universal epitome of beauty. I've actually read a really wonderful book called The Adonis Complex. I've lent it to a friend but as soon as I figure out who the author is I will post it here. I guess the title of the book is pretty self explanatory. Check it out sometime if you're interested.

[post=289311]Quoted post[/post]​

I'll check it out. The whole thing's basically the same as an eating disorder. And we've all heard stories about eating disorders.

 

[SomeGuyOverThere]

Idont think men are becoming less manly, I think we are going back to what we would be if it wasnt for about 1000 years of predjudice against femaninity.

Especiallywhen it comes to bisexuality etc, many ancient cultures very much encouraged homosexual relationships, especially in the military, but the middle ages -> late last century cultures mostly shunned homosexuality bisexuality or any covorting with anyone other than your partner. Then came the hippy movement!

I dont know exactly why it happened but it seems to me that we are travelling full circle, and slowly, but surely sexual openess is coming around again.

I am quite pleased by it really, more freedom from taboos and pointles self restrictions

 

[txquis]

I'm so proud of my LPSG buds....very good points and all well taken and said.
There isnt much I can add, especially after Jana's beautiful post.

One change in men that i actually like, is that I see many of my men friends involved with their children in a way mine wasn't, and many fathers in the 60s/70s werent.

My male friends are also more willing than my Dad's generation, to expess how they feel. I dont see that as not being masculine.
In fact, if my Dad could have expressed his feelings (and he still cant)...i think my life and my brother's and my moms (and perhaps his own) might have been much easier in some ways..

So, i dont think all that has happened is bad.

But, i do see the blurred gender thing, now, and all that other people have brought up.
We are homogonizing gender in the way we are homogonizing our American cities.....all of us are the same.....same WalMart, same Barnes and Noble, same fast food joint.

 

[jonb]

I had no idea the Greeks associated homosexuality with femininity. I knew they associated homosexuality with the military, but does that mean they associated the military with femininity? (Stories of amazon women don't count.)

 

[SomeGuyOverThere]

Originally posted by jonb@Mar 9 2005, 09:49 PM
I had no idea the Greeks associated homosexuality with femininity. I knew they associated homosexuality with the military, but does that mean they associated the military with femininity? (Stories of amazon women don't count.)

[post=289594]Quoted post[/post]​

Sorry, if you were refering to my post I was thinknig more in terms of the modern day association with femaninity - sorry, Im not a very precise speaker. :silly:

 

[13788]

gamma_phi: I don't think men have become feminized. I think we've become sensitized to the needs of our society - and our society says that we need men to take on some of the roles that were once exclusive to women. Being caretakers, cooking/cleaning homes, ACTIVELY participating in raising the children instead of just being the disciplinarians, and managing the home - and still bring home the bacon to keep the home.

It's no secret that there has been some serious crossing of sex roles in the past few decades. But what is it from? Is that society has evolved into its current state, or did we force it into its current state? Either way, it's here, and we need to adapt to our new surroundings in order to survive. That's evolution. And if we don't adapt, it (society) will drastically change again. And what wil it be then? Will women be sole caretakers and breadwinners while the man stays home with the children? Does that make him less of a man if he is not the sole breadwinner, doing those outdated manly deeds? Who's to say what makes a man a man, besides what that man considers himself to be?

So what has this discussion turned to? What is being a man or what is manly? And what//who determines what is manly? All the deeds I do throughout my day are always manly, because that's how I think and feel. I'm not feminized, just sensitized to my needs and the needs of others.

Holla!

 

[jonb]

Yeah, but most of the people I've met who were even somewhat homophobic, before they even said anything about "queers" or "homos", my gaydar was beeping so loud it was driving me insane. On the extreme homophobes, my gaydar was overloaded.

On the gender side of things, though, society will put different expectations on men and women simply because it's one biologically significant means of classifying people. (You need one of each to reproduce. I'd say that's biologically significant, no?) But women have more power than they think; men jump through hoops to get laid.

 

[jeepwranglerboi]

Originally posted by jonb+Mar 9 2005, 09:00 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jonb &#064; Mar 9 2005, 09:00 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-jeepwranglerboi@Mar 8 2005, 02:16 PM
That is very interesting jonb.

You didn&#39;t think it was just decoration, did you? When the weather allowed it, we wore just a loin cloth or less when fighting.

I guess that society and the media are starting to place the same requirements on men as they have on women for hundreds of years. Everyone is looking for that perfect image. That universal epitome of beauty. I&#39;ve actually read a really wonderful book called The Adonis Complex. I&#39;ve lent it to a friend but as soon as I figure out who the author is I will post it here. I guess the title of the book is pretty self explanatory. Check it out sometime if you&#39;re interested.

[post=289311]Quoted post[/post]​

I&#39;ll check it out. The whole thing&#39;s basically the same as an eating disorder. And we&#39;ve all heard stories about eating disorders.

[post=289582]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
No, I didn&#39;t think it was just decoration. I knew that it had to have a meaning. It was just nice to hear an explanation for some of it though. Also, thanks for the mental image. I am envisioning you in a loincloth now with a smile on coquettish grin on your face.

It&#39;s a good book and yes a lot of it is likened to an eating disorder. I found it an interesting read and God knows a lot of it pertained to me and my own personal issues with my perception of my body.

 

[jonb]

:coquettish smile: Or less. I knew you&#39;d like that image.

As for eating disorders, people do all kinds of crazy shit to make themselves more beautiful.

 

[madame_zora]

Well, I&#39;m all in favor of gender-bending if the ones doing it are more relaxed in their own skin. I think guys with nailpolish, or some eye-liner are cute as hell sometimes. I was getting a manicure once and there was a young guys there about 18, and the nail tech tried to make him feel bad because he wanted to get a color of polish instead of just clear. I butted in and said "He just wants to be fancy&#33;", so he looked up relieved, and ordered the hot pink he really wanted and we chatted the rest of the time we were there. Sweet kid.

There&#39;s so much more hope for your genereation than mine, I think it&#39;s exciting to see society changing and get to be here to be involved. Despite the horrible political climate, I think in the long run the ultra-conservative movement will actually help to affect a change much like in the 50&#39;s which led to the 60&#39;s when we were in a bad war that the country wasn&#39;t behind. The next decade might produce some very good things.

The pendulum still has to swing before it gets back to the middle. Yes, men are becomming the targets of marketing now in much the same ways as women have been for decades. Men are becomming more aware of the need to make themselves attractive to prospective mates. Women are being more vocal about preferences in men, where in the past marketers only told us that WE had to be attractive and slim, but a guy could be as unkempt as he pleased. I think these things are good, as men will eventually learn not to expect so much from women once they find out how hard it is to maintain&#33; Then, I hope, we can all just be people and not idolators only of the human form. I hope that once the "penile enlargement craze" wears off, we will see a decrease in anorexia and breast implants as well. You guys have had it too good for too long&#33;

 

[dcwrestlefan]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Mar 10 2005, 01:41 AM

There&#39;s so much more hope for your genereation than mine, I think it&#39;s exciting to see society changing and get to be here to be involved. Despite the horrible political climate, I think in the long run the ultra-conservative movement will actually help to affect a change much like in the 50&#39;s which led to the 60&#39;s when we were in a bad war that the country wasn&#39;t behind. The next decade might produce some very good things.

[post=289660]Quoted post[/post]​

If this "trend" would lead to getting the right wingers out of office, I&#39;d gladly start wearing nail polish, eye shadow and lipstick. (oh this would not be pretty)

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

Of course, I await the moment when boys commit suicide because they&#39;re too fat, or become bulimic, or that men spend hours getting ready for work, or that men wont do manual jobs because they&#39;re not strong enough...

It seems that while men should have to act like women, women can&#39;t fight in the armed forces, will quit a £10k job for the family, and have the excuse of acting irrationally just because biology is unfair.

The door swings both ways IMHO.

Anyway, I don&#39;t want to be a David beckham somehow. I&#39;d rather look like an XY, I&#39;m proud to be a decent "male". After all, I am happy that I can grow a beard and no one gives a shit. That I can have body hair and no man will bitch.l I can actually open a jar of pickles without help&#33; Somehow I don&#39;t feel emotionally ready for a androgynous world where everyone is my girlfriend and I can&#39;t tell my sister from my father. Why? Because I like the fact that there is a difference.

The negative aspects are not unique. You get women who act like bastards, and men who act like bitches, okay, so some stuff like leaving kids behind is a sad indication of male behaviour, but why are men always regarded as negative? Why are we evil? Do we have to be domesticated somehow? Are we nothing more than abnormal sperm bags of flesh with a mutant chromosome with no good redeeming values? Heck, does the male psyche have any redeeming features?

 

[13788]

orionsword57:

Originally posted by madame_zora@Mar 9 2005, 05:41 PM
Well, I&#39;m all in favor of gender-bending if the ones doing it are more relaxed in their own skin.....

....I think it&#39;s exciting to see society changing and get to be here to be involved. Despite the horrible political climate, I think in the long run the ultra-conservative movement will actually help to affect a change much like in the 50&#39;s which led to the 60&#39;s when we were in a bad war that the country wasn&#39;t behind. The next decade might produce some very good things....

...The pendulum still has to swing before it gets back to the middle. Yes, men are becomming the targets of marketing now in much the same ways as women have been for decades. Men are becomming more aware of the need to make themselves attractive to prospective mates. Women are being more vocal about preferences in men, where in the past marketers only told us that WE had to be attractive and slim, but a guy could be as unkempt as he pleased. I think these things are good....&#33;

[post=289660]Quoted post[/post]​

Having lived through a cycle or two, I have to say that MZ is spot on in her assessment of where things probably are going. The key is to "follow the money", and the money is shifting just as she said. The eventual backlash to the Moralist Minority only needs a leader to quantify and qualify. Bill Clinton might have been that leader except for his internal flaws (and I don&#39;t mean Monica). Gore, Kerry, etc.. just ain&#39;t it..... yet. The Bush aganda is so blatantly "over-class" oriented, that it would take a fool not to see it. The War saved his bacon, but it will not look or feel like it does now in 2008 and perhaps 2006.

To the topic.... the "manliness" of a male has been defined and redefined over the centuries. In the 1700&#39;s, being a well-dressed foppish man was the epitome of maledom. Confidence in one&#39;s choices, whatever they may be, is what the world basically wants from the sex that is supposed to kill the game because of his greater physical prowess. If males are not confident in their choices as males, they will see themselves as being de- or re-sexed.

 

[jeepwranglerboi]

Originally posted by ORCABOMBER@Mar 10 2005, 02:54 PM
Of course, I await the moment when boys commit suicide because they&#39;re too fat, or become bulimic, or that men spend hours getting ready for work, or that men wont do manual jobs because they&#39;re not strong enough...

[post=289755]Quoted post[/post]​

I&#39;m gonna reply to this because this is something that really hits home for me. In the past I was diagnosed with anorexia and bulimia. To this day I still go to therapy because I have a mental form of anorexia where no matter how fit, thin and muscular my body is, I will always see myself as fat and overweight. Being in the business I am in and being a dancer makes you very aware of your body. Spending 10 to 12 hours a day in a studio looking at yourself in the mirror can work its toll on the most secure people.

I&#39;ve overcome this disease but I still take it a day at a time. Most people who look at me would never guess that I once would starve myself for days, even weeks and then I would binge eat and make myself vomit. Getting over the bulimia was easier for me, I&#39;m not a fan of vomiting and I could quickly tell that it was doing damage to my vocal cords. However, the anorexia haunts me to this day. I try my best to live a healthy lifestyle. I work out at the gym, I take dance, Pilates and yoga classes, I eat healthy. I avoid processed foods trying to eat fresh and organic foods. I do indulge. I can&#39;t pass up on a good cannoli, flan or creme brulée. I&#39;ll drink alcohol once and a while and I&#39;ll even have a cigarette once every blue moon. But I refuse to indulge too much and I try not to feel guilty after I do. I have to make a conscious effort to eat. I&#39;m sure I could go a couple days without eating and not even think about it but I make sure that I don&#39;t. Coming from a Mediterranean family we are big on food. We eat to celebrate, when we are upset and just for the sake of eating. I grew up in a house where there was always food around. To my mind food is the enemy but I will not let myself fall back into those unhealthy pitfalls.

Being in the industry there is a lot of pressure to look the part. I know dancers who chain smoke, drink coffee and chew gum. That is what is called &#39;The Dancer&#39;s Diet&#39; in the industry. Normally it is used joking around but it truly is a serious matter. I went to school with a guy that did indeed commit suicide because he felt that his body could never live up to his standards. Most people think of eating disorders as a female thing but if you do the research you will see that the number of males are increasing year by year.

As for taking a long time to get ready, I will be the first to admit that I am one of those people. I&#39;m nowhere near as bad as some guys I know though. My friend Brian takes at least 2 hours to get ready to get out. He has a whole ritual that he performs from bathing to getting each hair just right not to mention even picking out an out fit&#33; It takes me half an hour to 45 minutes.

The pressure on youth is all around. have you ever seen an Abercrombie and Fitch ad? I think that it is important for people to see all body types as beautiful. I really enjoyed the movie &#39;Real Women Have Curves.&#39; Go check it out if you haven&#39;t seen it. I personally do for the most part think that all body types are beautiful however that doesn&#39;t mean that I can let myself get that way. I&#39;m quite aware of my illness and I do my best to overcome it. I don&#39;t know that I ever will overcome it 100% but I am gonna do my damnedest. Just because the pressures do not affect you does not mean that it doesn&#39;t affect other men.

 

[viking]

Originally posted by jeepwranglerboi+Mar 10 2005, 09:03 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jeepwranglerboi &#064; Mar 10 2005, 09:03 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-ORCABOMBER@Mar 10 2005, 02:54 PM
Of course, I await the moment when boys commit suicide because they&#39;re too fat, or become bulimic, or that men spend hours getting ready for work, or that men wont do manual jobs because they&#39;re not strong enough...

[post=289755]Quoted post[/post]​

I&#39;m gonna reply to this because this is something that really hits home for me. In the past I was diagnosed with anorexia and bulimia. To this day I still go to therapy because I have a mental form of anorexia where no matter how fit, thin and muscular my body is, I will always see myself as fat and overweight. Being in the business I am in and being a dancer makes you very aware of your body. Spending 10 to 12 hours a day in a studio looking at yourself in the mirror can work its toll on the most secure people.

I&#39;ve overcome this disease but I still take it a day at a time. Most people who look at me would never guess that I once would starve myself for days, even weeks and then I would binge eat and make myself vomit. Getting over the bulimia was easier for me, I&#39;m not a fan of vomiting and I could quickly tell that it was doing damage to my vocal cords. However, the anorexia haunts me to this day. I try my best to live a healthy lifestyle. I work out at the gym, I take dance, Pilates and yoga classes, I eat healthy. I avoid processed foods trying to eat fresh and organic foods. I do indulge. I can&#39;t pass up on a good cannoli, flan or creme brulée. I&#39;ll drink alcohol once and a while and I&#39;ll even have a cigarette once every blue moon. But I refuse to indulge too much and I try not to feel guilty after I do. I have to make a conscious effort to eat. I&#39;m sure I could go a couple days without eating and not even think about it but I make sure that I don&#39;t. Coming from a Mediterranean family we are big on food. We eat to celebrate, when we are upset and just for the sake of eating. I grew up in a house where there was always food around. To my mind food is the enemy but I will not let myself fall back into those unhealthy pitfalls.

Being in the industry there is a lot of pressure to look the part. I know dancers who chain smoke, drink coffee and chew gum. That is what is called &#39;The Dancer&#39;s Diet&#39; in the industry. Normally it is used joking around but it truly is a serious matter. I went to school with a guy that did indeed commit suicide because he felt that his body could never live up to his standards. Most people think of eating disorders as a female thing but if you do the research you will see that the number of males are increasing year by year.

As for taking a long time to get ready, I will be the first to admit that I am one of those people. I&#39;m nowhere near as bad as some guys I know though. My friend Brian takes at least 2 hours to get ready to get out. He has a whole ritual that he performs from bathing to getting each hair just right not to mention even picking out an out fit&#33; It takes me half an hour to 45 minutes.

The pressure on youth is all around. have you ever seen an Abercrombie and Fitch ad? I think that it is important for people to see all body types as beautiful. I really enjoyed the movie &#39;Real Women Have Curves.&#39; Go check it out if you haven&#39;t seen it. I personally do for the most part think that all body types are beautiful however that doesn&#39;t mean that I can let myself get that way. I&#39;m quite aware of my illness and I do my best to overcome it. I don&#39;t know that I ever will overcome it 100% but I am gonna do my damnedest. Just because the pressures do not affect you does not mean that it doesn&#39;t affect other men.

[post=289791]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

Wow, Jeep.

You&#39;re right, I never would have guessed.
Just so you&#39;ll know, you&#39;re one of the best looking and SEXIEST guys out there.
Not to mention the..well...SCHLONG&#33;

Anyhow, I know you&#39;re not fishing for compliments but I just wanted to say it anyway.
I&#39;m sure I can&#39;t really begin to understand the pressure.
I&#39;m a Landscape Architect. ie. my profession is not tied to my physical appearance.
It must be tough. Out there nearly naked, performing for crowds.
Striving for physical perfection and physical beauty and grace.
Tough job. I would love to see you dance.
I&#39;m sure it&#39;s amazing.

 

[jeepwranglerboi]

Thanks, I honestly appreciate it. No, of course I am not looking for compliments, especially since I don&#39;t take them that well. I just wanted to put a face to a disease. Sometimes that is what we need to make it feel real. It&#39;s like HIV / AIDS. You can be sympathetic but until you know someone who contracts it or dies from it, I don&#39;t think you can really see it clearly. I honestly had no intention of opening up this much but I hope that it will help people see things a little differently. Yes, I walk around naked all the time. Yes, I wear form fitting clothing and flirt like a madman but I am very aware of every inch of my body and how it is placed. I am very self conscious and perhaps that is why I often times try to overcompensate by appearing as very body assured. It&#39;s all just part of the healing process. Thank you again. *hugs*