"Racism" charges Prof. Gates

[b.c.]

i did reread it...Gates had a "narrative" in his head...which does not equal the truth of the situation. ...the fact that Gates continued to push him to that degree, says more about Gates then it does Crowley.

Still you miss the point. Ever hear the phrase "perception is reality"?

Reality for Gates was the "narrative" (if you will) in his head, one based on a perspective known to black people. In spite of your assurrances to the contrary, I sense that you don't know that perspective and maybe could never know it, no insult intended. That's the only "narrative" he had to go on.

He could not know of the one in Crowley's head.

For Crowley's part, given all his alleged training in such matters, he should have employed that knowledge in a greater understanding of the cause of Gates' emotions and acted in a more professional manner, as one "trained" in race relations.

Instead, by arresting Gates, he only served to validate that "narrative".

 

[B_Stronzo]

well, the story takes another twist...

not only was Sgt Crowley a trained paramedic, who worked to save the life of former black boston celtics star Reggie Lewis by performing CPR on him, but he is also a police academy expert on racial profiling. has taught a class on racial profiling for five years at Lowell Police Academy
after being hand-picked for the job by former police Commissioner Ronny Watson, who is black.

Cop who arrested black scholar is profiling expert

and Gates has now called him a "rogue cop".

talk about absurd.

He may well be a rogue cop. To apologize would be tantamount to the elimination of his ego. He'd never be able to show his face among his cronies again were he (Crowley) to apologize.

Flash you've eliminated part of that story as we know it here in Boston. Here's the story BEHIND that story here in the greater Boston area:

This was reported on the three major local news stations this morning:


There's an interesting revelation about Mr. Crowley that has come to light. He was a campus police at Brandeis University when Reggie Lewis suffered a fatal attack July 27, 1993, during an off-season practice there. Did he do enough to save Lewis, a black man then and did he do enough to treat Mr. Gates with dignity and respect now? He claimed, during an interview with the Boston Herald, that he cried many nights when questioned about "whether he had done enough to save the black athlete." “Some people were saying ‘There’s the guy who killed Reggie Lewis’ afterward.

In many circles he's not heralded (Crowley) as any great savior - quite the reverse.

You HAVE TO.. I say HAVE TO live in this area to know the animosity which exists between the generational Irish American cop (Crowley is among them) and generational African-American Bostonians. It's horrific.

My old girlfriend (100% Boston Irish) from the 1970s recounted something her brother (who lives in Arlington just outside of Boston) said just after President Obama was sworn in.

"Well <name> we've got an "n-word" in the White House"

When my old friend recounted that to me I went silent as the grave. Finally she said "isn't that awful"? But the only reason she said "isn't that awful" is because I'd not responded. She'd expected me to find it amusing.

All I responded finally was "he ought to be ashamed of himself". I never knew Jim was such a bigot.

I'm telling ya folks it's OUT THERE. It's OVERT. Crowley's guilty of it. And just because most of you may think this is "liberal 'ol Massachusetts"? Bullshit. It's not.

Just under the surface more often than not is "special treatment" all right. The treatment is specifically gauged toward those who're perceived as black or Hipsanic (oh and if you're in Ptown they'll do it to you in just that same "oh it's one of them" way)

There's a very valuable lesson in all this and I hope Gates and his dau. Elizabeth who spoke so eloquently settle for nothing less than an apology from the "good ol' boys" at the Cambridge PD.

I should have sued when I was treated differently. But my brain couldn't wrap itself around what'd happened (still can't sometimes) until many months after. The only thing good that came of it is that I think it sped up the acting Police Chief's leaving his post.

If Professor Gates doesn't get his apology I hope he sues the Cambridge Police as he's suggested he'll do. This shit NEEDS to stop. Whether Sgt. Crowley is a racist or not is up for grabs.

In my view he handled the Gates incident wrong.

The Cambridge Police Department (as of five minutes ago on WBZ-TV news) is setting up a separate commission to look into the thing. I realize that the majority of white middle Americans want the world to remain precisely as it is and do not handle change and embrace learning.

But again - if we don't learn from how this Gates thing was handled we're destined to repeat it.

I'll be back after I finish watching the local news.

This thing's taking off like wildfire here.

 

[Flashy]

The only reason Gates was asked outside was so that they could arrest him for causing a public disturbance, which happened to be on his property caused by the police presence.

that is not true Jase...Gates followed him outside yelling at him...and that was not the reason, because Crowley warned gates *twice* once outside. Two verbal warnings, the next while showing handcuffs.

No police officer has the right to arrest someone just for being an asshole and saying what he or she likes in their own home. What part of this do you not understand? The police broke the law, not Gates.

no, he does not have the right to arrest someone for being an asshole in their own home, but, police are entitled to arrest someone for disorderly conduct in public, which, is where Gates was when he continued screaming and badgering Crowley...while in public, he received two warnings.

he did not simply ask him outside, then arrest him the second he got on the porch. That is untrue. If that was the case you would be right based on what you have said above. But that is not what happened at all. Gates was not arrested, until he had come outside, continued to berate the officer and refused to comply with two warnings.

you can yell and scream whatever you like at the police...you can even give them the finger...but, if you do it, and are loud and obnoxious in public, that falls under a variety of statues regarding disorderly conduct.

You know that as well as i do...you can yell and scream at a cop all you like, and not be arrested for yelling and screaming at a cop...thye know that...but it would not be advisable, since yelling and screaming at cops, in public, is and can be classified as disorderly conduct or violations of other public statutes.

The law does NOT give a shit about whether someone was verbally abusive or angry or indignant. It gives a shit about what the letter of the law is. This is why justice, properly administered, is blind.

yes jase you are right, but the law does state to the letter, that someone causing a disruption or being disorderly in public, can be arrested for it.

Gates was no longer inside, he was still yelling and berating the officer while outside, received two warnings while outside, and the mistake he made was doing it in public. once you are in public, disturbing the peace, disorderly conduct, interfering with police business and a host of other laws are all in fact, in play. Screaming, insulting, and berating an officer in public is not illegal...causing a public disturbance, is.

The law the police violated first and foremost is arguably the highest law of the highest legal document in the land, the US Constitution. Sorry Officer, but you don't get to judge who is free to speak or what they say in their own home.

that was never violated. he was not arrested for speaking or saying anything in his home...you are too smart for that Jase...he was arrested outside...was it retaliatory for what went on in the house? maybe...but the fact is, when he did it outside the house, he had not been arrested yet...he was not under arrest nor in his house... he kept on doing it though, outside, at the officer and defied two warnings outside, he gave up any constitutional protections he had of being an asshole in his own home once he went outside. once you are out in public, and are acting like an asshole, if that assholishness is deemed to be disorderly, you can be arrested.

You weren't physically or verbally threatened so that means you have to, by Constitutional right, shut-up and take it. If you can't, then get out of law enforcement. It's simple as that.

that is not true at all Jase...you cannot arrest some one for being verbally mean and abusive...but if they are doing it loudly and in public, they most certainly can be arrested for disorderly conduct, disturbing the peace, and a host of other statutes. it is a built in protection for cops, so that they do not in fact have to sit there and take abuse.

That means the cop, nor you if you were in the same situation, get to break the law because you're simply fed-up. Doing so exposes your department, your fellow officers, and the municipality you serve and protect, to legal action by the person you illegally arrested. You may even find yourself being charged with false arrest and disciplined or lose your job or even incarcerated.

indeed, but he was outside, and was being disorderly...ipso facto, disorderly conduct. note, he was not arrested for anything related to burglary or anything involving the home...it was Gates' choice...he risked arrest for taking the option of abusing a cop in public, because while that is not a crime, being disorderly certainly can be and is. He fucked up.

You do not fuck with the law you're sworn to protect and uphold. You are held to a higher standard because of your unique powers to arrest and even kill your fellow citizens. If you can't deal with that, then find another job.

The point I hope I'm hitting home as blatantly as possible is that there is never any excuse for a police officer to abuse or misuse the law for any reason even in the face of aggravation.

i am not suggesting there is...i am saying that Crowley was within the law to arrest him for disorderly conduct in public, when his conduct, outside the home and in view of the public, in fact, became, disorderly.

Crowley's statement below does not agree with what he wrote in his report. Crowley asked Gates to come outside the house. To state that Gates could have resolved the issue by, "going back inside," directly contradicts the statement that he made in the report when he asked Gates to come outside while Gates was in an aggravated state thus inviting, aiding, and entrapping Gates to break the law while still on his own property. Gates was arrested as soon as he stepped outside. He had NO opportunity to, "resolve," the issue by going back inside of his own accord.

1. i do not see the statement below so i am not sure which one you are referring to.

2. AGates was not arrested the second he stepped outside. untrue. he was screaming and yelling and received two warnings before being arrested. There were several other officers there, so we shall see what they say. Crowley even ordered Gates uncuffed, then recuffed in the front so it would be more confortable for Gates after Gates complained the cuffs were too tight, and he would have trouble walking with his hands behind his back.

That is not the behavior of a cop who was just trying to "entrap" him. Tosuggest this was entrapment on Crowley's part is *HIGHLY* questionable.

The cop is a goddamn liar looking to cover his own ass and, as usual, the thick blue line is there to back his story no matter how ridiculous it is.

I would be careful with that accusation Jase. This is not a rogue cop. There is no evidence he is a "goddamn liar" yet.

Right now the City of Cambridge has to be shitting its pants. Crowley has exposed the city to a law suit by a man with an impeccable reputation who has the greatest legal minds in the country at his disposal. Crowley has also inadvertently caused the City of Cambridge PD to face scrutiny from not only its own citizens, but the entire world. When a popular President of the US calls the actions of your department's actions, "stupid," you've already lost in the court of public opinion.

not really...POTUS is already backtracking vigorously...see Gibbs' statements today and Obama's interview that he suddenly granted today...the court of public opinion, is hardly in Obama's favor yet on this one...in fact all the police organizations are coming out criticizing Obama in varying degrees...we shall see what public opinion says on the matter in the coming days

So make all the excuses you want, the fact it that the reputation of Crowley, his department, and the city for which he works has been badly damaged and should Gates file charges or sue in civil court, Cambridge will pay dearly for it.

that is debatable Jase. the facts are on Crowley's side in both cases, even though civil court requires less proof.

1. If gates pursues a case based simply on the arrest, well, Gates was arrested outside, after two warnings, on disorderly conduct charges. he was outside and he was disorderly.

2. if gates pursues a race based case, there is no proof whatsoever. Crowley never once mentioned race. he has the backing of several black cops. He has his teaching credentials as a respected instructor on the issue, appointed personally by a black superior, and he also has the very compelling attempts he made to resuscitate, by mouth to mouth and CPR, a well know and respected black athlete (Reggie Lewis). I find it hard to believe that a rogue racist cop, would be selected to teach classes aimed against racial profiling and then to top it off, lock lips with member of a race that he obviously considers inferior, to attempt to save his life.

doesn't really add up

Now do you understand why a cop MUST always stick to the letter of the law no matter how provocative the situation?

I understand completely...and as long as Crowley arrested him outside, after two warnings to calm down, for causing a public disturbance, legally, the letter of the law has been followed. Causing a public disturbance or being disorderly in public, is against the law.

 

[Flashy]

Still you miss the point. Ever hear the phrase "perception is reality"?

yes, i have...it is a phrase. NOthing more. If you are black, and are driving with a tail-light out, and an officer sees the tail light out, and pulls you over, and comes to find a nicely dressed, black man at the wheel, and the policeman says "sir, do you know why i pulled you over"? Maybe the black driver immediately assumes "yes, because i am black and you are white"...that is the perception...what if, the office was in fact, the nicest guy on the force...a stern proponent of ethics etc. and was a truly good cop, who worked in the community dilligently and with great esteem?
that is the reality. so the black person's perception, in that case was wrong...he was pulled over for having a broken taillight. Obviously, there are plenty of "Driving while black" cases, but, as said, no, perception is not always reality.

Perception is a form of reality at times, in that it's something we have to deal with. But perception isn't reality itself. In fact, perception is very often, totally and demonstrably false.

Reality for Gates was the "narrative" (if you will) in his head, one based on a perspective known to black people. In spite of your assurrances to the contrary, I sense that you don't know that perspective and maybe could never know it, no insult intended. That's the only "narrative" he had to go on.

no that was his perception, that he chose to make a "reality". He had never ever encountered a similar situation before...as such, all he had was the perception of being in some strange, Twilight Zone, race based Perceived reality.

He could not know of the one in Crowley's head.

For Crowley's part, given all his alleged training in such matters, he should have employed that knowledge in a greater understanding of the cause of Gates' emotions and acted in a more professional manner, as one "trained" in race relations.

laughable...so he should treat Gates extra-superspecially different, as opposed to just treating him like everyone else?

as for him acting in a more "professional" manner...he ordered gates' cuffs taken off, loosened, and fastened in the front, so Gates, who informed them of his health handicaps, could work more easily and be more comfortable.

Also, he made sure that Gates' house would be properly secured in his absence, checking with him and confirming it with the Harvard employee who showed up.

He also made sure that Gate's cane was retrieved, to further ensure that Gates was not unduly burdened.

that, is professional

Instead, by arresting Gates, he only served to validate that "narrative".

on the contrary...Gates validated it himself, since he was the one who brought race into in the first place, in his mind, with his speech...no matter what happened from then on, even if Crowley had just left, Gates had already thought race, brought up race, accused crowley of race motivations and would no doubt have not though that Crowley was responding to a report of a possible break in to his home...but a possible break in to his home by a pair of "black men" in particular, and had come in with that mindset...

Gates played out the narrative perfectly...but his own subconscious...

the guy writes race, lectures race, discusses race, reviews race, studies race, critiques race...

the guy literally *LIVES* race narratives...ironically, he made his perception his reality, even though that was not the case at all.

he was not thrown down and beaten, he was not insulted or racially humiliated, he was not questioned without due cause, he was not denied his miranda rights, he was not surrounded by screaming cops, Crowley did not storm in, gun drawn and screaming.

 

[speshk]

I've been in this situation several times recently. I've forgotten to disarm the alarm system at work and the motion sensor sends out a signal and sure enough the cops show up a few minutes later. They take nothing for granted, despite the fact I have an explanation, I'm in my work "costume" and am polite and apologetic. They still always ask for my identification. I wouldn't even think of getting pissy with them because I know it'll be trouble for me. So Professor Gates in my opinion provoked the cops with self-righteous indignation, which is describing his behavior mildly. The cops were doing their job, and correctly as best I can tell. Prof Gates was having a bad day and he thought he'd stir some shit. That's my opinion, and I'm no racist, nor am I a lover of cops.

 

[B_Stronzo]

I don't see you as a "stirrer of shit" speshk.

But perhaps this particular shit needs a bit o' stirrin'.

 

[Flashy]

He may well be a rogue cop. To apologize would be tantamount to the elimination of his ego. He'd never be able to show his face among his cronies again were he (Crowley) to apologize.

Flash you've eliminated part of that story as we know it here in Boston. Here's the story BEHIND that story here in the greater Boston area:

i did not eliminate the story...mine was a different link

This was reported on the three major local news stations this morning:


There's an interesting revelation about Mr. Crowley that has come to light. He was a campus police at Brandeis University when Reggie Lewis suffered a fatal attack July 27, 1993, during an off-season practice there. Did he do enough to save Lewis, a black man then and did he do enough to treat Mr. Gates with dignity and respect now? He claimed, during an interview with the Boston Herald, that he cried many nights when questioned about "whether he had done enough to save the black athlete." “Some people were saying ‘There’s the guy who killed Reggie Lewis’ afterward.

In many circles he's not heralded (Crowley) as any great savior - quite the reverse.

dude, you have got to be kidding me..."There's the guy that killed Reggie Lewis"?

i would say that any person that sees that in "reverse" is a fucking idiot...this guy came in and gave him *MOUTH-To-MOUTH" and CPR...what the hell else was he supposed to do...

i think that absurd line should show just who the truly biased loonies are..."There's The Guy Who Killed Reggie Lewis"? I am sorry...that is baffling...the guy is a friggin paramedic trained cop who tried to save a guy who was either already dead or near death.

if someone does everything they can to save your mom who has had a heart attack, but she passes, do you and everyone you know walk around saying "there's the guy who killed my mom".

and you did leave out the important next couple of sentences

“Some people were saying ‘There’s the guy who killed Reggie Lewis’ afterward. I was broken-hearted. I cried for many nights,” he said.
Crowley, 42, said he’s not a racist, despite how some have cast his actions in the Gates case. “Those who know me know I’m not,” he said.
Yesterday, Lewis’ widow, Donna Lewis, was floored to learn the embattled father of three on the thin blue line of a national debate on racism in America was the same man so determined to rescue her husband.
“That’s incredible,” Lewis, 44, exclaimed. “It’s an unfortunate situation. Hopefully, it can resolve itself. The most important thing is peace.”

You HAVE TO.. I say HAVE TO live in this area to know the animosity which exists between the generational Irish American cop (Crowley is among them) and generational African-American Bostonians. It's horrific.

yes, i know of Boston's nasty racial history...all the more reason that you might consider cutting a bit of slack to the Irish American Cop, who tried to give the black basketball star the kiss of life...i would say that *CERTAINLY* crosses by a hell of a lot, the gulf in race relations, wouldn't you say? I would say any white guy willing to do that, would deserve just a bit of the benefit of the doubt when confronted with allegations of racism...

just a bit of the benefit of the doubt....think about it....irish white cop attempts to give the kiss of life, black basketball star.

you might consider just cutting him a bit of slack.

My old girlfriend (100% Boston Irish) from the 1970s recounted something her brother (who lives in Arlington just outside of Boston) said just after President Obama was sworn in.

"Well <name> we've got an "n-word" in the White House"

When my old friend recounted that to me I went silent as the grave. Finally she said "isn't that awful"? But the only reason she said "isn't that awful" is because I'd not responded. She'd expected me to find it amusing.

All I responded finally was "he ought to be ashamed of himself". I never knew Jim was such a bigot.

i have never doubted that there were bigots. that is not something new, and nor is it restricted to white folks. Recently, the black community has not always been friendly to the hispanic, korean and gay community have they?

i would say that blacks, have a well know nature for being just as bigoted as everyone else.

I'm telling ya folks it's OUT THERE. It's OVERT. Crowley's guilty of it. And just because most of you may think this is "liberal 'ol Massachusetts"? Bullshit. It's not.

sorry, i will give the benefit of the doubt, for the time being, to the white guy who tried to save the black guys life, by putting his lips on the other guys lips, and trying to inject life back into that man, using the air from his own lungs.

sorry...maybe it is just me...but that means something and it stands out.

You'd have to be pretty cold not to see that.

Just under the surface more often than not is "special treatment" all right. The treatment is specifically gauged toward those who're perceived as black or Hipsanic (oh and if you're in Ptown they'll do it to you in just that same "oh it's one of them" way)

There's a very valuable lesson in all this and I hope Gates and his dau. Elizabeth who spoke so eloquently settle for nothing less than an apology from the "good ol' boys" at the Cambridge PD.

I should have sued when I was treated differently. But my brain couldn't wrap itself around what'd happened (still can't sometimes) until many months after. The only thing good that came of it is that I think it sped up the acting Police Chief's leaving his post.

If Professor Gates doesn't get his apology I hope he sues the Cambridge Police as he's suggested he'll do. This shit NEEDS to stop. Whether Sgt. Crowley is a racist or not is up for grabs.

In my view he handled the Gates incident wrong.

The Cambridge Police Department (as of five minutes ago on WBZ-TV news) is setting up a separate commission to look into the thing. I realize that the majority of white middle Americans want the world to remain precisely as it is and do not handle change and embrace learning.

But again - if we don't learn from how this Gates thing was handled we're destined to repeat it.

I'll be back after I finish watching the local news.

This thing's taking off like wildfire here.

i will hold off on the hysterics for a while :smile:

 

[Flashy]

I've been in this situation several times recently. I've forgotten to disarm the alarm system at work and the motion sensor sends out a signal and sure enough the cops show up a few minutes later. They take nothing for granted, despite the fact I have an explanation, I'm in my work "costume" and am polite and apologetic. They still always ask for my identification. I wouldn't even think of getting pissy with them because I know it'll be trouble for me. So Professor Gates in my opinion provoked the cops with self-righteous indignation, which is describing his behavior mildly. The cops were doing their job, and correctly as best I can tell. Prof Gates was having a bad day and he thought he'd stir some shit. That's my opinion, and I'm no racist, nor am I a lover of cops.

i agree...though i do not think Gates deliberately thought to stir some shit...i think his ego and his mind thought something was happening differently than it was, and instead of behaving kindly, politely, rationally, wisely...he went off the deep end.

 

[b.c.]

laughable...so he should treat Gates extra-superspecially different, as opposed to just treating him like everyone else?

No, he should have employed all of that alleged sensitivity training he'd supposedly "mastered" by leaving the premises instead of luring Gates out of his own home only to slap him with handcuffs and arrest him on some bullshit disorderly conduct charge (and getting his partners to substantiate it with a "laughable" supplemental report - just to cover his own ass).

But I see your perception from the start of the thread was and remains to defend the cops' actions, characterize Gates as something resembling your father (as you repeatedly pointed out), and to generally dismiss reference to the racial realities that undoubtedly motivated Gates' actions.

So I'll not waste any more of my time in trying to explain it to you.

 

[speshk]

There are no bigger, priggish egomaniacs than college professors, except possibly some pastors and religious leaders.

My second point would be that you should never mouth off to cops, even if they're being assholes. You wouldn't be picking your fight wisely.

 

[b.c.]

There are no bigger, priggish egomaniacs than college professors, except possibly some pastors and religious leaders.

My second point would be that you should never mouth off to a cop, even if they're being assholes. You wouldn't be picking your fight wisely.

Undoubtedly ego was involved too. I personally wouldn't have gone off on the cop (primarily because 1. he's the one with the gun and 2. I'm all too aware of what can happen to one who does, ESPECIALLY a black man).

But I certainly would've been pissed as a motha... One would have to imagine oneself not only a black person but one in Gates' place, to even begin to understand why.

First of all there exists a difference in treatment in so many almost untangible ways as it relates to the judicial system, healthcare, employment, you name it. This difference is based sometimes on race, sometimes on economic status and too often on an assumed connection between the two. In some ways it amounts, for people in that situation as a "presumption of guilt".

When blacks work hard to educate themselves, try to attain a certain degree of status to bring themselves up from all of that, they have a certain HOPE at least, that, by virtue of their lifelong efforts, they'd not have to put up with the bullshit still.

It's the reasonable expectation of being treated with some degree of respect that, say, a CEO with a firm, or a member of Congress, or a well-to-do businessman, or your doctor, would also have. None of them would expect, I think, to find police officers in their own home asking for identification to prove they belong there, for example.

But when it does occur, and you're a black man who has that reasonable expectation (that he's finally managed to rise above that "presumption of guilt") it can quite literally be a slap in the face.

Here's a man, who's a Harvard law professor, whose mug shots are posted all over the internet because he went off when police entered his place of residence and asked for identification. WHAT THE FUCK???

Some here argue that he didn't have reason to go off like that. All I know is I'm fucking pissed, and I ain't Gates.

 

[2322]

If the District Attorney's Office of the City of Cambridge dropped the charges, which they did, then they did not believe Crowley's arrest was warranted. That means Gates was not acting in a disorderly fashion under the laws of the City of Cambridge. Further Gates may have been in public once on the porch but first amendment rights do not end once you are in public and, being he was still on his property, even that is debatable. We are free to assemble, shout, yell, demonstrate, and do anything else in a non-violent manner. This too is protected under the Constitution. If there was a group of people standing around it was because many more police from Cambridge and Harvard were appearing at the residence of a famous person. The police created the scene, not Gates. I also stand-by my earlier statement that Crowley pushed Gates into being in a situation where Crowley thought he could arrest him for something by inviting him outside AFTER establishing that Gates was the legal resident of the house while Gates was in an agitated state. There is no excuse for that unless Crowley was looking to push Gates' anger even further. As soon as they were outside, Crowley had his audience and he had to perform and so turned around and walked away from what was, by Crowley's own admission, a crime still in occurrence all the while warning Gates to shut-up and go inside. If that's what Crowley wanted then why invite him outside to begin with? If Crowley really believed Gates was committing a crime while in his own home (as he stated in his report), then why turn around to leave? Which is it officer? Either you're going to arrest the guy because he's committing a crime or you're leaving because he hadn't committed a crime. I submit that Crowley's behavior is illogical and inconsistent, unless Crowley was looking for an excuse to arrest Gates. As a Phoenix writer pointed out, Crowley taking out his handcuffs could only serve to goad Gates into becoming angrier.

It is far more damaging for the city to drop charges than to pursue them in court and lose because it means the police fucked-up and, to put it gently, misconstrued the law. When your own top law enforcement official in the person of the District Attorney can't stand behind the actions of his or her own police department, it is extremely damaging to the reputation of the police department.

To say that Crowley acted properly in any sense is disproved by the actions of his own superiors. That should tell you something.

I rest my case.

 

[speshk]

All good points.

In those experiences I've had, it wasn't until after I produced my ID that I began to feel like the police were even beginning to be friendly. I'd hate to think how they'd behave with me if I became indignant. In any case, it's humbling. If I were African American, I'm sure I would feel even more uncomfortable.

 

[speshk]

Gates was abusive. He put the cops on the defensive. What were they supposed to do, cower and run while he shouted at them? Put yourself in their position. Much as I'm concerned about police abuse, I wouldn't want cops cringing in the face of confrontation, especially when they are following lawful procedure. If the cops baited Gates into following them out onto the porch, they probably were hoping for witnesses. You can imagine what was running through that cop's mind: "This could get ugly." Indeed.

 

[Flashy]

No, he should have employed all of that alleged sensitivity training he'd supposedly "mastered" by leaving the premises instead of luring Gates out of his own home only to slap him with handcuffs and arrest him on some bullshit disorderly conduct charge (and getting his partners to substantiate it with a "laughable" supplemental report - just to cover his own ass).

But I see your perception from the start of the thread was and remains to defend the cops' actions, characterize Gates as something resembling your father (as you repeatedly pointed out), and to generally dismiss reference to the racial realities that undoubtedly motivated Gates' actions.

So I'll not waste any more of my time in trying to explain it to you.

the fact is, the officer did not "lure" Gates out of his own home only to slap him with handcuffs...Gates *Followed* him out there, berating him, demanding his badge number and name, when Gates got out there, he was not immediately arrested or handcuffed...he recieved *TWO* count em *TWO* warnings to calm down...the second warning, Crowley made with cuffs in hand, showing Gates what would happen if he continued...gates chose to continue.

My "perception" is that indeed, Gates reactions mirror that of people like my father, and of that video that was posted of the driver lashing out at the cop and thousands of other people who have a serious problem with remaining calm, polite, respectful and clear in situations where that is absolutely the suggestable not to mention polite and rational way to remain.

Behaving like an asshole and a psycho, gets you treated like one, invariably.

you spoke of perception and of reality...

you said that my "perception from the start of the thread was and remains to defend the cops' actions,"

actually that was not my perception. That was my intent and my reality. Yes, I am defending the cop. I do not know if he *SHOULD* have arrested Gates, but he was within legal rights to do so, and Gates absolutely pushed him to the point where that is how it wound up.

and yes, i generally dismiss reference to the racial realities that motivated Gates' actions. how would he know what the reality was? He has stated he has never been in a situation of that nature...I think it is safe to say he reacted extremely badly. The officer showed up, on call, and did absolutely nothing wrong...perhaps Gates was cranky, tired, bronchial, whatever, but a race narrative was not playing out...the officer did not mention race, not once.

Gates made it racial, he thought it, he rationalized it in his head and then he began saying it out loud, over and over again and once he did that, he had escalated the situation...no matter what happened before and after, because of him, it was a racial incident. A routine check to answer a 911 call of a break in, was turned, accidentally by gates' "perception" of the situation, which was not in fact reality, into a racial event.


pretty simple. gates started and escalated it, the officer finished it.BOth would have been better served to have let it lie.

That said, the officer showed no inclination towards Gates in the beginning to be behaving in anything other than a professional and thorough manner from all reports, investigating completely, and thoroughly reports of a break-in.

If Gates had reacted like a calm rational college professor and not a spoiled, angry brat, we would likely not be discussing any of this.

and just FYI...it was said later by the police, that apparently, the reason it is thought that the door was jammed in the first place, was, that during gates' absence, lo and behold, someone had tried to break-in, screwing up the lock.

hmmmmmm.

if i were the Cambridge PD, i would put Gates' number and address on an immediate pay-no-mind list.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Gates was abusive. He put the cops on the defensive. What were they supposed to do, cower and run while he shouted at them? Put yourself in their position. Much as I'm concerned about police abuse, I wouldn't want cops cringing in the face of confrontation, especially when they are following lawful procedure. If the cops baited Gates into following them out onto the porch, they probably were hoping for witnesses. You can imagine what was running through that cop's mind: "This could get ugly." Indeed.

Were I guestioned IN MY OWN HOME the way Gates was AFTER producing two forms of legitimate ID I'd be pretty pissed off too. He was just in the door from a very long flight from the Orient.

The police are full of themselves. They played cops and robbers with the wrong fella this time and they're going to be held accountable I hope.

After Professor Gates had proven who he was it should have been an end to it. Of course the man was angry. He'd just gotten back from Logan, he had jet lag, he's a black man cognizant of how he's perceived in his neighborhood and he probably wanted to simply kick back and have a cocktail. Yet here he was being given the third degree still by the Cambridge PD. They should have said "sorry to have bothered you" and left!

I doubt anything short of "I wonder what my wife's got on the table for my supper" was on Crowley's mind in truth.

IMO bottom line?

Cambridge cops puffed out their chests at the wrong man. Time to pay the piper.

If the District Attorney's Office of the City of Cambridge dropped the charges, which they did, then they did not believe Crowley's arrest was warranted. That means Gates was not acting in a disorderly fashion under the laws of the City of Cambridge.

Indeed. Had he been acting in a "disorderly fashion" the DA's office would not have dropped the charges nearly immediately.

Jason- you've nearly quoted verbatim what was broadcast on WBZ-TV about the incident on tonight's news.

Some here argue that he didn't have a reason to go off like that. All I know is I'm fucking pissed, and I ain't Gates.

Hits me exactly the same way.

Hear hear.

yes, i know of Boston's nasty racial history...all the more reason that you might consider cutting a bit of slack to the Irish American Cop,..

Not on your life. I've seen too many of them flexing their power issues over others (and me) with no regard for reason and perspective.

Why would that be a reason for me to cut Crowley any slack?

He f*cked up.

sorry, i will give the benefit of the doubt, for the time being, to the white guy who tried to save the black guys life, by putting his lips on the other guys lips, and trying to inject life back into that man, using the air from his own lungs.

I've put my lips "on another guy's lips" often.

It's not so bad. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

i would say that blacks, have a well know nature for being just as bigoted as everyone else. Recently, the black community has not always been friendly to the hispanic, korean and gay community have they?

... ummmmmm huh? And black people should be held to a higher standard than anyone else because?

 

[2322]

Yes, Crowley by his own admission, asked Gates outside a second time and did so after affirming Gates was the legal resident of the house. I quote from the section of the police report filed by Crowley himself:

I told Gates that I was leaving his residence and that if he had any other questions regarding the matter, I would speak with him outside of the residence. -Cambridge PD Incident Report #9005127​

Gates' own statement affirms that the police officer invited him outside a second time.

In that, the two of them agree.

 

[2322]

Jason- you've nearly quoted verbatim what was broadcast on WBZ-TV about the incident on tonight's news.

You mean they've quoted me :biggrin1:. Bastards probably didn't even give me any credit!

 

[2322]

actually that was not my perception. That was my intent and my reality. Yes, I am defending the cop. I do not know if he *SHOULD* have arrested Gates, but he was within legal rights to do so, and Gates absolutely pushed him to the point where that is how it wound up.

It's been established that Crowley was not within his legal rights to do so and that Gates, "pushing," him should not legally enter into the decision.

Why are you ignoring this Flashy?

if i were the Cambridge PD, i would put Gates' number and address on an immediate pay-no-mind list.

And you think THAT would solve the problem? Do you not see how that would only reinforce the public's perception that not only is Crowley a racist but the entire police department is too?

You seem to not understand that repressing emotional reaction to law enforcement situations is essential to proper law enforcement and that being unable to do so results in damages far greater than might otherwise occur.

I'm also disappointed that you believe emotional response on the part of law enforcement is grounds for violating Constitutional law. That's sad.

 

[Flashy]

I've put my lips "on another guy's lips" often.

It's not so bad. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

yes, but you are gay, he is not.

i would say, a white, irish, heterosexual male, attempting to save the life of a black male, by putting his lips on the other mans lips and resuscitate him is a pretty decent sign of being pretty indicative of that person being of "good faith" and decency.

that is my opinion...that shows a lack of regard on the part of the officer for the prejudices that may have prevented another man, with inherent prejudices from behaving in the same manner of trying to save lewis' life.

... ummmmmm huh? And black people should be held to a higher standard than anyone else because?

no, black people should not be held to a higher standard then anyone else...black people should think twice about the hypocrisy of claiming bigotry from others, without any hint of self-examination.

the same things that many blacks complain about, legitimately, can in turn, be leveled at blacks on their behavior in many instances when considering their dealings with members of other communities.

bigotry is not something that only one group has a monopoly on.