Trust between men

[jumbo747jet]

Hello everybody.

I have been with the lpsg site from the very beginning and over the years I have been communicating with a large number of people from all walks of life, different nationalities and a multitude of sexual orientations.

This has taught me a lot and as so many questions have been raised, more and more answers have had to be found.

Knowing how some people who visit the site tend to jump on posts which go against their initial way of thinking, I specifically ask you to please take the time to properly reflect at what I am writing before pushing the respond button.

Now to what I feel I have come to realise.

I think there is a huge need among men for other male friends.

No, I am not talking about another buddy to have a few drinks with, or to watch the next game with. I am talking about a friend who we can be open, honest and vulnerable with, without the fear of having what we have just confessed to, be thrown back into our faces with a laugh.

One of the reasons for why I think this is the case is that I during these years of communicating about sensative issues with others over the net, I have met a unproportionable amount of men who have what they describe as bisexual tendencies.
At first, I often assumed that it was bisexual and gay men who, through their sexual orientation, were more likely to contribute to a site dedicated to a topic such as penis size.
While I still think this may well be true to some extent, I have now begun to think that a very large group of men have misinterpreted their need and longing for a close non-sexual relationship with other males for being bisexual urges.

As those of you who have been in contact with me over the years know, I am far from being a homophobe, so I am not saying that those who really are bisexual are wrong in any way.

As humans we are all sexual beings and as we all know, our sex drive is very powerful and I believe we all depend on being reassured by others in order to feel good about ourselves.
Women compliment eachother all the time, but how often do us men actually compliment eachother ?
Sure, we probably all think it, but for whatever reasons it usually stops with a thought inside our own heads.

I have a feeling that many men who think they might be bisexual, really just crave a close and open relationship with one or several other men.

All of us who come to the lpsg site know how easy it is to talk openly and honestly when we are on-line, but very few of us would be comfortable ever talking about these same issues when face to face with somebody.

Not long ago, I had a chat with a middleaged person who told me he is married. He also said he has bisexual urges.
His limited experiences of male to male sexual contacts had extended to mutual masturbation sessions.
His wife was not aware.
He also told me that these mutual masturbation sessions with other men had not been as rewarding as he had hoped they would be.
He was left with a very empty feeling afterwards as these relationships didn't lead to any closeness between the two men, which was really what he had been hoping for.

I wouldn't be entirely truthful if I didn't admit to sometimes having questioned my own sexual feelings over the years, but as I have come to the conclusion that I really do not have any sexual desire for males, I have come to realise that I have a strong need for close non-sexual bonds with other men.

This post is starting to get very long, and I fear nobody is going to take the time to read it through if I continue rambling on, so I will leave it at this, and hopefully others will add to this thread with their own feelings and thoughts.

Regards

jumbo747jet

 

[JohnDoeXXXm]

I could not agree 1000% more, and I couldn't have said it better.

 

[Max]

Jumbo,

You have my complete agreement on this as well. I think in fact a lot more men have very close friends than you might think. We don't maybe need very many of them, nor do we need to spend hours on the phone with them, but we need them all the same.

 

[ryanart]

Jumbo,
great post , many a time on here I have seen posts where men ask really honest questions, not just about sexuality, but men really searching for answeres. And have maybe recieved truly honest answeres from other men.
So with that said, because of this site alot of people are being helped, and I think this site , the moderators (like yourself) should be congratulated for your efforts!
As for men , face to face , doing what you ask may be a bit utopian, in thought. I think society today does not lend itself to intimacy on many levels. I also think, and hope that men can do what you wish for . It just might help men who are lonely, or in a rel. of any kind find solice. Many thanks to your efforts.

 

[vinny_spiruccino]

Gotta say that I agree with Jumbo as well - regardless of orientation I think all men do feel the need for true affirmation from one another.

 

[Sixofspades]

Nothing can replace true trust and validation between men. It's a great feeling. I notice that women are often jealous of the bonds we're able to have with one another, and wish they could conduct friendships with this level of understanding. There's something unconditional that goes on between men. It's non-judgemental and completely un-bitchy. This, along with owning a penis, is the main reason I'm glad to be male.

 

[camper joe]

I agree with you Jumbo, from a early age we ''boys' are told to be tough, don't cry, told not express or show our true feelings, just keep your feels to yourself.

When in reality we needed to be encourage to express ourselves and to talk to other, to express what we are feeling, and not to bottle things up.

 

[ryanart]

Wow after re-reading my post and the others i must look extremely pesimistic. sorry didnt mean to sound that way.

 

[YourAvgGuy]

Excellent post, Jumbo! I could not agree with you more…

We are creatures of habit and nature has dominion over us to a great deal. The need for solace, affection, belonging and understanding is a primary survival element deeply rooted in all of us. How we choose to manipulate and act upon those emotions, however, is what causes potential distress.

Society has did a great job of describing what type of behavior men display and we, society, have aided and have adopted those primitive ideologies. We have embedded within ourselves a distance of what is deemed appropriate behavior – regardless of content, situation or circumstance – almost to a point where male bonding has become obsolete, unless of course it mirrors homosexual behavior. This injustice invades the need for self-exploration, mutual connection and emotional ties with other men as well as the ability to become vulnerable to each other. The more rigid and less emotional male then becomes dominant and thus, evolves into a “morally acceptable” figure than those who characterize themselves as more domicile.

Only until men begin to reconcile their own feelings and begin to appreciate the need for bonding and the intimacy it involves will we truly find the value of brotherhood, the appreciation of ourselves and the pleasure of being truly human. Emancipation for the male species could be on the horizon if we embraced the notion of freedom and progressively work towards that common goal…

 

[T-Lex]

Do you think this type of camaderie and male bonding is what the guys are trying to accomplish when they get naked, sit around a fire, and bang on bongos?

I have had many friendships with heterosexual men over the years that were completely platonic, but stopped just short of being truly emotionally connected. I think gay men experience a "best girlfriend" type bond with other gay men, but with straight guys, I think there's an innate fear of getting too close for fear of being labeled as gay...or perhaps that type of closeness might cause them to question their own sexuality, which is, in itself, uncomfortable. Who knows?

I do agree that men of all sexual proclivities would do well to form deep, emotional, loving relationships with other men that don't necessarily have to include sex.

 

[novice_btm]

Great post, Jumbo. I'm definitely looking forward to how this thread develops.

 

[Strontium]

Agree, and I would say that the very close, very honest, non-sexual relationships I have had with 2 particular straight men have been among the most rewarding of all my relationships. One guy was my gym buddy, the other, a friend from childhood. Both men knew I was bi, both dealt with it, and our friendship was not based upon a lurking, latent valency.

I also think the trend is changing. I think it's a little easier to have this closeness than 10 or 15 years ago. This is hard to say objectively, because I have grown and matured over the same time, and my opinion is therefore trapped in time.

 

[jumbo747jet]

Do you think this type of camaderie and male bonding is what the guys are trying to accomplish when they get naked, sit around a fire, and bang on bongos?

Yes, I have a strong feeling that it is as I think most of us will agree that we feel the most vulnerable when we're naked.
I think a lot of men would love to be complimented by another male while naked, if he knows the other man has no alterior motives.

As always, I can only speak from my own experience, but somehow I have always valued whatever comments I have gotten, about my size, from other guys more than what women I have been intimate with have said.

Being complimented for your dick by another male is actually hugely flattering and sexually arousing, but it does not mean, at least not for me, that I want to be sexual with another male.

 

[benderten2001]

jumbo....you have expressed great wisdom in this thread!
Very well done. :wink:

Guys don't always know WHAT is "going on inside them"!
Feelings, longings, YEARNINGS which get easily misinterpreted.

Like you, I'm convinced many of us go through life with these feelings which (quite often) are in essence, representing SCARS from rejection of other males during our life...particularly from our youth. It could be rejection from our father, or other family members. Or, our peers.

As a consequence, we pull away from other guys by our NOT feeling "good enough" or "big enough" while we inwardly wish for acceptance, validation, and affirmation. Hormones kick in, and THEN, our inner turmoil becomes "sexualized". We transfer our feelings of inadequacy around other men into savoring the other guy's "manliness". What we (think we) lack in ourselves, we admire, lavish over, and wind up envying in the other guy who might happen to show us even the slightest of attention. So, it's not always a matter of wanting to have sex with another man. No. --It's being near what we don't have emotionally, psychologically, or physically ourselves. This "lack" cruelly plays into our own level of self-confidence. The LACK of confidence (that is) in ourselves. It's a cruel mind game going on--only perpetuated by surrounding culture. After all, the message we keep hearing is that only handsome men, HUNG men truly matter. The rest of us take back seats and watch the world go by around us. So, many of us guys then (already down on ourselves) only sink lower. Obviously, we are the victims of our own mental poisoning. And only we can do something about it--CHANGE our thinking. But, it's not easy. We first have to recognize that a problem exists which we personally helped feed by succombing to the subtle erosion of our psyches--occuring over many, many years (for some of us). --It's very DEEP stuff going on, guys!

My reading over the last seven years verifies this. But recognizing this "trend" has indeed occurred sometime in our life is hard to admit to. And accept. I've had LPSG members send me IMs over the years embracing my logic. And I've had others too, "blasting me" for it. I try to understand each man's reaction though, because it's scary stuff. It's painful to deal with. One could easily be left feel very ashamed, even embarrassed. But, it's such common ground among us men.

The experience here at the LPSG is rich. For one thing, it's the only forum of its kind (really) that affords an opportunity to let go and just be ourselves. We share what would dare not EVER be mentioned anywhere else. Wow--the WOMEN sure get an insight around here about us males, don't they!

But more than that, many of us come away knowing we're not necessarily all by ourselves after all in feeling the way we do as men. And WORRYING the way many of do as men! And that's been my own experience here.

And so, I remain grateful to you Jumbo, (and MAX :wink and others.
Whenever one or two of the "old timers" turn up here with a post (or two), well--I realize I'm perhaps NOT the only one of the original LPSG pack left after all! :biggrin1:

 

[D_Earlsomme Eatsprick]

What an exellent post! :smile:

Maybe I have something to say about the topic.
In human beings, sexual activities aren't confined to reprodution, as well in high primates (Chimpanzee bonobo), so that these activities are clearly involved in other social and emotional behaviours, despite the cultural attempt to deny this fact.
This explain why being complimented for your cock by another male can be sexually arousing, even without you want (or think) to have sex with him. In Bonobo, the primate that is more similar to humans (phisically, genetically and psychologically - cognitive abilities), sexual behaviours are about maintaining hierarchies and good relations among group members, and are a way to make peace with male and female after a dispute, a way to tensions quickly dissolve.
And, by the way, in a scientific research no one Bonobo was found being homosexual, and no one was found heterosexual. Chimpazee Bonobo are ALL bisexual, without exceptions. This is what seem happen when sex expand its influence from reproduction to all the social behaviours in a species. Is this the condition of humans too, if we flush some cultural trends we are involved? And, if the answer is "yes" (as I think it is), why we had just such a cultural trends?

So, despite my cultural inability to write well in english , I hope I have written something understandable :tongue:

 

[earllogjam]

I have three very close male friends that I have known most of my life, one since grade school. They have been there for me even when I had lost all faith in myself. They mean a great deal to me because they are the few people in the world that I feel completely at ease to be around. I always feel that the world is OK when I'm with them and we see each other for who we really are deep down inside and accept that. It's very comforting for me.

I'm beginning to see that these kinds of relationships are rare today which makes me wonder why.

I think these male male friendships are only possible when there is NO sexual component. Two of my friends are straight with families now and one is gay who has a lover and I have no sexual feelings for any of them so we can be close without having any weirdness of sexual attraction getting in the way.

One of the repercussions of the Gay Lib movement is that once homosexuality was out in the open men where more conscious about getting close to other men because of the fear of that friendship and intimacy might be construed as gay. It is unusual that in Muslim counties like Morocco where homosexuality is denied men show a lot of outward affection towards each other like cheek kissing, holding hands and gazing into each others eyes free from the stigma of being gay or effeminate. It just seems more conducive to these kinds of friendships.

 

[eddie80]

First of all, I want to say that I agree with nearly everyone else - the topic is wonderful, and something that really should be discussed. Having said that, I would like to offer another point of view.

It could be that when a heterosexual man feels the desire to be sexually involved with another man, that is exactly what he is feeling. It need not be interpreted as a pathological symptom of negative self-image, or unfulfilled masculine comraderie. Maybe he just feels a quite natural curiosity about sex.

We have this tendency to define ourselves so quickly, and so narrowly, by our sexual desires. Naturally, if we feel something that doesn't "fit" our role we panic - and look for explanations. Maybe the explanation is a lot more simple than we believe. Maybe we just sometimes want what we want. Is it necessary to make the erotic feelings go away by claiming that they are "really" something else, in order to remain what we are?

I do agree, very heartily, that heterosexual men in particular have a rough time developing "intimate" friendships. And we all know that sometimes sex takes the place of real intimacy - this happens between long-term couples of all sexual orientations. But we don't need to posit deep-seated emotional problems to explain unexpected sexual desires. Maybe we should learn to expect them, and not blow them out of proportion.

Submitted with respect and good humor.

 

[Strontium]

What an exellent post! :smile:

Maybe I have something to say about the topic.
In human beings, sexual activities aren't confined to reprodution, as well in high primates (Chimpanzee bonobo), so that these activities are clearly involved in other social and emotional behaviours, despite the cultural attempt to deny this fact.
This explain why being complimented for your cock by another male can be sexually arousing, even without you want (or think) to have sex with him. In Bonobo, the primate that is more similar to humans (phisically, genetically and psychologically - cognitive abilities), sexual behaviours are about maintaining hierarchies and good relations among group members, and are a way to make peace with male and female after a dispute, a way to tensions quickly dissolve.
And, by the way, in a scientific research no one Bonobo was found being homosexual, and no one was found heterosexual. Chimpazee Bonobo are ALL bisexual, without exceptions. This is what seem happen when sex expand its influence from reproduction to all the social behaviours in a species. Is this the condition of humans too, if we flush some cultural trends we are involved? And, if the answer is "yes" (as I think it is), why we had just such a cultural trends?

So, despite my cultural inability to write well in english , I hope I have written something understandable :tongue:

I wonder if this an ethological explanation of the "gay" gene, i.e. that it strengthens the bonding and emotional wellbeing of the individual within his group.

I use the word gay very uncomfortably in this context, since the term is as meaningless here as it was for the ancients. ie, 'gay' is a modern construct.

 

[hung]

WOW!!!!!

Great thread and many well thought out replies. Yes, this is what being a male of the species is all about.

 

[eddie80]

I use the word gay very uncomfortably in this context, since the term is as meaningless here as it was for the ancients. ie, 'gay' is a modern construct.

Agree with you Stronty, but being a construct doesn't make it meaningless. On the contrary - by definition it's full of meaning. That's why this topic is so full of possibility, huh? We're messing with the constructs. Of gay and straight.