Why are progressives against school vouchers..

[DC_DEEP]

It's easier to bitch from afar than to get your nails dirty. Here are some really easy things that would help teachers tremendously:

• Donate supplies (pencils, paper, markers, crayons, glue). Many teachers have to purchase these out of pocket as the school allocation is not enough.
• Donate time (ask a teacher if s/he can send home things that you can help them with and send back) Think about things like word rings and index cards. Teachers spend hours cutting and pasting. Every little bit helps.
• Organize a fund raiser. Ask your church/organization to have a fundraiser and give the proceeds to a local school. Think about how much money you can raise with the help of your middle class peers.
• Volunteer. Spend time in the School. Help with hall, office or cafeteria duty.

GIVE BACK.

Since I had no textbooks for my general music classes, I basically had to "write it as I go." I had to be careful not to plagiarize other textbooks I used as reference; so every lesson plan for that class was almost like writing a dissertation, and I had to type and copy it myself, out of pocket. Almost half of my beginning band students couldn't afford a book and a cheap used instrument, so I didn't use a beginner text, I wrote my own. When instruments needed maintenence or repair, I either did it myself or paid or subsidized the cost. No parent ever helped; one parent did help by sponsoring a fund-raiser, once. We almost got enough money to buy one new piece of music. I was overwhelmed, I worked (literally) 14 hours a day. I had 12 high school students, and the administration kept hounding me about why I was not fielding a marching band at football games.

I entirely agree in practical terms, but by doing so the root causes are not really addressed so one perpetuates the problem.

I give some time to a school not too far away from me; I'm paid for some but a chunk I do pro bono so to speak as I know they can't properly afford some of the things they need done. It's not much but it's something.

Keep the above paragraph in mind, and believe me when I tell you that every single effort helps and is appreciated.

Why is there the stench of urine in the stairwells. Are the students pissing their pants or are they just "whiping it out and pissing on the stairs to create mischief. Are the bathrooms so bad or dangerous that students feel safer peeing on the stairs then going into a bathroom where they are afrraid they might be attacked in some way.

Where are the teachers? I would think the students would get caught pissing on the stairs wheether they did in on purpose or had an accident.

The conditions you have described are deplorable. And we expect students to learn in this environment?

Hahah, Freddie, you've led a sheltered life. I doubt you would see this kind of stuff in Little Rock Central, and it's nothing like the inner city schools in DC or Baltimore. These schools are overcrowded, understaffed, have gang influence. No, the teachers can't be everywhere at once. And yes, many of the students have so little respect.

 

[JustAsking]

...Look at some of the countries in that list, many of them spend less per pupil but achieve better results, there are other variables which need to be considered. I agree that a fixation merely on the fiscal will probably end up in a stalemate but until that,and declining parental responsibility are addressed it's hard to see how things will improve.

Dong,
I agree that to concentrate solely on funding is a gross oversimplification. There is plenty of data even in US schools that show that quality of education is not totally dependent on funding. New Hampshire used to be notorious for its very low per capita funding but managed to get excellent academic results. Having said that, however, there are clearly situations where more funding to certain schools would make a difference. When kids just don't have textbooks or musical instruments, etc., opportunities are limited.

 

[Lex]

...
If I am the 3rd highest country in the world in spending per pupil, and my educational results are falling, and I decide spending MORE money trying to effect a change, then again I am nuts. I need to try something different, ANYTHING!...

We should start by having a CULTURAL (American) respect for Educators. Teaching is still seen as a job that anyone can do and that mostly stay-at-home moms do when their kids reach school age.

Other countries ourperform us in education because they revere teachers in their culture. Here, the average teacher can expect to earn $31000. The doctors, lawyers that the teacher taught will out earn him/her in a few years. It's sad.

• Teacher $31,408
• Researcher(non-technical) $35,769
• Management Trainee $39,501
• Registered Nurse $44,345
• Accountant (public) $45,518
• Field Engineer $51,162

The NEA website has an area where you can compare teacher salaries to othe professions. I left the classroom as I could not afford to stay there. My last year, with a Master's degree I made $34,000. If they would pay me what I make now to go back and teach students, I probably would.

Finally, just because you are spending more does not mean you are spending enough. Our students are WAY behind the rest of the world in achievement. Please read The World is Flat for more.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

We should start by having a CULTURAL (American) respect for Educators. Teaching is still seen as a job that anyone can do and that mostly stay-at-home moms do when their kids reach school age.

Other countries ourperform us in education because they revere teachers in their culture. Here, the average teacher can expect to earn $31000. The doctors, lawyers that the teacher taught will out earn him/her in a few years. It's sad.

• Teacher $31,408
• Researcher(non-technical) $35,769
• Management Trainee $39,501
• Registered Nurse $44,345
• Accountant (public) $45,518
• Field Engineer $51,162

The NEA website has an area where you can compare teacher salaries to othe professions. I left the classroom as I could not afford to stay there. My last year, with a Master's degree I made $34,000. If they would pay me what I make now to go back and teach students, I probably would.

Finally, just because you are spending more does not mean you are spending enough. Our students are WAY behind the rest of the world in achievement. Please read The World is Flat for more.

Inadvertently (I would guess) you are making my point better than I.

We spend a ton of money, third in the world yet we have low teacher salaries and rat shit and no heating/AC in schools. Think about it, thats completely wack.

How are you going to convince anyone to give more money when the money being spent now is clearly being wasted?

A 100 years ago kids were better educated in rural one room farm houses. I believe in colonial times kids knew Greek, Latin, and French.

 

[Lex]

...

How are you going to convince anyone to give more money when the money being spent now is clearly being wasted?

...

Approximately 65-70% of district funds go to salaries. This says to me, that they are underfunded. Think about it.

It's like saying that 80% of my income goes to living costs. It could mean that I am overspending and living above my means (if I make $75000), or it could mean that I am grossing underpaid and/or impoverished (if I make $12000).

 

[chico8]

A 100 years ago kids were better educated in rural one room farm houses. I believe in colonial times kids knew Greek, Latin, and French.

100 years ago the percentage of kids who went past 4th grade was extremely small. Those who had to work, worked and those who weren't bright enough or didn't want to study worked too. You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Dave NoCal]

My opposition to school vouchers is based on:
1. Believeing they are frequently used as a pretense for an underlying agenda of defunding public education.
2. Being adamant about separation of church and state. As a a gay person, I have objections to my tax dollars funding organizations that can legally discriminate against me in the use of those tax dollars.
3. Believing that, at their most benign, they are an attempt to put a bandaid on a much bigger set of problems that include;
a. Widespread societal contempt for teachers and education ("Those that can't do teach." "My kid beat up your honor student").
b. An economic/taxation system that continues to increase the disparity between rich and poor and is structured to require two incomes to maintain a family (ie. lots of underpaid drones for the capitalistic system, the U.S's true religion).
c. An unresoved issue on how we provide opportunity to children with special needs AND provide optimal learning environments for both the average and the gifted.
4. A belief that public education gives children access to a social world that is wider and more pluralistic than what many parents want or provide and public schools make children visible to the system in cases of abuse.
Dave

 

[Lordpendragon]

When something is free, it tends to be less valued. Vouchers would at least make people see the value of their education and then have higher expectations of recieving value for money. Good teachers would be greatly valued and the bad ones (yes there are bad ones) would have to go. You can't sack a teacher in Europe for being shit at their job.

Secondly, where you see lower funding producing better results, particularly in developing nations ime, education is a means to an end, a better life and prospects. When you think you have it all anyway, what worth do you give to being educated?

 

[JustAsking]

My opposition to school vouchers is based on:
...
Dave

Cogent and eloquent.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

I put out the challenge before, and only got one response. For anyone who sees the schools where they live as a failure, what have you personally done to make those schools better? Attended any school board meetings? Spoken to any of the teachers? The administration? Asked the principal, "What can I do to help?"

I see the public school system as in trouble here in Oregon, where school years are now three weeks shorter in some districts due to the legislature refusing to keep funding above inflation.

I'm married to a teacher. I occasionally volunteer time as a physical education instructor and science guest speaker. My wife and I occasionally donate personal items and money for worthy causes in the schools. I have attended school board meetings, read the teacher's union newsletter and generally maintain an interest in public education issues.

I am dismayed by so many lame attempts by the right to blame teachers and schools for the failure of so many students to succeed in academics.

 

[DC_DEEP]

<...>
I am dismayed by so many lame attempts by the right to blame teachers and schools for the failure of so many students to succeed in academics.

Speedo, thanks for all your contributions. I concur with your dismay about the "complaints but no contributions" group. And you and your wife can certainly believe and understand my comments about working 14 hour days for a measly $18k the first year and $20k the second year.

 

[Lex]

Speedo, thanks for all your contributions. I concur with your dismay about the "complaints but no contributions" group. And you and your wife can certainly believe and understand my comments about working 14 hour days for a measly $18k the first year and $20k the second year.

Kids only spend about 25-30% of their time in front of teachers.

 

[dong20]

Kids only spend about 25-30% of their time in front of teachers.

Clearly I went to the wrong kind of schools.

 

[Freddie53]

Clearly I went to the wrong kind of schools.

In regards to Lex's comment that only about 25 to 30 % of their time in front of teachers. School instructional day in most states is six hours. That does not include lunch, recess, passing times. There are 24 hours in a day. Six hours out of 24 hours is only 25 % of each day. But what about the number of days students are in school. In my state that number is 180 days. The teachers work more days than that, but the students are there only 180 days per year. There are 365 days in a year. That is about half of the days of the year. So in reality students have only 13 % of their total hours of a single year in front of teachers teaching the lessons. And we are assuming that all teachers teach the entire six hours.

Teachers have 13 % of the students' time.
Parents are responsible for the rest.

So if we want to place blame mathematically, parents are at 87 % fault for the failure of their children to become educated responsible citizens. Teachers can only be at fault for 13 %.

Bottom line: Parents have been, are now, and always will be the primary adults in education and teaching children to become educatied and responsible citizens when they come of age................

 

[SpeedoGuy]

We should start by having a CULTURAL (American) respect for Educators. Teaching is still seen as a job that anyone can do and that mostly stay-at-home moms do when their kids reach school age.

Lex's comment really hits at the root of the problem in U.S. education as I perceive it. Respect about school and academics is the most important consideration after adequate funding, perhaps even trumping funding. I think Americans could gain alot by adopting an attitude that knowledge is a virtue in its own right, not simply a path to quick wealth or a distraction from school sports. I'm not hopeful this will happen anytime soon, though.

My wife doesn't work for a wealthy school district so my views are biased by what I overhear from her and her peers. I really do discern an ethic that academics are not to be taken seriously in U.S. pop culture. Teachers are perceived as chumps: failures in the economic rat race. Just as bad, kids who actually study and learn will soon find themselves labeled as "nerds", "geeks", or "barneys." by their underachieving peers.

It takes a strong young man or woman to stand up and excel in the classroom despite peer pressure that compels mediocrity or failure. I did, but, believe me, I was made to pay for it. I hope for better for future generations of American students. I won't just give up.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

Lex's comment really hits at the root of the problem in U.S. education as I perceive it. Respect about school and academics is the most important consideration after adequate funding, perhaps even trumping funding. I think Americans could gain alot by adopting an attitude that knowledge is a virtue in its own right, not simply a path to quick wealth or a distraction from school sports. I'm not hopeful this will happen anytime soon, though.

My wife doesn't work for a wealthy school district so my views are biased by what I overhear from her and her peers. I really do discern an ethic that academics are not to be taken seriously in U.S. pop culture. Teachers are perceived as chumps: failures in the economic rat race. Just as bad, kids who actually study and learn will soon find themselves labeled as "nerds", "geeks", or "barneys." by their underachieving peers.

It takes a strong young man or woman to stand up and excel in the classroom despite peer pressure that compels mediocrity or failure. I did, but, believe me, I was made to pay for it. I hope for better for future generations of American students. I won't just give up.

Speedoguy, bingo. I absolutely think this is true, virtually every word. How did this attitude become manifest? America, for most of our history has been about education and now, that tradition is being pissed on.

2 weeks ago the US opened up its yearly immigration quota for highly skilled technical labor. HIgh paid jobs in high tech industry. 85000 was the number and it took 24 hours to fill the quota. India, China, Vietnam, Eastern Europeans. Sad that we could not fill from within. And these were not the stereotypical low pay for foreigners we here about these were big dollar jobs.

My first generation of immigrant parents beat it into my noggin *go to school get a degree, get educated," endless droning into my ear. But they were right.

I have profound admiration and respect for those who seek to better their careers/lives by sacrificing and going to become better educated.

Great thread.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Speedoguy, bingo. I absolutely think this is true, virtually every word. How did this attitude become manifest? America, for most of our history has been about education and now, that tradition is being pissed on.

Thanks, it really represents my heartfelt feelings and observations.

I really don't know if the U.S. was ever an academic stronghold in the past but it clearly isn't now. The poor performance of U.S. students against their peers in other industrialized nations should be a national shame and embarrassment. If our Olympic athletes performed as poorly there'd be a huge outcry accompanied by an immediate effort to fix the problem. Yet when half our students can't find Canada on a map we seem to just yawn, shrug our collective shoulders and mutter "whatever."

We have the resources to create an educational system on a par with any in the world but we don't bother. We just don't have the will. That's the greater shame.

 

[Dave NoCal]

A population armed with knowledge and critical thinking skills is disadvantageous to large corporations and the politicians they own.
Dave

 

[Lex]

Speedoguy, bingo. I absolutely think this is true, virtually every word. How did this attitude become manifest? America, for most of our history has been about education and now, that tradition is being pissed on.

....

Education has never been highly respected in our nation, which is why teachers have NEVER been paid on par with doctors, lawyers and other professional people.

America was traditionally seen as a place where the educated went on to become our scholars, doctors, lawyers; the ambitious could invent something and become rich; and the poor and/or less educated could work in factories or in other blue collar segments and earn as much as the educated, thus ensuring a good life for most. Education was seen as requisite only if you planned on becoming MORE educated; it was not seen as a requirement for financial success in and of itself. Skilled laborers could make $50-75K a year, so why go to school for 12 years, plus 4-8 years of college and graduate school if you can make as much if not more while not attending school for as long?

Over the past 30 years, the market for skilled laborers has evaporated as technology, corporate outsourcing, and a rapidly shifting global economy has changed the landscape in ways unimaginable even in the 1970s. In today's global economy, students can not afford to grow up without internet access and a sense of a planetary economy and an interconnectedness of us all.

Other countries (India, especially) get this. Surveys will show you that all schools have the internet. What these surveys do not say is that most schools' internet connection is limited to a single computer in the main office. How many American children still do not have internet access? How many other countries broadcast the internet as a public service rather than an economic privilege?

I want to make sure that we do not try to blame any immigrant population for the decline of respect in Education in America. In fact, most immigrant children that *I* have taught and worked with have MORE respect for education that our "native" Americans.

PLEASE. I implore anyone who care to read The World Is Flat. it talks about all of these issues.

HERE is a video where the author talks about the first 3 chapters.

Thanks, it really represents my heartfelt feelings and observations.

I really don't know if the U.S. was ever an academic stronghold in the past but it clearly isn't now. The poor performance of U.S. students against their peers in other industrialized nations should be a national shame and embarrassment. ....

We have the resources to create an educational system on a par with any in the world but we don't bother. We just don't have the will. That's the greater shame.

Agreed.

From the World is Flat:

• CEOs report that when they send jobs abroad, they save 75% on wages and get a 100% increase in productivity.
• In China, Bill Gates is Britney Spears; In America, Britney Spears is Britney Spears.
• 35% of American 8th graders score well on math tests, compared to 60-70% of Foreign students.

 

[LeeEJ]

A population armed with knowledge and critical thinking skills is disadvantageous to large corporations and the politicians they own.
Dave

I agree. "Keep 'em stupid, keep 'em busy, and keep 'em in debt," the bosses would say.