bisexuality in females and heterosexual men

[Matthew]

Truth.

Word. :wink:

 

[SpeedoGuy]

But I don't understand why you'd simply assume the number was 'fewer' especially since you admittedly 'don't have a clue'.

Ah, its because when otherwise uninformed of the facts on a topic my usual bias is to apply my version of "Occam's Razor". By that I mean I usually assume that the potentially complex answer to a difficult question tends toward the mundane and banal rather than the dramatic. So that's why I tend to assume a lower proportion than greater.

 

[LivingHell]

How does the culture of gang bangs, so prevalent in many of our macho sports like rugby and football, where 3,4,5 guys take on one girl fit into this picture?

 

[B_Stronzo]

Finally, thanks for this thread, Stronzo. You have indeed made some excellent points that would be hard to counter. You seem to have cornered the traditional female bisexuality "myth"..

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude

My sincere apologies for truncating that remarkable critique but you've caught precisely the point I was attempting feebly to make with far greater articulation than I could have ever possibly mustered. You've left me nigh onto speechless; a considerable feat all by itself.

I've read everything you wrote and those who cannot see the reason and clarity in it (in my considered opinion) are simply refusing to face the truth.

Sometimes this place is so much more than a silly message board.

Many kind thanks.

Stronzo

 

[BIGBULL29]

Thanks again, Stronzo. I appreciate the compliment. That post needs to be edited and polished up somewhat. LOL. I do hope I got the point across. Society does need to hear what I said therein.

It's more women who are "closer" to being either gay or straight, as opposed to men, who seem to jump all over the sexual orientation board much more frequently than their female counterparts. Most straight men refuse to share any homosexual thoughts with anyone. That is a fact. Does that mean all these men are truly gay? Absolutely not! But, I think even the straightest of men (yes, there are men in society who are naturally very straight) have had a "little gay thought" at least once, or twice, or....at least a couple dozen of times. How could they not, considering the sexual nature of the male animal. I just can't say this is the case for many for most straight females (ok, maybe one or two when she wanted to be comforted during PMS). If many straight men believe that many straight women are actually bisexual, they know absolutely nothing about female sexuality, let alone their own.

 

[dongalong]

Here are some of my observations, these are generalisations that talk about the majority of men and women that I know:

Men are turned on by visual stimulants more than women, that is why we like porn and watching girls lezzing off!

Most women I have met don't like watching porn and disapprove the fact we like to watch it.

Most of the bisexual girls that I know have been introduced into this catagory by their boyfriends, because he wanted to watch or have 2 women at once.

Women are more turned on cerebrally, reading erotic stories is a bigger turn on than watching hardcore porn for them.
Women have different kinds of fantasies from men that are more based on how things will make them feel.

For the above reasons I don't think that watching 2 guys enjoying each other's bodies would give much cerebral stimulation to women. That is why they don't encourage it.

However I can see why the idea that having physical pleasure with someone who understands exactly a women's sexual needs (how many men do?) would be a big cerebral turn on. Add to that the nice feeling they get from turning on their boyfriend and the social acceptance of female bisexuality - there is little to discourage trying it.

 

[Shelby]

insecure

a theme? projecting perhaps? the gruff misogynism just a shield?

it's ok doc, it's ok

we like you

 

[B_Stronzo]

Here are some of my observations, these are generalisations that talk about the majority of men and women that I know:

Men are turned on by visual stimulants more than women, that is why we like porn and watching girls lezzing off!

Most women I have met don't like watching porn and disapprove the fact we like to watch it.

Most of the bisexual girls that I know have been introduced into this catagory by their boyfriends, because he wanted to watch or have 2 women at once.

Women are more turned on cerebrally, reading erotic stories is a bigger turn on than watching hardcore porn for them.
Women have different kinds of fantasies from men that are more based on how things will make them feel.

For the above reasons I don't think that watching 2 guys enjoying each other's bodies would give much cerebral stimulation to women. That is why they don't encourage it.

Interesting observations dongalong. PBS had a wonderful program on last night that suggests the reverse of the "cerebral" myth about women and sexuality and proved conclusively that women are as sexually charged as men. It's, again, socialization which has made you believe the stereotypical myth. Also, from their studies, women have as many sexual partners as men do. They're simply loathe to talk about it since it may label them "loose".

This is what women have to deal with still. It's tedious.

I have a question (since your identity is anonymous here);

As an adolescent did you ever have a male-on-male experience? Please be honest even if you're disinclinced to be.

For the above reasons I don't think that watching 2 guys enjoying each other's bodies would give much cerebral stimulation to women. That is why they don't encourage it.

I know for a fact (as I've preciously stated - as has madame_zora) that 'cerebral stimulation' be damned. Watching two guys does make them horny.

Who 'doesn't encourage it'?

 

[dongalong]

Interesting observations dongalong. PBS had a wonderful program on last night that suggests the reverse of the "cerebral" myth about women and sexuality and proved conclusively that women are as sexually charged as men. It's, again, socialization which has made you believe the stereotypical myth. Also, from their studies, women have as many sexual partners as men do. They're simply loathe to talk about it since it may label them "loose".

This is what women have to deal with still. It's tedious.


I have a question (since your identity is anonymous here);

As an adolescent did you ever have a male-on-male experience? Please be honest even if you're disinclinced to be.

Maybe I've lived a much more sheltered life than some people on this site, I haven't had a male-on-male experience, I was too shy to get any experience as an adolescent.


I know for a fact (as I've preciously stated - as has madame_zora) that 'cerebral stimulation' be damned. Watching two guys does make them horny.

Who 'doesn't encourage it'?

I haven't met a women honest enough to admit your last statement.
Is that the general consensus or just the opinion of some more liberal and open minded ladies? Those are the kind of women I prefer, maybe my views would change if only I could meet one.

The fact that there are some women willing to encourage MMF action could mean that some time in the future the tables will be turned and us guys will have to suck cock to turn on the women that we desire

:3some: :adam4: :clit:

 

[madame_zora]

I haven't met a women honest enough to admit your last statement.
Is that the general consensus or just the opinion of some more liberal and open minded ladies? Those are the kind of women I prefer, maybe my views would change if only I could meet one.

The fact that there are some women willing to encourage MMF action could mean that some time in the future the tables will be turned and us guys will have to suck cock to turn on the women that we desire

:3some: :adam4: :clit:

You won't meet many either, look at how few women there are on this board and even amoung us there are only a very few who are comfortable speaking frankly about our carnal desires. This illustrates the reality of our behavior though, not our desire. The two things are completely different.

It's dangerous and usually quite wrong to take the opinions of a very small group of people (women who are open about sexuality) and apply it to the masses, though. No one knows how "all women feel" on any given subject, so it would do us all some good to take a step back and realise that women are individuals, just like men. The only way we could "know" if there are as many women as men who would be into same sex exploration by the opposite gender would be to study a society that was exactly like ours, except with the gender roles reversed. Obviously, such a place does not exist.

When women are taught from birth that they are to be "good girls" and keep their pants up, everything in our sexual development is affected by that, and that is social development, not biological in the least. I was lucky- I was in school in the 70s and we talked about birth control options in school. We discussed (albeit very briefly) homosexuality, and our environment was less repressive in general. Bear in mind, I was in a very small rural school- we were hardly as advanced as what I would expect schools in bigger cities were like. Even with the turning tides of the times though, when I got out into the real world, I learned quickly that I was a slut. I no longer mind that title, it only means that stupid insecure men think that a women doing the exact same thing that they do themselves is morally wrong. I'm always happy when they identify themselves, so I know who to avoid (like the plague).

Of course women have as many partners as men! Who do you think the men are fucking? Wow, our society is so horribly hobbled by our insecurities. I swear, I'll say it over and over- this is ALL, EXCLUSIVELY about men's competitive nature, and has almost nothing to do with the women being discussed. Men don't like to think that the woman they are fucking has been with other men and knows the difference between good sex and bad, and this is the basis for every cultural injustice we suffer. Put us down, keep us down so that they can feel better about themselves- it's positively disgusting. If you are reading this, go hug a woman today! Oh, and don't jack off in her purse.

I see this whole bisexuality chic thing as just another in a long list of ways men have objectified us to remove our humanity. It makes me angry, but then it just makes me sad when I see how many women permit it by playing into their hands. Believe me, I'm far more angry at the women who allow it than the men who ask. If we stood up for ourselves once in a fucking blue moon, we might not get trampled on quite so much. Oh, and trust me, we'd be a lot better sexually satisfied.:tongue:

 

[naughty]

Preach it, Sistah. Preach it!

You won't meet many either, look at how few women there are on this board and even amoung us there are only a very few who are comfortable speaking frankly about our carnal desires. This illustrates the reality of our behavior though, not our desire. The two things are completely different.

It's dangerous and usually quite wrong to take the opinions of a very small group of people (women who are open about sexuality) and apply it to the masses, though. No one knows how "all women feel" on any given subject, so it would do us all some good to take a step back and realise that women are individuals, just like men. The only way we could "know" if there are as many women as men who would be into same sex exploration by the opposite gender would be to study a society that was exactly like ours, except with the gender roles reversed. Obviously, such a place does not exist.

When women are taught from birth that they are to be "good girls" and keep their pants up, everything in our sexual development is affected by that, and that is social development, not biological in the least. I was lucky- I was in school in the 70s and we talked about birth control options in school. We discussed (albeit very briefly) homosexuality, and our environment was less repressive in general. Bear in mind, I was in a very small rural school- we were hardly as advanced as what I would expect schools in bigger cities were like. Even with the turning tides of the times though, when I got out into the real world, I learned quickly that I was a slut. I no longer mind that title, it only means that stupid insecure men think that a women doing the exact same thing that they do themselves is morally wrong. I'm always happy when they identify themselves, so I know who to avoid (like the plague).

Of course women have as many partners as men! Who do you think the men are fucking? Wow, our society is so horribly hobbled by our insecurities. I swear, I'll say it over and over- this is ALL, EXCLUSIVELY about men's competitive nature, and has almost nothing to do with the women being discussed. Men don't like to think that the woman they are fucking has been with other men and knows the difference between good sex and bad, and this is the basis for every cultural injustice we suffer. Put us down, keep us down so that they can feel better about themselves- it's positively disgusting. If you are reading this, go hug a woman today! Oh, and don't jack off in her purse.

I see this whole bisexuality chic thing as just another in a long list of ways men have objectified us to remove our humanity. It makes me angry, but then it just makes me sad when I see how many women permit it by playing into their hands. Believe me, I'm far more angry at the women who allow it than the men who ask. If we stood up for ourselves once in a fucking blue moon, we might not get trampled on quite so much. Oh, and trust me, we'd be a lot better sexually satisfied.:tongue:

 

[Dr Rock]

a theme? projecting perhaps? the gruff misogynism just a shield?

i have wondered ... other times though, i'm convinced that you're just trolling

 

[dong20]

Caveat : Pretty much all what I'm saying below relates to men too.

When women are taught from birth that they are to be "good girls" and keep their pants up, everything in our sexual development is affected by that........I learned quickly that I was a slut. I no longer mind that title, it only means that stupid insecure men think that a women doing the exact same thing that they do themselves is morally wrong. I'm always happy when they identify themselves, so I know who to avoid (like the plague).

As you should, I remember at school the 'sluts' being pointed out to me, by girls as often as boys as I recall. It often made me want to get to know them, not because I wanted sex; well not always and before you say aha! this worked both ways, albeit with different terminology. It was simply because it meant they stuck two fingers up at convention and this very fact made them more interesting, at least I thought so. Sometimes it did, sometimes of course they were just sluts....:biggrin1:

It's dangerous and usually quite wrong to take the opinions of a very small group of people (women who are open about sexuality) and apply it to the masses, though. No one knows how "all women feel" on any given subject, so it would do us all some good to take a step back and realise that women are individuals, just like men.

..............................

...I swear, I'll say it over and over- this is ALL, EXCLUSIVELY about men's competitive nature, and has almost nothing to do with the women being discussed. Men don't like to think that the woman they are fucking has been with other men and knows the difference between good sex and bad, and this is the basis for every cultural injustice we suffer. Put us down, keep us down so that they can feel better about themselves- it's positively disgusting. If you are reading this, go hug a woman today! Oh, and don't jack off in her purse.

Tosh..:tongue: I have to disagree with such sweeping generalisations, especially in view of your first comment. You and I can only speak with authority about men or women we have known, have you met every man? I ask as I don't recall meeting you and I'm sure I would.

In general I don't think people enjoy or seek comparison with former partners, and certainly not unfavourably. I also don't think that sentiment applies solely to men nor do I believe such objectification is as gender specific as you suggest. If a woman wants better she should say so, while there's no need for insensitivity if she wants her partner to try X, Y or Z she should ask, just as a man should. If consent isn't willingly given then that's an end to it.

When women asked me if I could try something, and they have, where did I think she got the idea for Gods sake?...Readers Digest!! Any man who attempts to deny this inevitability is only fooling himself and is a fool for doing so.

Of course many (too many) men behave in such a way, and I also believe many (too many) women encourage or at least condone it by passive aquiesence. Often though the true power dynamic in such situations is not always as it appears.

I see this whole bisexuality chic thing as just another in a long list of ways men have objectified us to remove our humanity. It makes me angry, but then it just makes me sad when I see how many women permit it by playing into their hands. Believe me, I'm far more angry at the women who allow it than the men who ask. If we stood up for ourselves once in a fucking blue moon, we might not get trampled on quite so much. Oh, and trust me, we'd be a lot better sexually satisfied.:tongue:

I agree with you, I already said I think women are too often their own worst enemies. I want women to speak out, to stand up for what they want, even if I don't always like what they say. The demure girly at home baking cookies while waiting for me to get home from hunter gathering....I don't think so.

When a woman knowingly allows herself to be objectified and demeaned in expectation of receiving genuine affection or even worse respect from her partner then she's being a bloody fool and will almost certainly receive neither. Only by doing the precise opposite will she truly have a right to demand both. A woman who knows she is a woman has no need to 'prove' it.

Achieve that and we will all be better sexually satisified.:tongue:

 

[B_Stronzo]

I see this whole bisexuality chic thing as just another in a long list of ways men have objectified us to remove our humanity. It makes me angry, but then it just makes me sad when I see how many women permit it by playing into their hands.

mz? Simply awe-inspiring.:wink:

...there are some women willing to encourage MMF action could mean that some time in the future the tables will be turned and us guys will have to suck cock to turn on the women that we desire.

dongalong?

There are plenty of 'you guys' out there already sucking cock and having yours sucked as well (even without the presence of a woman).

You guys just won't break the code of silence to which mercurialbliss earlier referred.

And you didn't answer my direct question.:33:

Tosh..:tongue: I have to disagree with such sweeping generalisations, especially in view of your first comment. You and I can only speak with authority about men or women we have known, have you met every man? I ask as I don't recall meeting you and I'm sure I would.

In light of your broad knowledge of that poster I suspect you know she'd never make a blanket statement about "all" straight men. However her point is well-taken d20 and I'm certain it's the rule more than the exception.

 

[dong20]

In light of your broad knowledge of that poster I suspect you know she'd never make a blanket statement about "all" straight men. However her point is well-taken d20 and I'm certain it's the rule more than the exception.

Yes of course, and I hope she knows I greatly respect her views but that doesn't mean I'm obligated to make it easy for her?:tongue::biggrin1:

 

[B_Stronzo]

I can personally GUARANTEE you she does...

 

[madame_zora]

Dong, I love ya to death, and I'd never expect you to make it easy for me!

What I was talking about in the quote you highlighted, about our social attitudes, was just that. No, I didn't mean to infer that ALL MEN FEEL a certain way, that would be disrespectful and untrue. I meant that male vs. female socialisation has occured in that manner. Specifically I meant that women live in a world where we are not the "chosen gender", so pick a complaint that human beings deal with, and just realise that adding "I'm a woman" to that makes it worse, in most cases. Racial prejudice, religous intolerance, homophobia- well Yoko and John said it best, "Woman is the nigger of the world". They make us paint our face and dance then complain that we're not worldly enough to be their friend...

What I like about your generation is that it's a chance to do something better. I often find when I'm talking to a younger person that they haven't experienced the same social stygmas, at least not to the same degrees that I have. There has always been an audience for men who want to watch women "lezzing it up" because it's always been okay to objectify women. I'm not saying men are never objectified, or that all men do it. I'm saying it's socially acceptable for men to do it, just like it's socially acceptable for them to BE sluts without being insulted.

Now to return a volley:

As you should, I remember at school the 'sluts' being pointed out to me, by girls as often as boys as I recall. It often made me want to get to know them, not because I wanted sex; well not always and before you say aha! this worked both ways, albeit with different terminology. It was simply because it meant they stuck two fingers up at convention and this very fact made them more interesting, at least I thought so. Sometimes it did, sometimes of course they were just sluts....:biggrin1:

Yeah, times have changed *somewhat* from when we had to wear As on our chests, but the word is definitely still meant as an insult, just like nigger. Would you say "Sometimes of course they were just niggers?" I know you wouldn't, and I know that that was supposed to be funny, but I'm just pointing out how rampant the gender differences are in our thinking that we don't even recognise ourselves when we are holding women to a higher standard.

I always like the people who rebel against the commonly accepted norms too though, so I know what you mean. I always wanted to get the know the "bad girls" because they were usually more intelligent- being able to make decisions for themselves and all. My mother was big on female empowerment, so I didn't grow up believing I was less valuable as a person than a man. MOST women do, although I doubt that is the intention of their parents.

edit- Or that they recognise it themselves.

 

[rawbone8]

I've been following this thread and agree that there is a lot of hipocracy in the way that people acknowledge bisexual females as being fashionably acceptable but still regard men who are bisexual as "lesser".

Outside of pop culture and porn (fantasy), the question I have is how many "out" bisexuals do we really know? It isn't an orientation that announces itself much in the social circles I know, compared to self-identified gays for example. The women I have known who are bisexual have generally confided it to me when we were in a dating relationship. Other than that, I would not have known whether I knew any women or men who date or hook up with both sexes. If they did, it seems it was done discreetly.

The men and women I know who are "out" bisexuals have mentioned that they sometimes find that their sexual orientation bothers some in the gay community, as it does with some in the straight community. They sometimes feel like they are regarded as fence-sitters. Small-minded insecurity and intolerance can be found anywhere, not just among heterosexuals, though I'll grant you the lion's share resides there.

The FFM threesome agenda fantasy that straight guys have is a riff on the harem fantasy. Total ego trip. Orgies are a fantasy too, but much less personal than a threesome. I've never had the experience, but have had the fantasies.

 

[dong20]

Dong, I love ya to death, and I'd never expect you to make it easy for me!

Likewise....:tongue::redface:

Yoko and John said it best, "Woman is the nigger of the world". They make us paint our face and dance then complain that we're not worldly enough to be their friend...

I've never had the popular fawning acceptance of their pithy proclaimations, but it seems I missed the better ones, such as that one. Excellent. After all, Lennon was mostly a loudmouthed Scouser, as am I.:tongue:

What I like about your generation is that it's a chance to do something better. I often find when I'm talking to a younger person that they haven't experienced the same social stygmas, at least not to the same degrees that I have. There has always been an audience for men who want to watch women "lezzing it up" because it's always been okay to objectify women. I'm not saying men are never objectified, or that all men do it. I'm saying it's socially acceptable for men to do it, just like it's socially acceptable for them to BE sluts without being insulted.

My generation? If I read that right, I'm flattered but, alas, you are labouring under a misaprehension.

But you are right, objectification is endemic in society as a whole, I just aim to interact with it as little as possible these days so I may be a little out of touch!! But yes, I have seen a fair few stygma roaming wild, free and unchecked in our midst.

Yeah, times have changed *somewhat* from when we had to wear As on our chests, but the word is definitely still meant as an insult, just like nigger. Would you say "Sometimes of course they were just niggers?" I know you wouldn't, and I know that that was supposed to be funny, but I'm just pointing out how rampant the gender differences are in our thinking that we don't even recognise ourselves when we are holding women to a higher standard.

It's reassuring that you know (I hope) that was not representive of how I think.

<aside>
It's interesting that the epithet is not new. Slut in early English history (14th century) had no sexual connotation and earlier in Chaucers time sluttish meant a slovely man. It's present 'meaning' has been around since the 18th century and almost exlusively aimed at women since well before that.
</aside>

Like most things the word will eventually mutate into another meaning, fashion will dictate the new terminology but I accept that the underlying bias will not be so easily eradicated.

I always like the people who rebel against the commonly accepted norms too though, so I know what you mean. I always wanted to get the know the "bad girls" because they were usually more intelligent- being able to make decisions for themselves and all....

Yes, it's a typified to such inanities as "ladies don't drink pints" that I recall growing up, those ladies were my favourites and I don't drink pints..

Now to return a volley:

As you should, I remember at school the 'studs' being pointed out to me, by boys as often as girls as I recall. It often made me want to get to know them, not because I wanted sex; well not always and before you say aha! this worked both ways, albeit with different terminology. It was simply because it meant they stuck two fingers up at convention and this very fact made them more interesting, at least I thought so. Sometimes it did, sometimes of course they were just studs....:biggrin1:

No, it doesn't quite work does it? Touche - 15 All (Wimbledon and all).:biggrin1:

 

[dongalong]