I'd pretty much say I'm like your daughter, Zora ... of course that way of thinking gets me in trouble (and heartache sometimes) ... a person can't easily stretch their heart and/or body that many ways at once. If I see/meet someone I really like and enjoy and want to be with, yes I'll pursue them ... of course, I have my beloved Goddess, Kris, and a wonderful, caring man in Chaz ... it's like, I don't wanna leave any of the other loves I have behind at all, but .... do ya get what I'm saying though?
Bisexuality
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I'd pretty much say I'm like your daughter, Zora ... of course that way of thinking gets me in trouble (and heartache sometimes) ... a person can't easily stretch their heart and/or body that many ways at once. If I see/meet someone I really like and enjoy and want to be with, yes I'll pursue them ... of course, I have my beloved Goddess, Kris, and a wonderful, caring man in Chaz ... it's like, I don't wanna leave any of the other loves I have behind at all, but .... do ya get what I'm saying though?
Years ago my connection with another guy proved to me without a doubt that bisexuality exists. 50/50 (?) but for sure not wider spread than 49/51. Beginning as a young teenager he never culled gay or str8 sex and enjoyed ample amounts of both. He felt he carried a heavy weight on his shoulders always being torn between the two. But, and this adds to the mystery, he 'felt' he couldn't enjoy sex with a female properly unless he had recently (like the night before) had a penis up his ass. He was well known in both gay and str8 circles throughout the city for his large endowments (8.25 - 8.5 length and 6.5+ girth) as well as his out-going personality. These attributes provided him with a constant choice of selections for his demanding libido. Around the age of 20, his parents divorced and left him the paid for middle class house. His only sibling had married and left.
For six years I helped provide him with his male/male desires and only in one incident, to my knowledge, did he select female over male. But, probably, I'm giving tmi. Making a long story short -- I believe he was honest in saying that he honestly didn't know which he was, gay or straight.
For six years I helped provide him with his male/male desires and only in one incident, to my knowledge, did he select female over male. But, probably, I'm giving tmi. Making a long story short -- I believe he was honest in saying that he honestly didn't know which he was, gay or straight.
madame_zora
Sexy Member
Yikes! How will I ever show my face in front of Obi? 
My daughter is a hilarious person, but she likens "coming out" to going to your first AA meeting. She says, if you have some reason to check out an AA meeting, other than for scholastic research, you're probably a falling-down drunk. Likewise, if you have suspicions about yourself being bisexual, you're a flaming homo- you're a gay as a gay pride parade, you have a rainbow pride tattoo just under the surface of your skin, etc, you get the picture. Most guys just REFUSE to admit that they aren't very aroused by women, but they like their company- THAT'S GAY!!!!!!!!! If you think women are awesome, they smell good, they make great friends, you relate to them more, you want to marry one and have kids because you just love women so much- BUT they don't really arouse you very much sexually, you're NOT, I repeat NOT NOT NOT bisexual!! You're a homo that's about to ruin the lives of everyone he encounters. If you have to fantasize about men to get off with a woman, that's not str8! or bi. That's just selfish! I'd say if people are suspicious about bisexuals, it's probably because so many gays abuse the term.
My daughter is a hilarious person, but she likens "coming out" to going to your first AA meeting. She says, if you have some reason to check out an AA meeting, other than for scholastic research, you're probably a falling-down drunk. Likewise, if you have suspicions about yourself being bisexual, you're a flaming homo- you're a gay as a gay pride parade, you have a rainbow pride tattoo just under the surface of your skin, etc, you get the picture. Most guys just REFUSE to admit that they aren't very aroused by women, but they like their company- THAT'S GAY!!!!!!!!! If you think women are awesome, they smell good, they make great friends, you relate to them more, you want to marry one and have kids because you just love women so much- BUT they don't really arouse you very much sexually, you're NOT, I repeat NOT NOT NOT bisexual!! You're a homo that's about to ruin the lives of everyone he encounters. If you have to fantasize about men to get off with a woman, that's not str8! or bi. That's just selfish! I'd say if people are suspicious about bisexuals, it's probably because so many gays abuse the term.
I'm still wondering if this bisexuality thing is also part of the sexual continuum. Maybe people are bi sometime in their life & then maybe straight & then maybe a combination of the two. I also think that who you have sex with is a limited way of thinking about this topic. To me it's more than who you have sex with,but rather it's about who you end up loving. I'm straight & I love a girl right now, but suppose I fell for some dude, would I be bisexual then or just loving some guy?
I'm scratching my head on this one.
I'm scratching my head on this one.
Lex
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Well, as Double Meat Whopper has said, sexuality is where your mind is, not where your cock is. A straight guy that only has sex with women while fantasizing about men is about as straight as Carson Kressley. I think most folk have some type of same-sex experience growing up like group masturbation, kissing, etc (I did not). If you have the capacity to love men and women beyond platonic love, then I feel you are bi-sexual. The sex part of it cannot be ignored, and I think its a runner-up to the emotional component.
SpermBoy-your question is a difficult one to answer becuase in America, we are socialized that men cannot and should not, under any circumstances, love each other unless it's a dad-son, brother-brother, grandfather-grandson relationship. Hence a feeling of intense love for a close friend can be seen by some as "gay." which I think is bullshit.
I have a close buddy--he's like a brother to me. We've known each other since the 8th grade and I love him like I can't explain. I am not IN LOVE with him and dont want to have sex with him and still I have a very deep emotional attachment to him that goes beyond what our society deems acceptable. Does my emotional cpaacity as a bi-sexual make these feelings possible or tolerable? My personal jury is still out on that one.
Does this make ANY sense?!?
SpermBoy-your question is a difficult one to answer becuase in America, we are socialized that men cannot and should not, under any circumstances, love each other unless it's a dad-son, brother-brother, grandfather-grandson relationship. Hence a feeling of intense love for a close friend can be seen by some as "gay." which I think is bullshit.
I have a close buddy--he's like a brother to me. We've known each other since the 8th grade and I love him like I can't explain. I am not IN LOVE with him and dont want to have sex with him and still I have a very deep emotional attachment to him that goes beyond what our society deems acceptable. Does my emotional cpaacity as a bi-sexual make these feelings possible or tolerable? My personal jury is still out on that one.
Does this make ANY sense?!?
I definitely believe in bisexuality, but like others here, I dont think it comes from just being able to get off with both genders. I mean, as far as physical stimulation goes, the body doesnt generally differentiate.
But if someone fantasizes about both sexes, and finds that they want to get emotionally close to people in both sexes, then that surely raises a flag.
My view overall though, is that bisexuality is an openminded take on things, not just a cop-out. Plus its hot, but thats beside the point i guess.
But if someone fantasizes about both sexes, and finds that they want to get emotionally close to people in both sexes, then that surely raises a flag.
My view overall though, is that bisexuality is an openminded take on things, not just a cop-out. Plus its hot, but thats beside the point i guess.
"SpermBoy-your question is a difficult one to answer becuase in America, we are socialized that men cannot and should not, under any circumstances, love each other unless it's a dad-son, brother-brother, grandfather-grandson relationship. Hence a feeling of intense love for a close friend can be seen by some as "gay." which I think is bullshit.
I have a close buddy--he's like a brother to me. We've known each other since the 8th grade and I love him like I can't explain. I am not IN LOVE with him and dont want to have sex with him and still I have a very deep emotional attachment to him that goes beyond what our society deems acceptable. Does my emotional cpaacity as a bi-sexual make these feelings possible or tolerable? My personal jury is still out on that one."
Does this make ANY sense?!?
Yeh, I don't think I understand this either. Suppose you fall in love with a person of the same gender? Like if a girl falls in love with another girl. It may be platonic but I think it's more complicated than that. Like when I was a little boy about 5 years old, my best friend was another little boy,Robbie. My mom always tells this story about when she asked me who I wanted to marry when I got older, I said I wanted to marry Robbie. And Robbie said the same thing about me. All the adults laughed,but my mom said that it was ok, that if I loved Robbie, I could marry him. I just think it's an interesting discussion because we don't have the language for certain kinds of relationships or society doesn't allow us to define these things.
I have a close buddy--he's like a brother to me. We've known each other since the 8th grade and I love him like I can't explain. I am not IN LOVE with him and dont want to have sex with him and still I have a very deep emotional attachment to him that goes beyond what our society deems acceptable. Does my emotional cpaacity as a bi-sexual make these feelings possible or tolerable? My personal jury is still out on that one."
Does this make ANY sense?!?
[post=290529]Quoted post[/post]
[/quote]Yeh, I don't think I understand this either. Suppose you fall in love with a person of the same gender? Like if a girl falls in love with another girl. It may be platonic but I think it's more complicated than that. Like when I was a little boy about 5 years old, my best friend was another little boy,Robbie. My mom always tells this story about when she asked me who I wanted to marry when I got older, I said I wanted to marry Robbie. And Robbie said the same thing about me. All the adults laughed,but my mom said that it was ok, that if I loved Robbie, I could marry him. I just think it's an interesting discussion because we don't have the language for certain kinds of relationships or society doesn't allow us to define these things.
Lex
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Agreed. My 2nd grader came home a few months ago and mentioned that one of her classmates had 2 mommies. I told her that there were all kinds of families--that some people lived with a mommy and daddy, some lived with grandparents or aunts, some had 2 mommies and some had 2 daddies.
I hope to raise my kids with the belief that all healthy actions between 2 consenting, loving adults are okay as long as the individuals involved are okay with it.
I guess I could say that I love my buddy like a brother, but since I don't have a brother--I'm not really sure what that should feel like. Your story is cute--I'm sure I could have easily said something similar as a child, although I'm sure it would nothave been so well-received.
I hope to raise my kids with the belief that all healthy actions between 2 consenting, loving adults are okay as long as the individuals involved are okay with it.
I guess I could say that I love my buddy like a brother, but since I don't have a brother--I'm not really sure what that should feel like. Your story is cute--I'm sure I could have easily said something similar as a child, although I'm sure it would nothave been so well-received.
I'm also hoping to raise my kids to be understanding and open. Of course that's my personal view, if whomever I marry has a problem...then things could get more interesting. Overall though, I think passing tolerance on to the next generation is what is needed to break down a lot of the barriers that some people feel the need to build *cough* George Bush *cough*.
madame_zora
Sexy Member
Yes, of course, I was remiss in not emphasizing "closeted gays". I think the term biSEXUAL makes specific reference to sexual preference, not necessarliy emotional. I would certainly hope most of us are bi-emotional, or at least could be with the right person, but bisexual (to me) addresses who you like to have sex with.
I think it's more complicated for men, because at the begining, everyone is corraled into thinking "str8", but if girls are gay, they are more easily accepted. For men to admit being gay takes a bigger step away from our societal mainstream, which can be frightening. For this reason, a lot of men who will EVENTUALLY be gay first come out as "bisexual" because it feels less threatening both in how they will be received (family members will think one day they'll just "snap out of it") and how much they will have to adjust their own views of themselves and the future they've come to believe they want. While I understand this process extremely well (I was married to such a man), it in no way negates the impact on the unsuspecting women who get treated to the whirlwind of emotions and abuse while he's "figuring it all out". People who are in crisis of any kind have a tendancy to become extremely self centered, thinking their trauma is so much more important than anything else going on in the world, that they scarecly even consider what they are doing to their partner. For anyone considering entering into a relationship with a woman while they are unsure, I would hope they would read one of my millions of posts on this issue and save everyone the pain. It's not fair to use another human being as a "test" for yourself- you'd expect better.
I am envious of true bisexuals. I think it increases the depth of knowledgde one could have about both genders. Love is immense, but platonic love that is combined with sexual love has got to be the strongest emotional experience a person could have. I am certainly no authority, but I am curious as to why some people have this ability while others don't. I think a mistake I have made in the past is thinking bisexuals needed both, at the same time, to feel fulfilled. My daughter says not so (at least for her). She can have fulfilling relationships with a person of either gender and feel satisfied with that one person. What's different for her is that if they break up, she could be looking for someone of either the same or opposite gender the next time. It's not necessarily about committing to a life of threesomes, swingers clubs, and orgies (although many people enjoy these things immensely), it's about being free to love and/or have sex with whomever you choose.
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Jana, I know the experts can't agree on anything. But you just hit the nail. No one has ever described my situation before, not even experts. I adore women. I even find women with gorgeous figures beautiful and absolutely adore them. I love my wife. I love giving flowers at Valentine's. etc. I live living in a straight world. It is all I know. But the truth is, it is guys that really turn me on. No one has described ths phonomen before that I have read about. So thanks for descriibng where some of us men are. But when I was in good health, I did enjoy sex with my wife and there were some adventures where I didn't fantasize about men.Originally posted by madame_zora@Mar 12 2005, 08:21 PM
Yikes! How will I ever show my face in front of Obi?Â
they aren't very aroused by women, but they like their company- THAT'S GAY!!!!!!!!! If you think women are awesome, they smell good, they make great friends, you relate to them more, you want to marry one and have kids because you just love women so much- BUT they don't really arouse you very much sexually, you're NOT, I repeat NOT NOT NOT bisexual!! If you have to fantasize about men to get off with a woman, that's not str8! or bi.
[post=290490]Quoted post[/post]
I agree with you that marriage for some men that me are disastrous and lives have been ruined. I don't agree that this is always the case.
My wife lost all interest in sex after the birth of our last child except on special occassions like in a motel room. She was the one who turned me down. She has no clue as to where my real sexual fantasies lie. She is perfectly happy with the marriage as it is.
So I do think it is possible and I think that there are a lot more in my situation then most people think. I also think that it is the cause of a lot of divources and even the other spouse has no clue as to the real problem.
But I haven't put 100 percent gay simply because I did enjoy sex without male fantasies some of the time. But I now exclusively think of men.
So does sexual orientation change over time. Was I once a 20 % or so straight and nwo 100 % gay?
Am I wrong to leave everything in the marriage as is. My wife has no sexual interest. She loves the romantic part of it all. And she loves to hug some. She is not an affectionate person who loves to hug. I am. Everyone is happy with the status quo. Would it not cause trouble to admit what has only happened in my mind? I have never had any sexual relationship with anyone since before we were engaged to be married.
Curious as to what you guys think about the situation I am in. i have no intention of acting on my fantasies. I don't want to leave the world I live in. I have three sons and all my friends are the same as my wife's. Even with the health problems I have, I still have feelings and fantasize about guys, but having gay sex with any man is not worth what I would lose. Too enter the gay world would be to start completely over with friendships and all. At age 53, it just doesn't seem to be worth it. I have never even had a conversation with a person who knew I was gay and they were gay and that was years ago.
I particularly want to hear the view of posters like Jana, DoubleMeatWhopper and others with whom I have gotten to know and would have a better knowledge of who I am. But of course everyone's opinion is welcomed. For those who don't know me, I would never ever hurt someone on purpose and have lived my live serving others.
Thanks for your input. LPSG is a marvelous forum. Unbelievable place.
I don't consider myself a "bisexual." I don't try to stick labels on myself and I get extremely pissed off when other people try to do it.
I don't consider gender to be a valid basis for selecting partners. I have no problem with the fact that I find both genders sexually attractive - sure I think some guys are hotter than some girls and vice versa, but that's simply personal preference.
I'm not capable of pigeonholing someone into a nice neat social category based on their gender or sexuality - I know it's a modern fetish and most people LOVE to do it, but real life ain't like that. if I'm into someone, I appreciate them for who AND what they are, not one thing or another. people are not assembled from a range of interchangeable components; we're all individuals. I feel no need to "identify" with anything except myself.
I don't consider gender to be a valid basis for selecting partners. I have no problem with the fact that I find both genders sexually attractive - sure I think some guys are hotter than some girls and vice versa, but that's simply personal preference.
I'm not capable of pigeonholing someone into a nice neat social category based on their gender or sexuality - I know it's a modern fetish and most people LOVE to do it, but real life ain't like that. if I'm into someone, I appreciate them for who AND what they are, not one thing or another. people are not assembled from a range of interchangeable components; we're all individuals. I feel no need to "identify" with anything except myself.
Freddie53's response shows the frustrations and limits of LABELS. Or even the per-cent thingy or Kinsey's ratings. Human being defie catagories even as we assign them.
But what are we going to do? We're stuck with them.
And Dr. Rock as usual has just said the same thing in a more elegant way.
But what are we going to do? We're stuck with them.
And Dr. Rock as usual has just said the same thing in a more elegant way.
madame_zora
Sexy Member
Freddie, I have come to truly love you as an lpsg friend! I think like many men in our generation, things were very different when you were courting your wife and becomming involved. As things are now, I wouldn't rock the boat. Having been married over 20 years and no longer sexually active, it seems like a moot point, but then again I don't know the exact nature of your illness or injury so I'm kinda in the dark. I know you love your wife and family, so you more than many would be well qualified to let our younger members know what your experiences have been like.
I do believe that a person's orientation can change over time, but I deeply believe that it is more the person's willingness to admit to themselves who they are that changes. It's just my opinion, but I stand firmly behind it. Loving the company of women is not the same as being str8. Period. Neither is "being able to perform" with a woman. As a young man, you dick will shoot nomatter where you put it! It's about lust, desire, what causes urges- these things determine SEXUAL orientation, and if you're not lusting over women, but you do feel lust over men, then that's gay, not bi. Now, if you feel lustful urges for both (and you're not lying to yourself to hold on to your str8 world foothold), then that's bi. Only you will know where your life fits in.
Also, nomatter what I say, or anyone else, only you can know how satisfied you feel in your life. If neither you or your wife is in a place that sex is an option, then I wouldn't upset her whole world over something that you aren't going to act out anyway. If you've spent your life together, raised you kids, had a fulfilling career, she is probably your best friend, albeit a platonic one. If this is agreeable to both of you, then far be it from me to suggest you do otherwise. Happiness in life is fleeting enough, I wouldn't lose what you have. I've never had what you have, because my own husband was not receptive to having sex with me, it was horrible from day one.
To all our younger members reading here, my plaintive cry is that you find out who you are before you offer yourself in a relationship to another person. The damage I incurred from such a union was substantial and I would not wish that on another person. Hear what Freddie has said, his attraction to his wife did not grow with time! Neither does anyone else's. I can love a woman too, but I don't want to have sex with her. If she's expecting sex from me, it would be cruel beyond belief to let her believe in me for that, don't you think? We are all sexual beings, and it's unfair to push the old "If you loved me enough you'd be happy with me as I am", because be honest- which of you as a newlywed would be satisfied in your marriage with a woman who made every excuse in the book not to have sex with you? If you think this would be okay, you're probably gay.
Freddie, we all grow in our own way in our own time. I can't possibly know what your life has been like, but I sure do value you here and now. Your willingness to share so openly about yourself has led to many good discussions here that I suspect will be very meaningful to many. I have made many decisions in my life that I would do differently now, if I knew then what I know now, but life doesn't work that way. When we are young, we make the decisions our young minds, using our youthful experience CAN make. We do our best. We try hard. I am sure you felt sure of yourself in your choices in that time. Good for you that you can explore yourself now and redefine who you are inside. Nothing is quite as beautiful a the growth of an individual person! Sharing yours here has meant a lot to me, as well as many of us, I'm sure.
I do believe that a person's orientation can change over time, but I deeply believe that it is more the person's willingness to admit to themselves who they are that changes. It's just my opinion, but I stand firmly behind it. Loving the company of women is not the same as being str8. Period. Neither is "being able to perform" with a woman. As a young man, you dick will shoot nomatter where you put it! It's about lust, desire, what causes urges- these things determine SEXUAL orientation, and if you're not lusting over women, but you do feel lust over men, then that's gay, not bi. Now, if you feel lustful urges for both (and you're not lying to yourself to hold on to your str8 world foothold), then that's bi. Only you will know where your life fits in.
Also, nomatter what I say, or anyone else, only you can know how satisfied you feel in your life. If neither you or your wife is in a place that sex is an option, then I wouldn't upset her whole world over something that you aren't going to act out anyway. If you've spent your life together, raised you kids, had a fulfilling career, she is probably your best friend, albeit a platonic one. If this is agreeable to both of you, then far be it from me to suggest you do otherwise. Happiness in life is fleeting enough, I wouldn't lose what you have. I've never had what you have, because my own husband was not receptive to having sex with me, it was horrible from day one.
To all our younger members reading here, my plaintive cry is that you find out who you are before you offer yourself in a relationship to another person. The damage I incurred from such a union was substantial and I would not wish that on another person. Hear what Freddie has said, his attraction to his wife did not grow with time! Neither does anyone else's. I can love a woman too, but I don't want to have sex with her. If she's expecting sex from me, it would be cruel beyond belief to let her believe in me for that, don't you think? We are all sexual beings, and it's unfair to push the old "If you loved me enough you'd be happy with me as I am", because be honest- which of you as a newlywed would be satisfied in your marriage with a woman who made every excuse in the book not to have sex with you? If you think this would be okay, you're probably gay.
Freddie, we all grow in our own way in our own time. I can't possibly know what your life has been like, but I sure do value you here and now. Your willingness to share so openly about yourself has led to many good discussions here that I suspect will be very meaningful to many. I have made many decisions in my life that I would do differently now, if I knew then what I know now, but life doesn't work that way. When we are young, we make the decisions our young minds, using our youthful experience CAN make. We do our best. We try hard. I am sure you felt sure of yourself in your choices in that time. Good for you that you can explore yourself now and redefine who you are inside. Nothing is quite as beautiful a the growth of an individual person! Sharing yours here has meant a lot to me, as well as many of us, I'm sure.
Madame Zora your insight and wisdom are amazing! And your ability to empathize and the regard you show for your fellow posters is very humbling to me.
Not only that but your writing has such clarity and vigor! You are Dr. Rock with an American accent. And breasts.
Highest regards and a tip of the hat.
Not only that but your writing has such clarity and vigor! You are Dr. Rock with an American accent. And breasts.
Highest regards and a tip of the hat.
- jonb,
Altairion -- Speaking of George, here's what Avery Ant had to say about him complaining about homos a little too much, tra la la:
http://www.averyant.com/rants.html
Jana -- A lot of people make that mistake, assuming that bisexuals require both. Personally, I'd say that fantasies provide a better "test". That way you can sample how you'd feel about both sexes without hurting anyone.
At the same time, I feel any guy who tries to get girls to do oral or anal should at least sleep with a man once, get an idea how sucking a dick or having one in your ass feels.
http://www.averyant.com/rants.html
Jana -- A lot of people make that mistake, assuming that bisexuals require both. Personally, I'd say that fantasies provide a better "test". That way you can sample how you'd feel about both sexes without hurting anyone.
At the same time, I feel any guy who tries to get girls to do oral or anal should at least sleep with a man once, get an idea how sucking a dick or having one in your ass feels.
