Dutch to ban wearing of Muslim burqa in public

[mattflanders]

I hope you all know that this isn't new. I spent the last school year on an AFS exchange in Turkey and it's even forbidden there to enter a (semi)public building with a normal veil (the ones covering only the back of the head even) let alone a burka! and this is a muslim country. And this law was passed in 1922! And wearing burkas is already outlawed in some towns in Belgium because us Belgians have to be able to identify at all times. So I'm for this law, no religious anything in public buildings. In the street, if it makes you feel better to identify with your religion then I don't care, but it can't be in the way of your integration in the society one emigrated to.

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

I'd take the Muslim argument seriously if Jews start wearing stars of David on their breast. Hmmmmmm?

Some religous sybolism is not cool.

 

[titan1968]

It's not that simple. In the 1990s, a there was an RCMP (a Mountie), a Canadian Sikh, who wanted to wear his 'turban' on the force. His superiors said no to his request because of the dress code. He went to court and won. The RCMP-- an Institution of the Crown-- was forced to change their policies for one lonely Sikh. If I were a Mountie and if I were to challenge the dress code of the 'Royal Canadian Mounted Police' force, I would have been kicked off the force. Isn't that discrimination?

Here's another example. Last year or the year before, a young Sikh boy from Montreal was told that he couldn't go to school with his 'ceremonial' dagger. With the help of the local Sikh community, his parents challenged the ruling in court and won. Another precedent. If a white or black child went to school with a pocket knife, the response would be swift: the 'weapon' would be confiscated. Again, isn't that discrimination? Whatever happened to equality?

I support the Dutch whole-heartedly in their attempts to ban the 'burga' in public. In my opinion, the burga is used to divide the sexes and to create two classes of people. It should be banned altogether, and not only in the Netherlands.

We are fortunate to live in the 'free' West. Christians living in Iraq, Iran, Egypt (Copts), Indonesia and the Middle East aren't so lucky: they have to fight to stay alive, and live in fear of being killed because their respective governments have a different interpretation of the concept of religious freedoms.

[/quote]
If a teller at a bank is wearing a niqab, can you not wait in line for a different teller? Of course, in a professional setting a PRIVATE institution (such as a bank) can set a dress code. Since employment in most countries is voluntary, businesses may set dress codes that do not comply with the religious sensibilites of all people. If you don't agree with the dress code of your employer you may seek employment elswhere. This is different, as it is a country-wide policy.

[/quote]

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

Sadly, the Dutch ruling will be seen as Islamophobia rather than a corrective of fundamentalism, however. One could also imagine fundamentalist husbands (or indeed many who have internalized the use of the niqab as a norm without exploring the recent nature of its imposition) restricting the mobility of Muslim women in the Netherlands beyond the confines of their own homes.

I can't add anything Alex didn't already say about the issue specifically.

I would like to add that, personally, I loved visiting The Netherlands specifically because they are so open, laid back, tolerant and free-thinking. My initial reaction to reading this thread's headline was actually as Alex decribed. My kneejerk reaction was to think to blame Islamophobia. Before even reading his post, though, it occurred to me that this didn't make sense happening in the most liberal and tolerant country in Europe if that really was the motivation behind it. Further, though Muslims often speak fondly of their culture's values protecting women and placing high value on them... is that really such a good thing? To be highly valued? Isn't this just another way of saying that women are property or a commodity? Living in a diverse area like Northern Virginia, I know many Muslim women who feel this way, it is not just my warped Western values being imposed on a foreign culture. These women do not agree with the overt sexist attitudes of many Islamic countries/governments, and many of them have had to live like this whether they wanted to or not. It seems to me like this is as much a victory for women's rights as it may be a defeat for religious/cultural tolerance. Though the stipulation that the decision was based solely on security issues is, if somewhat unlikely, at least plausible.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

This is just too funny. Here in the United States of Sexual Repression, you get arrested for wearing too little clothing. Now the Dutch want to arrest women for wearing too much clothing.

Instead of making it a religious issue, the Dutch government should just simply draft an elementary-school-style dress code. Anyone deviating from the dress code, in public, could be fined or arrested. Hell, just make it a private-prep-school-type dress code, and have uniforms. Wouldn't it be cute if all the Dutch women wore v-neck sweaters, plaid skirts, knee socks, and saddle oxford shoes, and all the men wore a white shirt, red tie, navy blue blazer with a crest on the pocket, and navy blue pants and shiny black shoes?

If they're going to adopt a national dress code it should be a unisex one-piece jumpsuit like they often wear in bad sci-fi movies.

 

[DC_DEEP]

If they're going to adopt a national dress code it should be a unisex one-piece jumpsuit like they often wear in bad sci-fi movies.

Oh, well, gee, thanks buddy. There goes the "naughty school girl" fantasy I was hoping to conjure.

Back on the islam topic, I always found it amusing and astounding what a complete moron one would have to be, to accept the only explanation I've ever heard for the customary covering of women. If a man sees a woman's "beauty", he will be overcome with lust, unable to control himself, and he will rape her, and then stick his cock into any orfice within a half-mile radius. Gee, doesn't say much for a man's strength or self-control, does it? By the way, is it possible that "a woman should keep her beauty covered" could possibly have euphemistically referred to her pubics, back when the qu'ran was first written?

 

[dong20]

Back on the islam topic, I always found it amusing and astounding what a complete moron one would have to be, to accept the only explanation I've ever heard for the customary covering of women. If a man sees a woman's "beauty", he will be overcome with lust, unable to control himself, and he will rape her, and then stick his cock into any orfice within a half-mile radius. Gee, doesn't say much for a man's strength or self-control, does it? By the way, is it possible that "a woman should keep her beauty covered" could possibly have euphemistically referred to her pubics, back when the qu'ran was first written?

Perhaps, like the same puritanical extremes of the Victorian era it won't last.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Perhaps, like the same puritanical extremes of the Victorian era it won't last.

Well, that may be true, but still not even near the point I was making. Even the puritanical western types claim it is an offense to god, for either gender to show too much. But these guys who claim to be so strong in their faith, so strong in general, but acknowledge that they would be completely unable to keep from raping any woman who accidentally shows a lock of hair... really absurd.

 

[bluice94]

I think it's a matter of respecting each other's national traditions. As a matter a fact: don't try to walk in shorts of short skirts on their streets. Let alone to enter a mosque in those clothing. They won't accept it. OK, that's their belief and their values so we have to respect it. So why on earth is it so hard to respect our Dutch values?

Over here it is not common/traditional to wear niqabs etc like some of the muslim women need to do. In that case it's a matter of getting adapted: no niqabs. If we can adapt, then so should they be able to. It's not a matter of islamophobia; it's a matter of (local) respect for the country you stay in.

 

[Heather LouAnna]

Different regions have different opinions the world over. Is anyone here Dutch?


no...?

Then shut up.

 

[B_big dirigible]

I spent the last school year on an AFS exchange in Turkey and it's even forbidden there to enter a (semi)public building with a normal veil (the ones covering only the back of the head even) let alone a burka! and this is a muslim country. And this law was passed in 1922!

Well, 1922 was a big year in Turkey. That was when Mustapha Kemal effectively broke the power of the Caliphate (which had passed from Arab to Ottoman hands four centuries previously), although he didn't actually manage to destroy it completely and send the remnants of the Ottoman house into exile until two years later.

Judging by this thread, some of us could learn a thing or two from Mustapha - and the sooner, the better.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

Different regions have different opinions the world over. Is anyone here Dutch?


no...?

Then shut up.

The person who just commented above you was.




and on that subject... genocide continues in Darfur. Is anyone here African? No? Then shut the fuck up...

 

[Chaz]

I live in a very central London location where there are many very wealthy arabs driving around in their £150,000+ cars with their blacked out windows and some women with veils. I don't like this as its a form of consealment and secrecy. The only other people in London who drive in cars with blacked out windows and hiding their faces are rough as hell criminals.

I don't believe the veil is of such religious importance but its more tradition. More women in London wear the veil than ever, which implies that many women only wear it as a reactionary statement. I have two female friends in London whose grandparents settled in London, being second generation immigrants they find the whole veil idea very alien.

When i have been to Arabic countries foreign women are expected to dress in an 'appropriate manner'! Infact being a non-muslim your not allowed to travel to certain parts of certain arab nations. SOOO, my point is that u need to respect your host nations ways; 'When in Rome do what the Romans do'. So While i don't expect all Muslim women to walk around in Jeans and a T shirt etc... i think the removal of the full head veil would be appreciated. This has been my view, WELL before all this 9/11 .. Iraq war, bombings in London etc... Just my view

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

The only other people in London who drive in cars with blacked out windows and hiding their faces are rough as hell criminals.

In America we see this a lot... usually by kids who like to pretend that they are rough as hell criminals.

 

[scanjock8]

Yes. Welcome back Alex8.:hug:




It is an example of a woman's subjection by males and not a religious expression. As explained by Alex8 and this Italian MP:

Italian MP speaks out on veils despite imam's 'death threat' | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

In Islam a death sentence for those who convert to another religion or leave the faith, the killing of homosexuals , polygamy and wife beating are all advocated.

Expatica - Living in, moving to, or working in Netherlands, plus News in English

Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh gets police protection after he makes film about wife beating in Islam - Militant Islam Monitor - Militant Islam Monitor

For throwing the spotlight on some of these contentious issues in Islam's faith, in the film Submissions Part 1, the filmaker Theo Van Gogh was killed in Nov. 2004 by a radical Muslim.

I'm not disputing the repressive nature of said traditions, but what do they have to do with restricting the attire a person choose's to wear? If Islamic practices were considered kinder and gentler would the burqa then be OK? They seem unrelated.

 

[Heather LouAnna]

The person who just commented above you was.

If you roll your eyes enough, they may get stuck that way.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

If you roll your eyes enough, they may get stuck that way.

That's the point. I'm trying to see my brain.

 

[B_dxjnorto]

To me the niqab's relation to religious expression is about the same as stashing weapons in places of sanctuary. It's a contrivance.

 

[titan1968]

Bluice94, you're spot on-- when in Rome....

It's a matter of adapting or integrating to your new milieu. If those people feel that they're unable to adapt to their new realities and contribute to Dutch society, then they should pack up and leave.

And Heather LouAnna, you don't need to be Dutch to have an opinion on this subject. We're having a dialogue, in true Platonic fashion, with questions and answers.

Alex, it's good to have you back.

I think it's a matter of respecting each other's national traditions. As a matter a fact: don't try to walk in shorts of short skirts on their streets. Let alone to enter a mosque in those clothing. They won't accept it. OK, that's their belief and their values so we have to respect it. So why on earth is it so hard to respect our Dutch values?

Over here it is not common/traditional to wear niqabs etc like some of the muslim women need to do. In that case it's a matter of getting adapted: no niqabs. If we can adapt, then so should they be able to. It's not a matter of islamophobia; it's a matter of (local) respect for the country you stay in.

 

[DC_DEEP]

The person who just commented above you was.

Silly boy, that poster is in The Netherlands, not Dutchland. Get an atlas.

and on that subject... genocide continues in Darfur. Is anyone here African? No? Then shut the fuck up...

Oh, and now you're going to try to throw logic into the mix. Shut the fuck up.

(Don't mess with me, dude, or I will send the cunt-breathing dragon to take care of you.)