Genealogy

[ManiacalMadMan]

Stronzo -- this was a really nice thread and I (and others) appreciate your starting it.

Lipstick is smeared again honey.

ManiacalMadMan -- one of the great things here is that even people who fight can come together as well from time to time. I wish you would not pick a needless fight here based on personal issues. If you have a legitimate gripe with genealogy, then let's hear it.

I have already indicated my gripe old man. It is about where the genealogy situation leads It leads to an arrogant portrayal of one group being in some way shape or form better than the others.

 

[Gisella]

^ Wentworth Miller too. He was in Mariah's "We Belong Together" video also. Hmmm....


Right, Gisella. And yes, I am a U.S. citizen now, but I wasn't always. I guess I'll chalk it up as a chapter in my life. This is what I'm talking about, though:

"Differently from the United States, racial classification in Brazil is not necessarily related to ancestry or origin but, more commonly, to appearance or phenotype. Skin color and other characteristics such as hair texture, nose and lip width are usually taken into account when individuals classify themselves into different race/color categories. In addition to physical attributes, socioeconomic factors such as education, income, and exterior signs of wealth also play a role in how individuals racially perceive themselves and the others."

http://www.abep.nepo.unicamp.br/site_eventos_abep/PDF/ABEP2004_624.pdf

I see..Dr. Dilznick.

Well, I can pass by diferent nationalities depends who are looking at me..and finding me familiar and come to talk with me or try, in their idioms..Nice!

In Brasil I'm 'typical , morena clara' brasilian.

In England I was to some: Iranian, West Indi, Spanish, Italian, Arabic, Mediterranean..

In the US: Iam not white

Boston: Italian, black (like Maria...:biggrin1; Greek, Jewish, Arab...

South of US: 'Mexican'= Spanish=Latina, Native American (if i dont open my mouth..) Porto Rican, black as Maria again, Italian.

At Airports: mostly Italian...

My conclusion is that I belong to Brown group of many peoples group.

And thanks for understanding my emotional outburst...:smile:

 

[ManiacalMadMan]

People with the name Maniacal in their username are sociopathic before they even open their mouths.

Thank you never so much for the mention darling. I am not sociopathic but if it makes you feel better to so define me then by all means go for it.

 

[tripod]

Yeah, I should have said, "seem sociopathic" before they open their mouths, sorry.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Sadly you are unable to offer such open mindedness although it seems to be one of your biggest beefs is about others not being open minded

Again. I have no 'beef' with you or anyone else. I'm just curious as to why you'd continue to write in a thread about a topic in which you say you have no interest. Your 'beef' appears to be with anyone who'd ask you to remain topical.

For something which you say has no interest to you it appears it brings out a histronic side to you that may easily suggest ancestors who were in the theater. Perhaps you're related to Clara Kimball Young. It would be a place to start perhaps?

Back to genealogy...

 

[ManiacalMadMan]

.

For something which you say has no interest to you it appears it brings out a histronic side to you that may easily suggest ancestors who were in the theater. ?

Now this is positively downright frightening! How on earth did you know that I was born in a movie theater? Loews Sheridan in New York (closed several years back)

(well to be precise that's where my brother and I were left and that to me is where life began)

 

[B_Stronzo]

that's the spirit....

 

[Lex]

Put him on ignore, Stronzo. Dr. Rock told us to do that a LONG time ago.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Put him on ignore, Stronzo. Dr. Rock told us to do that a LONG time ago.

DONE.

Grazie mille.

 

[DaveyR]

MMM :rocketwhore: basically you are just being a troll in this thread. Stronzo - don't waste your time doing this :banghead2: .


This is a shame because so many have found this thread interesting so it would be nice to stay on topic.

As I said my own tree is so unbelievably unremarkable so I am enjoying reading others' experiences and discoveries through Genealogy.

 

[B_Stronzo]

As I said my own tree is so unbelievably unremarkable so I am enjoying reading others' experiences and discoveries through Genealogy.

Dave?

Don't you think all our trees are 'remarkable' to us at least to one degree or another? I don't mean in an historical sense necessarily.

Lordpendragon knows of one my lines which my family's always considered a bit "pas comme il faut" from a social standpoint but I find them the most fascinating since in that line there exists the foibles which afflict present society; abandonment, divorce, bigamy, etc.

I find the detail in the research easily more gratifying than those lines which some may possibly find more historically significant.

Indeed in my own case when it became known on my maternal side that I was gay my mum said "well so was your granduncle and great granduncle and it, no doubt, goes back further than that. Darling, there's nothing new under the sun".

God how I loved her willingness to nearly say "yeah so?"

For me it gives me a sense of proportion not simply statistics and names.

 

[DaveyR]

Well Richard

I suppose my tree is remarkable to me but in the sense MMM was referring to it is definitely unremarkable.

One aspect of it that does give me a little concern is the uncertainty of it all. I have several family lines from the Armstrongs of South West Scotland that could be construed as dubious. I have come across more than one household in my lines where the youngest of the children on the census records are probably Grandchildren of the Householders being passed off as their own children. This was quite common in the past as a way of saving face for unmarried daughters. Of course they could be perfectly accurate records as menopause pregnancies were common too. There is no earthly way of knowing the truth.

My nature is such that I don't like dealing with uncertainty and knowing that I may have some of the lines wrong in my tree through these possible inaccuracies bugs me.

Has anyone else come across similar in their searches and how did you draw conclusions from what you found?

 

[BuddyBoy]

That paternal DNA test that Lex speaks about is pretty expensive, it is of no help to caucasions though. DNA tests just reveal your European, African, or Asian ancestry (native american is hard to tell apart from Asian DNA). Does anyone know why the maternal DNA cannot be traced like the paternal can? That is something I have been wanting to know since I watched the show like three times several months back.

It's actually not too expensive - it depend on how detailed you want the Y-DNA test. A basic 12 marker test runs about $99. The cost adds up when you start hitting 25 and 37 markers and now they have one in the 60s I think.

I had the 37 marker test done, and have never matched anyone else yet beyond the 25 marker point, but have run into some interesting distant relations nonetheless. One man whose grandfather was a foundling, but whose DNA was a close enough match that he might have been one of my great-gradfather's unacknowedged children. That and his two brothers' first names happened to be my great-grandfather's first and middle name. :biggrin1:

On the female side, you can get low and high resolution mitochondrial DNA tests, which is also the only ancestral DNA test a woman can have since they lack the Y chromosone. Low resolution costs about $99 and high is about $250.

The National Georgraphic is currently running the Genographic project. You can have your mtDNA or YDNA done for $99 and they'll tell you where your ancestors came from and what migration patterns they've followed. You can even add-on higher resolution testing after the fact from your initial dna sample - that's what I did. My sister and I each did a kit - mine YDNA, hers mtDNA - and then I added on 37 Y markers and the high resolution mtDNA.

At least the good news came back that we are brother and sister.:tongue:

 

[B_Stronzo]

Well Richard

I suppose my tree is remarkable to me but in the sense MMM was referring to it is definitely unremarkable.

One aspect of it that does give me a little concern is the uncertainty of it all. I have several family lines from the Armstrongs of South West Scotland that could be construed as dubious. I have come across more than one household in my lines where the youngest of the children on the census records are probably Grandchildren of the Householders being passed off as their own children. This was quite common in the past as a way of saving face for unmarried daughters. Of course they could be perfectly accurate records as menopause pregnancies were common too. There is no earthly way of knowing the truth.

My nature is such that I don't like dealing with uncertainty and knowing that I may have some of the lines wrong in my tree through these possible inaccuracies bugs me.

Has anyone else come across similar in their searches and how did you draw conclusions from what you found?

Yes I see it in that sense now that you say so.

I have Armstrongs by the way several generations back. Is it invariably Scottish as I've always heard? I also have one Robert Murdo or Murdock (it's spelled both ways) who was living near Melrose Abbey in the late 17th century and was a stone mason prior to his removal to this side of the Atlantic.

With respect to the unkowns in the census I will tell you that one line of my father's family was nearly never spoken about. I inquired for years until finally one day a cousin whispered (now remember we're talking about the late 19th century here) "there was a divorce there". That was it.

I knew the surname and I went to the Massachusetts State Archives since it was a Mayflower surname and I was anxious to connect it to the obvious ancestor. I figured out roughly the time frame when this "unsavory" divorce would have taken place and after a ten minute wait the clerk emerged from a vault with the divorce papers from 1874. In it were the names of both parties and the "correspondent". Since I knew not what had become of this ancestral x-amount of great grandfather since he deserted his wife and three children, I was pleased to find his mistress named on the paperwork.

Immediately I imagined their life together. It was really surreal since I own a carte de visite photo of the fellow in his Civil War uniform.

I scanned the 1880 Massachusetts State census and found him listed as living in Boston with said mistress and "son William aged 3". He was listed as divorced and she "unmarried".

Years later my dad's second cousin confided that her mother had been approached at church service one Sunday by an ancient man who had asked if she'd "vouch for him" since he had no birth certificate and was trying to collect his pension. Only years later did she find out that it was the long lost "son William" whose birth was never recorded.

Point is, I keep filling in more and more detailed information.

I only put it officially in place when it can be substantiated. But for me nine tenths of the fun is the new lead... it appeals to the investigative piece in me.

 

[B_Stronzo]

The National Georgraphic is currently running the Genographic project. You can have your mtDNA or YDNA done for $99 and they'll tell you where your ancestors came from and what migration patterns they've followed. You can even add-on higher resolution testing after the fact from your initial dna sample - that's what I did. My sister and I each did a kit - mine YDNA, hers mtDNA - and then I added on 37 Y markers and the high resolution mtDNA.

This migration pattern stuff and the Genographic project are unknown to me BuddyBoy. Thanks. I'm curious to learn more.

 

[Ethyl]

I'm interested to read what you write since my "significant other" has had distinct trouble proving a widely-held contention among his father's people. He'd always heard from his dad "oh we're American Indian through my grandmother Stanton". It's so difficult to prove we found out.

Well, it's nice to know we're not alone in our seemingly futile search. That is the problem with a tribe or race with a largely oral tradition-details are lost, forgotten, changed, or misinterpreted over the years with each generation.

His strong Dutch line is well-documented like yours since they followed the predictable route up the Hudson from New Amsterdam.

My sister was pleased as punch to discover we were descended from Dutch nobility. Looking at old photos of my maternal ancestors one can see the fair-skin, light eyes, blond and red hair -- physical characteristics I share with them. And they're quite tall. I wasn't surprised to read the recent article about the Dutch being hailed as the tallest people in the world although at 5'8" i'm short in stature by comparison. :tongue:

Again- he and I have perused census after census and have not found substantiation for the oral history from his father's people about his Indian ancestry. However I suspect it would not have been widely documented since we're talking about the late 18th century here if it exists.

My sister said that the reservations often only have records dating from the turn of the century. Those early documents are the result of the few caucasians who took an interest in their culture since most couldn't read english or write. Many are tall tales written for a caucasian audience, too.

His most recently immigrated European line is through his great grandmother whose people came from the lowlands of Scotland to Canada first then migrated into the Finger Lakes region where his grandfather was born to a Scottish mother and "Yankee" father. It was a slip of paper in a family Bible which said his great grandmother was "born in __________ , Scotland and her uncle was the Laird of Drumwhirn". Had that paper not been preserved we'd never have actually visited his ancestral churchyard and two family houses where cousins reside to this day.

How fortunate for him. I love to hear stories like this.

One a side note I'll tell you that I had an extremely rocky time early-on with his mother. I'd made him gay you see. :tongue:

Oops.

Only when I began to inquire about her historical past did she begin to ease up on me as her son's partner. Subsequent to that the three of us made yearly treks to New York State to visit his Dutch great grandmother who lived to be well into her nineties. Not only did he discover his historical past but he connected with his great grandmother and extended family in a way that would never have been possible were genealogy not the initial catalyst.

How fascinating. Clearly you have a knack for this type of research. And it opened a door for you and your relationship with his mother, that's wonderful. Once upon a time I was content knowing I was an American mutt until my sister began her research and now i've hounded her for details so often she updates me every time she finds something new.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Careful MB!!

the genealogy bug, once caught, has no known cure....:tongue:

 

[Ethyl]

Careful MB!!

the genealogy bug, once caught, has no known cure....:tongue:

No worries. This particularly virulent strain is more than welcome. :tongue:

 

[BuddyBoy]

This migration pattern stuff and the Genographic project are unknown to me BuddyBoy. Thanks. I'm curious to learn more.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/

It's a facinating project, and in addition to paid public participation, they've also been funded to travel throughout the world gathering DNA from aboriginal peoples, including North Americans. A friend of mine is part Metis from the North West Territories, and wants to get her family involved.

One eye opening thing about the project, in a true after-school special style awakening, is that you realize we all came from one valley in Africa. The only difference is where we wandered and loitered between then and now. Yeah, yeah, sappy, but true.

 

[Lordpendragon]

This is a fun source of information that I don't think is very often used. Well I say fun if you don't mind finding out what some of your ancestors were tried and convicted for.

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/

Their records are searchable.