Is war inevitable between Iran and Israel?

[faceking]

I am largely a pacifist, but I don't think it is inferior. If a pacifist goes against a warmonger in a war, of course the warmonger is going to win my maiming or killing the pacifist. However, even though the pacifist is hurt or killed, did they not maintain their beliefs during the battle?

Sorry kiddo, it's not about beliefs.... said "belief trait" will die out... if it is inherent. Thusly my point.

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

I was a bouncer for several years at a busy sports bar who had live bands every weekend. It wasn't a rough place, but it also had a reputation for bartenders who would overserve and would attract the area's hardest drinkers. We also drew quite a lot of gambling business and coke and Molly (MDMA) sales. It was a crazy place at times with me having to stand on the counters 'cause the place was so packed that if something happened, I would never see it.

Now, I am a short guy at 5 foot 7... I am not intimidating until you start and size me up... I make up for my height with strength.

I handled so many fights that I couldn't even begin to remember all of them.

I handled most of them through diplomacy, through using my mind and my mouth... I disarmed almost any person that I wanted to. Everyone is by and large the same and they all respond to fair and honest treatment positively.

I did have to kick some ass, but those moments were few and far between. I was the most fair bouncer around and I made a lot of friends in Charlotte when I lived and worked there. I was able to be diplomatic because I have a high degree of emotional intelligence and can read people well.

Most of you on the right are not very diplomatic and it's no wonder that you can't wrap your mind around the art of diplomacy... it just doesn't add up in your head and seems like a big load of bullshit.

It just makes sense that a lot of you that are against diplomacy because you aren't very diplomatic in your own lives.

As a side note... the absolute biggest asshole that I ever came across was this dude named Mustafa that clearly was an Arab and was a TOTAL prick... he was like the devil. He threatened to pick up a table and crush one of our cocktail waitresses with it!!!!! He was there with a shitload of friends so we couldn't really do shit to him but get him out of there.

I can't help but think that a Jewish person would most likely have NEVER threatened to crush a waitress with a table... I don't honestly know what to do with Islamic fundamentalism, it is fucking scary. I just know that in my heart, it isn't a situation that we should be aggressive and offensive in. We should be in the business of turning the next generation of Islamic Fundamentalists into good and honest Muslims. I am not sure how to do it, but I am POSITIVE that it doesn't require military bases, air strikes and helicopters to accomplish that task.

I don't understand how people can make blanket statements like that about entire groups of people. I really don't. I'm so dumbfounded by it I can't even respond.

 

[B_RedDude]

Going to be great if/when Israel gets a no-nonsense non-libtard in office and says "fuck you, a threat is equal to an attack". Buh-bye. That is one country you DON'T want to fuck with.

And within this kind of thinking lies the entire problem.

In the Western moral tradition (which is Christian), preemptive attacks are not allowed (like Iraq for example--so much for George Bush claiming to be an observant Christian).

 

[tripod]

No offense.. but long winded blather to try and equate negotiatin' with a bunch of drunk mullet-headed necks with born/inbred Middle Eastern lunacy... yeah... I can see the connection.

Problem is.. when they wake up tomorrow... they are still just as pissed at Western culture as they were today.

No offense? You call my well written post blather? You come bustin' in here with your lame ass responses to intellectual content... No offense but, HOW THE HECK DO YOU KNOW WHAT MUSLIMS ARE LIKE? HAVE YOU BEEN TO A MUSLIM COUNTRY? ARE YOU A MUSLIM? I don't think that you are the least bit interested in Islam and have no curiosity on the matter, so why would you even know anything about the subject? As far as you know, they are all terrorists and you wouldn't be bothered to learn anything about Islam.

There's not too much difference in the Quran and the Old Testament and most of the Muslims that you think are born or inbred lunatics are normal everyday folk with the same hopes and aspirations as you or I.

You should befriend a Muslim, it would be an eye opening experience for ya.

I don't understand how people can make blanket statements like that about entire groups of people. I really don't. I'm so dumbfounded by it I can't even respond.

Every Jewish person that I ever met was a rational non violent individual. I am sure that there are some irrational and violent Jews out there, but I haven't met any, have you?

 

[Elmer Gantry]

Oh, yeah. We used to have this muppet who drank at my local pub. He excelled in creeping out any female who came in the bar and picking fights with anyone who didn't look white enough. Actually put a Lebanese mate of ours into hospital after he attacked him out in the car park while the guy was leaving. Two of the others were with him but this idiot just got him right under the chin with a lump of wood and then ran like a sissy. Classy.

Then one night he picked on a Maori.

We never saw him around much after that.............................

 

[Elmer Gantry]

I think i forgot to mention he was Jewish and obnoxiously proud of it.

 

[D_Chocho_Lippz]

lol...i think the 'fittest' are the ones who stay alive....i am a pacifist but that is an outward view, if someone is trying to attack me then that is an aggressive inward view and so i think therefore its o.k. to kick seven shades of sh** out of your enemy! (if you can of course, sometimes easier just to leg it!) :biggrin1:

Staying alive is not my point, especially since I directly pointed that out. And what the hell do you mean that you are an outward pacifist? You just do it because it makes you look cool? Let me guess, you call yourself a vegetarian so you can make friends and then go home and eat a steak? You really need to clarify this inward and outward pacifism you have going on because it sounds like it could be detrimental to your health.

Sorry kiddo, it's not about beliefs.... said "belief trait" will die out... if it is inherent. Thusly my point.

"Kiddo" yourself ya old fart.

If you want to go through life and say that you believe one thing, and then when the tough times roll, you abandon them for the sake of your safety, you are nothing more than a pansy and a hypocrite. Being true to myself was what my post was about, not survival-of-the-fittest.

I happen to believe that you live life the way you say you do - put your money where your mouth is...

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

Every Jewish person that I ever met was a rational non violent individual. I am sure that there are some irrational and violent Jews out there, but I haven't met any, have you?

I was actually referring to the "most people on the right don't get diplomacy" thing.

How much blood shed did we suffer ending the cold war?

The only possible thing that could make this remotely close to accurate is that a majority of people in the military lean right. But that still doesn't mean anything.

There was only one person I can remember from either side saying no going to war right after 9/11 and that was Richard Gere at the concert at madison square garden. And all the FDNY and NYPD of New York booed him off the stage.

What polls have you taken or studied that tells you these things? Or are you making assumptions based on what you hear on the news and the "people you know"? And pointing out some people in office does not make up "most" of one side of a politcal party.

Talk about diplomacy and it's need to be the first option and it should be exhausted before acting in other ways. People will agree with you more often than not. But making broad generalizations like that makes it difficult to have a normal conversation.

I've worked a few doors in my life too and you see people right away you know you're going to have to punch in the face.

 

[mitchymo]

Staying alive is not my point, especially since I directly pointed that out. And what the hell do you mean that you are an outward pacifist? You just do it because it makes you look cool? Let me guess, you call yourself a vegetarian so you can make friends and then go home and eat a steak? You really need to clarify this inward and outward pacifism you have going on because it sounds like it could be detrimental to your health.


MY point is that your point does not make sense! you mention survival of the fittest while conceding that you would happily die for your beliefs (sounds familiar) which does nothing except give in to bullies.
And i am definately not a vegetarian nor would ever claim to be something which i am not. By 'outwardly pacifist' i mean i am not quite a 'true' pacifist in so much as i support the need when necessary to take action for such purposes of self-defence with means which if i were to simply call myself a 'pacifist' would make me a hypocrite. Respect me and i'll respect you back but treat me badly and i will not forgive is the typical view of an 'outward' pacifist, whereas a 'true' pacifist like yourself may indeed roll over and get squashed by those who are not pacifists at all.

 

[mitchymo]

I am largely a pacifist, but I don't think it is inferior. If a pacifist goes against a warmonger in a war, of course the warmonger is going to win my maiming or killing the pacifist. However, even though the pacifist is hurt or killed, did they not maintain their beliefs during the battle?

In my own personal opinion, I think that maintaining your moral standards regardless of the situation is paramount and if you stick to them, then you are a winner. Sure, I know, it sounds like banter... how can you be a winner when you are dead? But that is a different story - survival of the fittest.

apologies for having mis-understood this message, you indeed were not making the whole survival of the fittest p.o.v but do you not think that moral standards have a significant part to play in that point of view.
Your particular moral standard if i'm right in thinking that violence is unacceptable regardless of the situation conflicts with nature, daft as it may sound but we use violence for the same primary reason that most creatures do - for defense and for hunting (the latter obviously more redundant in this day and age). I feel that your view is the 'other' side of the coin and respectfully the sensible way to live is to promote peace whilst being ready when necessary to protect yourself/family/way of life etc etc

 

[tripod]

I've worked a few doors in my life too and you see people right away you know you're going to have to punch in the face.

That's why I wrote the post. I would see someone who was troubled and on a bender that would most likely need a talkin' to at the end of the night.

The only dude that I ever actually punched in the face repeatedly was a guy who slapped a woman. When I went to get him out of the bar... he started windmilling me and as soon as he wore himself out, I actually tried to kill him! lol!!! I ended up kneeling on his chest choking the life out of him.

I saw that guy a few years later (he entered the bar earlier in the day and drank until I got there, the earlier fight was so brutal and rapid that one of the bartenders didn't get a good look at him and they had no idea he was the guy who tried to take my head off) and I dealt with him diplomatically and made sure that he got home in a cab. He later remarked to me that, "I was a good man."

You proved my point Wartrac. lol!!!! But you actually have more diplomatic ability than you probably think that you do, I have seen it on this site and you have been nice to debate with, there are many other right wingers with much less diplomatic ability than you. If every right winger was like you, then this country wouldn't be in this mess it is right now.

 

[Flashy]

So how can you argue that a religion (Judaism) has a right to its own state (Israel)? Judaism is a religion; nothing more.

the difference, moron, is Judaism is not the foundation for the political system or the laws. People are free to practice other religions without repression. People live under a democratic and non-religious political and legal system, and their lives are not governed by a theocracy.

Sharia Law, i.e. is the basis for law and government in Iran.

Judaimsm, is the identity of ISrael...not its laws.

you can leave this thread now...that was perhaps the dumbest thing I have ever heard, and all your other opinions and their ignorance now make total sense.

If you cannot figure out the difference between Sharia Law, and democratic law, you should try living in Iran or Saudi Arabia, and committing a minor crime.

For example...take your mom and wife and daughter for a walk in Haifa. It is a beautiful Day...the sun is shining, you walk along the promenade and gaze out over the beach and ocean...you are in shorts and t-shirt and the women of your family, are dressed casually, for a wonderful day...something like this

http://www.surfdiva.com/uploads/crtucan.jpg

You have a wonderful day with your lovely family.


then, visit Iran...have your lovely women dress the exact same way...Better yet, cover them almost all the way up, so they look like this

iran1.jpg (image)

iran4.jpg (image)

iran3.jpg (image)

iran2.jpg (image)


then see what happens...as in the case of the first 4 days of the new Islamic dress code for women in Iran...


Some 150,000 women have been detained in Iran for violating strict new Islamic dress code rules, the country's top police officer has announced. "During the first four days [since the code came into effect] we have picked up 150,000 women who were not properly veiled, but many of them were released after they signed an admission of guilt and a formal apology," General Ismail Ahmadi Moghaddam told journalists. An unspecified number of the women taken into custody were also forced to undergo psychological counseling, Moghaddam said.

“Only 13 of these women are still being held and they will have to stand trial," he explained.


---------


Sunday, April 22, 2007

Despite Protests Iran Begins Massive Crackdown On Women


On Friday 700 Iranian women protested at Tehran Polytechnic University against new regulations enabling police as of 21 April to arrest women who do not abide by the Islamic dress code. The women organized a rally on campus and signed a letter to the dean calling the new rules "an offence to the dignity of women" and accusing him of "wanting to extend to academia the sexual apartheid imposed by the government on Iranian society."

-----------



Then, god forbid...someone rapes your daughter or wife or mother...In Israel, the legal system will hear her case as any modern western society would, the rapist will be brought to justice, and will be put on trial...all witness, scientific evidence etc. will be presented, to get justice for your injured family members...


try getting the same treatment in Iran

this is what happens when a woman is raped in Iran...

http://chromatism.net/current/images/stoning.jpg

they are buried up to their breasts and stoned to death in many places. (men are only buried up to their waist, since if you manage to get away from the stoning, you are "free"...but this way, men have an easier time getting away...doesn't really matter, since the women who "free" themselves, are brought back anyway and stoned to death.)

see if you have the guts to watch two women being stoned to death in Iran

http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/stoning-t1.rm


That said, even if they are not stoned to death, try getting justice for a woman who has been raped in IRan...maybe you should do a bit of research on a couple of stories...like these

Death of a teenager | Media | MediaGuardian



--------------------

Care to know where Khatami, the so called former "reformist" stood on this issue?

[SIZE=+3]Stoning to Death in Iran:[/SIZE] [SIZE=+2]A Crime Against Humanity [/SIZE] [SIZE=+2]Carried Out By the Mullahs' Regime[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Where does Mohammad Khatami (the so called "moderate president") and his "Cabinet" stand on stoning?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]E[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]ver since May 1997, when Mohammad Khatami took office, he has been telling the world that he is going to make sure that law and order prevail in Iran.... He has certainly done that on the issue of stoning people to death:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]On October 26, 1997, Associated Press, reported:[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=+1]"Iran Stones Six to Death,[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]TEHRAN - Three men and three women have been stoned to death in public in northern Iran after a court found them guilty of adultery and prostitution, a newspaper reported Sunday.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The report said the stoning was carried out by local citizens in public in town near the Caspian Sea.[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]Under Iran's Islamic laws, prostitution and adultery are illegal and punishable by death"[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Not only "president" Khatami did not oppose the above stoning, but the members of his "Cabinet" continue to support this savage act:[/SIZE]

• [SIZE=+1]Pro-Government Daily Ressalat, April 9 , 1998[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]In response to a question raised by the correspondent of Farda daily on why the Minister had failed to defend the Islamic punishment of stoning in his Paris interviews, Ata'ollah Mohajerani [government spokesman and Minister of Guidance] said: "There is no doubt that we must all defend the Islamic decrees... As for stoning, there is a Quranic verse that says a group of faithful must be witness to it. In this regard there is a debate whether stoning should take place in full public view or whether it could be carried out in the presence of a limited number of faithfuls in a restricted area."[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=+1]The Minister of Islamic Guidance pointed out: "We should keep the interests of our country in mind in an open atmosphere of international public relations. Would it be in our interest if an act of stoning is filmed and broadcast abroad? If not, we should consider carrying out the verdict in front of a small crowd of the believers in order to forestall public backlash."[/SIZE]

you are a complete fool.

do some research before you unleash your stupidity on the world

 

[Flashy]

Surprise, surprise!

i see...so given the choice between your own life or your own death, you would choose death?

Makes sense...good luck with that...let us know when you are about to check out.

 

[Flashy]

I think i forgot to mention he was Jewish and obnoxiously proud of it.

What exactly does him being Jewish have to do with anything you prick?

well...thank goodness there are no obnoxious non-jews who sucker punch people in this world and start fights.

Perhaps you remember these folks...strangely enough, from Australia, chanting "Fuck off Wogs and Lebs"...Cronulla Beach in Sydney

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/12/12/sydney_riots_wideweb__470x313,0.jpg

http://data1.blog.de/blog/n/newsevents/img/Cronulla-beach5.jpg



you're an idiot and prick...probably not in that order.


As much as I normally like Aussies, and have many friends there, not to mention spent a semester of my college days there, sadly, there are pricks like you in every part of the world...even a place as awesome as Australia.

Then again, since you are the resident of a country, whose people never had any presence in Australia, unlike Jews in Israel, that came over on boats and subjugated the Aborigines, you really shouldn't be sniping too much at ISrael.

I suppose folks like yourself easily forget things like the "White Australia Policy"


how convenient.

 

[Flashy]

That's why I wrote the post. I would see someone who was troubled and on a bender that would most likely need a talkin' to at the end of the night.

The only dude that I ever actually punched in the face repeatedly was a guy who slapped a woman. When I went to get him out of the bar... he started windmilling me and as soon as he wore himself out, I actually tried to kill him! lol!!! I ended up kneeling on his chest choking the life out of him.

I saw that guy a few years later (he entered the bar earlier in the day and drank until I got there, the earlier fight was so brutal and rapid that one of the bartenders didn't get a good look at him and they had no idea he was the guy who tried to take my head off) and I dealt with him diplomatically and made sure that he got home in a cab. He later remarked to me that, "I was a good man."

You proved my point Wartrac. lol!!!! But you actually have more diplomatic ability than you probably think that you do, I have seen it on this site and you have been nice to debate with, there are many other right wingers with much less diplomatic ability than you. If every right winger was like you, then this country wouldn't be in this mess it is right now.

but he isn't a right winger, Tri. :smile:

He has already stated that numerous times. He didn't vote for Bush and is very liberal on social policy and most things. Much like myself.

:smile:

 

[tripod]

Flashy, you know how much of a critic of Israel and a defender of the Arab/Muslim way... but your last post was for real. You were not being salacious or one sided, you are presenting some real truths about sharia law. The Iranians are as strict as the Saudis and the Saudis are brutal.

Sharia law on it's face is pretty benign and straightforward... but it has a fucking DISGUSTING underbelly and Flash xposed it here.

I don't know what to say... it is the truth and it is upsetting. I would never wanna visit Iran, but I would love to visit Israel. That is not to discount many interesting urban people who live in the big cities in Iran who hold a moderate and sane view of the Quran, they do exist, but they just get thrown in jail if they ever pipe up.

I don't want to bomb Iran though... I wanna change them from the inside out through the young people so that they will grow up and change the country. Obviously, if they keep threatening Israel (Wiping off the map and being removed from the map are absolutely horrid choices of words, Iran has very little diplomacy and acts like an ass to Israel, I will admit it) then the young people will never have the chance to grow up.

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

That's why I wrote the post. I would see someone who was troubled and on a bender that would most likely need a talkin' to at the end of the night.

The only dude that I ever actually punched in the face repeatedly was a guy who slapped a woman. When I went to get him out of the bar... he started windmilling me and as soon as he wore himself out, I actually tried to kill him! lol!!! I ended up kneeling on his chest choking the life out of him.

I saw that guy a few years later (he entered the bar earlier in the day and drank until I got there, the earlier fight was so brutal and rapid that one of the bartenders didn't get a good look at him and they had no idea he was the guy who tried to take my head off) and I dealt with him diplomatically and made sure that he got home in a cab. He later remarked to me that, "I was a good man."

You proved my point Wartrac. lol!!!! But you actually have more diplomatic ability than you probably think that you do, I have seen it on this site and you have been nice to debate with, there are many other right wingers with much less diplomatic ability than you. If every right winger was like you, then this country wouldn't be in this mess it is right now.

But......I'm......not......a.........right winger

The part about needing to hit someone in the face wasn't because you have a preconceived notion and you stick with it no matter what. I was talking about that gut feeling that no matter what you do something is going to happen. More often than not I was right.

I was just speaking to the blanket statement. It would be like saying that every person on the left is a pacifist and would fold like a house of cards if put in a situation that needed to be fought out of. It's just not true.

 

[B_RedDude]

You obviously can't see through your own rabid biases. Basing the VERY EXISTENCE and identity of a state on a religion is no different than instituting Islamic law in a state; it is simply a matter of degree.

The Jews have NO RIGHT to a sovereign state based on a religion - PERIOD -- I don't care how liberal, tolerant, democratic, etc. The fundamental reason for it's existence and it's identity are based on a religion.

It's blinkered bastards like you that have created this entire situation in that region, and the sooner your kind are hemmed in, the better. Israel has ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO EXIST AS IT WAS CONSTITUTED,
THROUGH THE INFLUENCE OF A COLONIAL POWER.

The United States' continuing support of that horrible, arrogant, land thieving country is one of the most immoral aspects of U.S. foreign policy. In a just world, all of that support would be completely withdrawn. Israel, as a political actor, is simply evil.

P.S. People who have nothing more valid to say often resort to name-calling (your previous posts; moron, prick)

the difference, moron, is Judaism is not the foundation for the political system or the laws. People are free to practice other religions without repression. People live under a democratic and non-religious political and legal system, and their lives are not governed by a theocracy.

Sharia Law, i.e. is the basis for law and government in Iran.

Judaimsm, is the identity of ISrael...not its laws.

you can leave this thread now...that was perhaps the dumbest thing I have ever heard, and all your other opinions and their ignorance now make total sense.

 

[tripod]

But......I'm......not......a.........right winger

The part about needing to hit someone in the face wasn't because you have a preconceived notion and you stick with it no matter what. I was talking about that gut feeling that no matter what you do something is going to happen. More often than not I was right.

I was just speaking to the blanket statement. It would be like saying that every person on the left is a pacifist and would fold like a house of cards if put in a situation that needed to be fought out of. It's just not true.

You have no doubt noticed that I have a problem with generalizing people into categories that they don't necessarily belong to or fit in with. The more that me and you debate the more we agree.

I am sorry for labeling you as a right winger, it was unimaginative and small minded of me. Please forgive me bro.

 

[B_RedDude]

You know, the difference in outlook is a reflection of the difference between the Jewish and Christian moral outlook -- "an eye for an eye" vs. the right to use violence in a prudent way to defend oneself ONLY AT THE TIME that one is being actively attacked.

Many decent people would argue that it is better to lose one's life than to become a perpetrator of violence (i.e., a warmonger). It is the inferior Jewish moral outlook that engenders the attitudes and behavior that underlie many, if not all, of these difficulties.

i see...so given the choice between your own life or your own death, you would choose death?

Makes sense...good luck with that...let us know when you are about to check out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBoy2 [URL]http://www.lpsg.org/images36/buttons/viewpost.gif[/URL]
Surprise, surprise!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flashy [URL]http://www.lpsg.org/images36/buttons/viewpost.gif[/URL]
I'd rather be alive and a warmongerer, than dead and a pacifist, if i had to choose one or the other. No question. :biggrin1: