To US students Beethoven's a dog, Michelangelo a virus

[BIGBULL29]

Yes, Vienna is a very intellectual city (nothing comparable in North America). And German can be a most sophisticated language. That's why I catch myself speaking it and reading it aloud to myself.

I take back what I said: the youth is slightly more intellectual overall in some of the European countries. But anti-intelletualism is spreading like a plague.

 

[lucky8]

But anti-intelletualism is spreading like a plague.

I blame MTV...fully

too many posers in America...YEEAAAAAAHHH BOOOOYYY

 

[BIGBULL29]

I'm not going to disagree with you strongly about the UK education system, which has taken a dive in recent decades, but I know from personal experience that Germans, Scandinavians and Iberians (Spanish and Portuguese) have excellent education systems which produce a populace which is in general extremely intelligent and well informed.

I'm sort of shocked to see you write off multilingualism so casually too, I don't think you really understand European multilingualism at all, and it sounds like you're really just trying to justify the lack of language facility in most Americans by belittling it in Europeans.

I don't think there's any evidence that Liberal Arts Education is best taught at university rather than earlier in life. Besides from what I can tell it's teaching in US universities seems to produce a lot of people (though by no means all) with very superficial understanding of a variety of subjects which they then presume they are expert in when they really aren't.

Ultimately I don't think there's a useful comparison to be made between US and European Universities, they are too dissimilar.

I'm not going to waste my time comparing this country to that country for hours on end, but, yes, the systems are different.

There are still remnants of hard intellectualism that can still be felt in certain countries like Germany, but it's in decay. Besides, you need to remember that someone can be bright and not be an intellectual (Intellectual is more about attitude and desire to learn, whereas being bright is about aptitude for learning or skill in a subject.). And I've already conceded that North Americans are not as philosophical in general as their German and French counterparts, although I've met my fair share of stupid French people and Germans who've very much reminded me of anti-intellectuals at home. Now, on the other hand, the Japanese value education more than any Western society, so perhaps they have us all beat intellectually-speaking.

Many Europeans are not as fluent in other languages as they often let on. (I'm a translator who has spent countless hour with multi-lingual European.) What I consider fluency in a language is different than what many others would consider it to be. Sure, you have a bigger selection of polyglots in certain countries like Switzerland and Belgium, but they have more incentive to learn another language as they live in country where each other's language is commonly heard over the "tiny" land. At any rate, I still commend them for doing so.

I'm not defending Americans for not embracing mutlilingualism. But the fact that Americans don't learn foreigh languages in general is really not all the fault of students, but one of our history and geographical location (isolationism, etc). Things, though, have changed slightly in the past few years as more kids have a bit more interest in picking up a second language with the amount of hispanophones in our society. That said, Québec, to our north, has had very little impact on Americans and other Canadians learning French in the past 200 years.

 

[Pendlum]

Boyo, you were barely alive when the turtles came out the first time round :wink::smile:

That didn't stop me from being a ninja turtle for Halloween when I was little.

 

[B_subgirrl]

That didn't stop me from being a ninja turtle for Halloween when I was little.

:biggrin1: I had a ninja turtle paint shirt for school that my mum made me. It had Raphael on it of course, coz he was the coolest.

I'm just confused about when they lost their eyes. The original turtles had eyes! Who thought it would be a good idea to get rid of the eyes on the most recent reincarnation?

 

[ghb69]

Only to add fuel to the fire. Ask a high school graduate to count change with out a digital read out, or ask them what clockwise, or counter clockwise is??. Education totally went down the tubes with the no student left behind. Pass them so they are not look down upon by their peers.

I am sorry, but by doing that you are teaching youth today that everything they want will be theirs and they never have to work to get it.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Shows what they know, Michelangelo was a ninja turtle.

You win the thread. LOL!! :biggrin1:

 

[BIGBULL29]

Only to add fuel to the fire. Ask a high school graduate to count change with out a digital read out, or ask them what clockwise, or counter clockwise is??. Education totally went down the tubes with the no student left behind. Pass them so they are not look down upon by their peers.

I am sorry, but by doing that you are teaching youth today that everything they want will be theirs and they never have to work to get it.

Yep, those things all contributed to the downfall in education.

 

[Hockeytiger]

It's not that they didn't know these things, but rather that those answers were more meaningful to them. Please note that nowhere in the study did it say that they didn't know who Beethoven and Michelangelo were, but rather it found that the alternative versions that they give were more meaningful to them rather than what I or we would have answered. That only makes sense.

My mother considers me ignorant for referring to the Republic of China as Taiwan and not "China" and the mainland China as "China" or "The PRC" and not "Red China".

Why should students these days need to write in cursive? With the proliferation and miniaturization of computers and word processing it is unnecessary.

Students used to have to learn Latin. While some still do, it is rarely a requirement anymore. Learning things merely because your father had to learn them is very regressive.

The point of the study was to show that as generations change cultural references change and we need to be aware of that.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Why should students these days need to write in cursive? With the proliferation and miniaturization of computers and word processing it is unnecessary.

Yep... totally unnecessary. That is, of course, until there's no electricity. :wink:

A few weeks ago, I actually had to sign my partner's name on a piece of paper and I was amazed as to how I had to stop myself and remember how to write certain letters in cursive. Technology is only good as long as it doesn't make you forget how to do other things. There will never be a moment (at least in our lifetime) where not knowing cursive or how to handwrite will not come in handy. Before my nieces and nephews grab a keyboard and learn how to type, they better know how to at least write their names.

Students used to have to learn Latin. While some still do, it is rarely a requirement anymore. Learning things merely because your father had to learn them is very regressive.

Although I never had to learn Latin, there was a course in my middle school that went through Greek & Latin word parts. It helped students how to recognize words in the English language that they may not know, by recognizing well known word starters and enders such as "pre-" and "-tion" and learning what those parts mean. Perhaps that may not need to be a full semester course, but anyone can see the benefits of such knowledge especially when it comes to tests like the SAT. It should be a part of regular English studies.

The point of the study was to show that as generations change cultural references change and we need to be aware of that.

But even if popular culture changes, there's still actual historical fact that needs to be addressed. The fact that there are actually students out there that don't know who Beethoven and Michalangelo are, two of the most influential musical & visual artists in the world, demonstrates a major disconnect between the mindsets of kids and proper education. They either don't know (which is bad in its own right) or don't care (which might be even worse). Considering how our students in our country are ranked among some of the worst in Science & Mathematics compared to others, just assuming that they know this stuff doesn't cut it anymore.

And don't get me started on Ebonics... :biggrin1:

 

[B_dxjnorto]

I agree with bigbull that multilingualism is more serendipity than educational system. The window of opportunity for picking up languages is somewhere between birth and adolescence, although people like bigbull learn in adulthood. Some people are good at it and for some people it requires an extreme amount of education and effort to pick up a second or third language in adulthood. I have met people who have lived in the U.S. for thirty years or longer and communicating in English is more like a game of charades. Or people who don't learn at all, which is difficult for me to understand how they could be that isolated or that ignorant. I just know that utility with languages seems to be highly individual.

I do agree that the U.S. higher education system has always been probably too broad and unspecialized and not very realistically related to specific careers. Lately I think it is just an industry like any other with maybe only incidental relation to industry. You do your practicums and internships, then you get out of college and you're still like what the fuck is my job going to be? Another part is that U.S. students are flagging in hard sciences, because hard science is well, hard!

There is a failure there. A core failure of reality and feedback. Our whole system is like that. Unrelated. Relations tend to be tangential and coincidental, rather than, I'm told, more purposeful relationships between industry and education in some European nations. Relationships between government, education and industry tend to be more adversarial in the U.S. I guess that's the whole idea behind capitalism. Every man for himself. Winner takes the spoils. We need government guidance though for some things that span generations like infrastructure changes. Setting up hydrogen power filling stations like in Norway I think it is, or an electrical grid that can handle plug-in quick charging of electric automobiles. Our political system is at odds with things like this. Every four years, they take a year off to fight over who will be next in charge, and the longest you can go is eight years.

I used to think I got a fairly decent public education, but when I think back on it, I should have gotten better. I'm a pretty smart person. I'm not great at math, but I can do math. I should have been diverted toward an engineering degree. Something productive. Capitalism depends on production and consumption. Now we are lopsided because we are still among the world's biggest consumers, but production is outsourced. We want to buy things so cheaply that we are all putting ourselves out of jobs.

Teachers already spend money out of their own pockets for teaching supplies and school supplies. Now we are cutting dollars out of educational budgets that are already below water to fund wars and bank bailouts. U.S. kids are going to get even stupider and we may fall further behind.

It seems like we always ingeniously pull our heads out of our asses somehow. I'm getting old enough that I'm starting to think and talk like my grandparents and granduncles.

 

[TomCat84]

Making zillions of dollars has never been my goal, either.

I have a Master's in linguistics, so you're not talking to someone who has never gone to university (got my Master's in Australia).:biggrin1:

I'm talking more about universities in the US anyways. I feel sorry for the serious students who come out with so much debt and no job.

The United States has some of the best universities in the world- the University of California system alone has so many EXCELLENT schools- Berkeley, Los Angeles, San Diego, Davis, Irvine- to say nothing of the private schools across the country, like Harvard, Yale, MIT, etc. No other country can match the extensive and prestigous universities this country has to offer. The public school system is one that needs work here, not the university system.

 

[Hockeytiger]

Let me point this out again. This study is not about studying the US educational system. Rather, the study was meant to evaluate the evolution of cultural habits and cultural references amongst the generations.

It has been a long time since I've taken a look at this annual study. But if I recall correctly, students are asked a series of questions, most of which are in the format of "finish the following sentence". For example, "Beethoven was..." They are asked to write in the first thing that comes to mind in answering the question. In such a question, answering "a movie dog" is just as valid as "a composer". The point of the study is to find changes in culture amongst the generations. It DOES NOT mean that they don't know that Beethoven was a composer. It just means that when presented with the word "Beethoven" a plurality of US college students first think of the movie dog rather than the composer. To me that makes sense and in no way reflects on their cultural literacy.

 

[BIGBULL29]

I agree with bigbull that multilingualism is more serendipity than educational system. The window of opportunity for picking up languages is somewhere between birth and adolescence, although people like bigbull learn in adulthood. Some people are good at it and for some people it requires an extreme amount of education and effort to pick up a second or third language in adulthood. I have met people who have lived in the U.S. for thirty years or longer and communicating in English is more like a game of charades. Or people who don't learn at all, which is difficult for me to understand how they could be that isolated or that ignorant. I just know that utility with languages seems to be highly individual..

Thanks for the agree!

Kids being bilingual in Switzerland is not some amazing feat. But, if you take an adult and get him to learn a few foreign languages fluently, then I'm impressed

I do agree that the U.S. higher education system has always been probably too broad and unspecialized and not very realistically related to specific careers. Lately I think it is just an industry like any other with maybe only incidental relation to industry. You do your practicums and internships, then you get out of college and you're still like what the fuck is my job going to be? Another part is that U.S. students are flagging in hard sciences, because hard science is well, hard!

And that can be a major problem of a liberal arts education. Years ago, not many folks had college degrees, and when they did, they go jobs instantly, even if sometimes the job was very unrelated to their field (so an old professor told me once). I do think a liberal arts education is fantastic, but everything is about practicality and specialty today. We no longer in times where people are paid and admired to learn for learning's sake and then go and entertain other intellectuals of the day and the monarchy.

 

[pleasureboy]

Just curious, where does this idea that Americans as so non-multilingual come from?

I would actually say American youth deserve a bit of extra 'props' for tending to know at least some of another language BECAUSE they have so few opportunities to use them compared to their European counterparts. In Europe, people get 4-6 weeks off a year (usually paid) for vacation and can travel a couple of hours by train in several directions and be immersed in a different language.

In the US, most people if they get a vacation at all, get 1-2 weeks, and for most it's not paid. Then they have to pay a thousand dollars to fly 12-20 hours just to get to either Europe or Asia where they can just be at the same starting point as their European counterparts. The fact that most Americans learn two years of foreign language in high school even though most don't get the chance to use it, and that then most get minimum another 3 semesters in either that language or another as part of their BA in a country where they really have to go out of their way just to find someone with whom to speak it says a lot for them.

So many of these criticisms of Americans being isolated, or unexposed to foreign languages or cultures assume a lack of interest, yet they totally ignore the economic and logistic realities of living in America versus living in Europe.

If Europeans made as little money compared to cost of living as Americans do, and if they had to pay for their healthcare, education, transportation, and all that like Americans do, and if a vacation/holiday for them was like Americans, something they have to save money for all year, then spend half of it only getting close to their destination, then do that vacation with either no income or greatly reduced income, all the while wondering if they'll still have their job when they get home (because they dared actually take their vacation), then perhaps they too would not quite have the exposure to other cultures they assume is due to a lack of interest on the part of Americans...

 

[boerkie]

Shows what they know, Michelangelo was a ninja turtle.

laffin out loud!! good one!!!

 

[superbot]

Just curious, where does this idea that Americans as so non-multilingual come from?

I would actually say American youth deserve a bit of extra 'props' for tending to know at least some of another language BECAUSE they have so few opportunities to use them compared to their European counterparts. In Europe, people get 4-6 weeks off a year (usually paid) for vacation and can travel a couple of hours by train in several directions and be immersed in a different language.

In the US, most people if they get a vacation at all, get 1-2 weeks, and for most it's not paid. Then they have to pay a thousand dollars to fly 12-20 hours just to get to either Europe or Asia where they can just be at the same starting point as their European counterparts. The fact that most Americans learn two years of foreign language in high school even though most don't get the chance to use it, and that then most get minimum another 3 semesters in either that language or another as part of their BA in a country where they really have to go out of their way just to find someone with whom to speak it says a lot for them.

So many of these criticisms of Americans being isolated, or unexposed to foreign languages or cultures assume a lack of interest, yet they totally ignore the economic and logistic realities of living in America versus living in Europe.

If Europeans made as little money compared to cost of living as Americans do, and if they had to pay for their healthcare, education, transportation, and all that like Americans do, and if a vacation/holiday for them was like Americans, something they have to save money for all year, then spend half of it only getting close to their destination, then do that vacation with either no income or greatly reduced income, all the while wondering if they'll still have their job when they get home (because they dared actually take their vacation), then perhaps they too would not quite have the exposure to other cultures they assume is due to a lack of interest on the part of Americans...

Europeans do pay for their healthcare, transport,education.Who do you think pays for it,the man in the moon?!...If most American's don't get paid annual leave then that's your own fault,you need to fight for it like most of us had to do.Trouble with America is that it doesn't do 'society',it's all about the individual!!

 

[pleasureboy]

Sure you guys 'pay' (I've spent years paying into those same systems over there) but much of these services are heavily subsidized by the government and not in an amount equivalent to the added taxes paid. I truly doubt most Europeans could afford to live if they had to pay the same amounts for all this stuff that Americans do.

Do I think it's a good system on our side? Absolutely not! Europeans have a a much higher potential for enjoying life. And let's face it, it's almost impossible to starve to death or be homeless (unless by choice) in most of the EU. In the US, most people are one small illness, traffic accident, or missed paycheck away from total irreparable economic ruin. Yes, it's a truly sad situation that the most capable, richest, and most innovative country on earth has such a poor system of social justice.

But, when I spend decades hearing how 'Americans never travel" or "Americans don't speak other languages" or "Americans never bother to see the world" and those people never account for the very different nature of the two societies and how most Americans can work their entire lives and never be able to afford to (truly afford with money, not choose not to) leave the country, it's just a sad set of ignorant assumptions on the part of European critics.

So within the context of this thread, the fact that most Americans DO learn a foreign language even with the knowledge that they will likely never get the chance to actually use it, should be lauded and is to me much more a sign of an interest in the world than having to learn a language because the country next door speaks it and you have to use that language for business or travel.

And, one final thing, America DOES do society. They do it far more than Europeans do, they just do it differently. Sure they have this misguided ideal that the government shouldn't do things that most governments do. BUT, no people on earth give more of their time and money to charities than Americans do. Americans do do society, they just believe helping others is something people themselves should do, and instead of protesting for their government to do something, they actually get out their pocketbooks and write a check out of their own accounts. I very rarely saw this to even remotely the same scale in Europe. And even if you look at governments, the US gives more money to development and relief funds every year than all other countries on earth combined. Heck of a way not to 'do society'.

 

[BIGBULL29]

Europeans do pay for their healthcare, transport,education.Who do you think pays for it,the man in the moon?!...If most American's don't get paid annual leave then that's your own fault,you need to fight for it like most of us had to do.Trouble with America is that it doesn't do 'society',it's all about the individual!!

North Americans, in general, are much more charitable than their Europeans counterparts. They give so much more to their poor (I was unaware of this until I lived over there.). So, it's not always about the individual here (maybe politically, but not socially) :biggrin1:.

(I'm off to Asia!)

 

[superbot]

North Americans are much more charitable than their Europeans counterparts. They give so much more to their poor, and I was unaware of this until I loved over there. So, it's not always about the individual here (maybe politically, but not socially) :biggrin1:.

I'm not engaging in an America vs. Europe debate - again!

(I'm off to Asia!)

Whose talking about giving to charity,the point mentioned was annual leave.Besides I doubt for one micro second that you have the faintest idea what each European country donates to charity anyway.The fact that the US is only now' in 2010 getting round to securing affordable universal healthcare is hardly the mark of a civilized and compassionate nation!!