Trust between men

[mtl85]

Hello everybody.

I have been with the lpsg site from the very beginning and over the years I have been communicating with a large number of people from all walks of life, different nationalities and a multitude of sexual orientations.

This has taught me a lot and as so many questions have been raised, more and more answers have had to be found.

Knowing how some people who visit the site tend to jump on posts which go against their initial way of thinking, I specifically ask you to please take the time to properly reflect at what I am writing before pushing the respond button.

Now to what I feel I have come to realise.

I think there is a huge need among men for other male friends.

No, I am not talking about another buddy to have a few drinks with, or to watch the next game with. I am talking about a friend who we can be open, honest and vulnerable with, without the fear of having what we have just confessed to, be thrown back into our faces with a laugh.

One of the reasons for why I think this is the case is that I during these years of communicating about sensative issues with others over the net, I have met a unproportionable amount of men who have what they describe as bisexual tendencies.
At first, I often assumed that it was bisexual and gay men who, through their sexual orientation, were more likely to contribute to a site dedicated to a topic such as penis size.
While I still think this may well be true to some extent, I have now begun to think that a very large group of men have misinterpreted their need and longing for a close non-sexual relationship with other males for being bisexual urges.

As those of you who have been in contact with me over the years know, I am far from being a homophobe, so I am not saying that those who really are bisexual are wrong in any way.

As humans we are all sexual beings and as we all know, our sex drive is very powerful and I believe we all depend on being reassured by others in order to feel good about ourselves.
Women compliment eachother all the time, but often do us men actually compliment eachother ?
Sure, we probably all think it, but for whatever reasons it usually stops with a thought inside our own heads.

I have a feeling that many men who think they might be bisexual, really just crave a close and open relationship with one or several other men.

All of us who come to the lpsg site know how easy it is to talk openly and honestly when we are on-line, but very few of us would be comfortable ever talking about these same issues when face to face with somebody.

Not long ago, I had a chat with a middleaged person who told me he is married. He also said he has bisexual urges.
His limited experiences of male to male sexual contacts had extended to mutual masturbation sessions.
His wife was not aware.
He also told me that these mutual masturbation sessions with other men had not been as rewarding as he had hoped they would be.
He was left with a very empty feeling afterwards as these relationships didn't lead to any closeness between the two men, which was really what he had been hoping for.

I wouldn't be entirely truthful if I didn't admit to sometimes having questioned my own sexual feelings over the years, but as I have come to the conclusion that I really do not have any sexual desire for males, I have come to realise that I have a strong need for close non-sexual bonds with other men.

This post is starting to get very long, and I fear nobody is going to take the time to read it through if I continue rambling on, so I will leave it at this, and hopefully others will add to this thread with their own feelings and thoughts.

Regards

jumbo747jet

Brilliant.

 

[Trigon]

LMAO:biggrin1::biggrin1:

What's really funny is that I've met dudes like that! Man, I feel so comfortable hanging out with you, [Trigon]. Like we got a serious bond just talking here! CAN I FEEL YOUR THING?!

WTF? I'm like, "Would you like to feel the bones in your arm breaking?!"

All kidding aside, I hope Jumbo finds the kind of real, authentic friendship that he is looking for. I'm not sure the kind of male bonding he described will always happen as organically as it has in the past, because there aren't as many experiences bringing men together as there used to be. In the near future, maybe, two guys who are really comfortable with each other and want something closer [not sex] will have to plan a bath or shower together, since it probably won't happen any other way.

I have a really good, great buddy that I've never bathed with and have no desire to bathe with, and I don't think we're missing out on anything. However, if there are guys out there that feel differently, that's between them, and I'm not going to judge.

I do think, however, that if you feel this overwhelming interest in your best bud's ding-dong, you must entertain the possibility that you might be bi --at least, bi.

I think that guys, who befriend other guys with some secret agenda to get something sexual going are insensitive pricks, who know exactly what they're doing and don't give a shit about anybody else's feelings, but their own. Don't be one of these self-denying assholes out here, who really tries to be another guy's best pal, but becomes more and more transparently homo and just winds up looking like a big user, when the truth comes out. Don't try to blame it on the other guy with some bullshit about him sending out mixed signals either, when you know you've been trying to seduce him the whole time.

It's a really shitty feeling when you find out your new best-bud-in-the-whole-world just wants to bang you like a rusty churchbell, and I know, because I've been that guy. You feel a little violated, and it's almost impossible to forgive.

 

[Adam70]

Men, I have not read all the posts on this thread but from what I read I am extremely happy to have found this site. As a gay man I innitially joined because I have an obvious interest in penisses but what I long for, like many others on here, is a close bond with men, str8 and gay and whatever else. If such a connection leads to something sexual, well, so be it but that is not what I am looking for primarily. Jumbo, I did read you post and I couldnt have said it better. My question is, if so many of us wants this, why are we not having it? Perhaps the risk of putting oneself out there with your emotional needs is too much, but then again, is that not what we as men do, take risks? Do we not take risks everytime we approach a women or man for sex? or when we show our tools in the lockerrooms? why not take a risk to be emotionally close and bonded to another man?

 

[CUBE]

I think many men need the companionship of another man on an itimate level...but not all men...which makes those that do isolated and not clear on when or how to reach out.

When I was in college I had this relationship with my best buddy. It was hard on us at times because we had no model to follow. He was straight, I am gay. We got physical a few times... we shouldn't have looking back... we just didn't know how to be close in the bonding we both needed. We even talked about how we loved each other and wanted the other to find love. It was a rewarding time yet painful. I am still in contact with him today but he goes back and forth on our friendship. I think on some level he feels if we are close then we are cheating on out partners...yet I'm not talking sexual contact...emotional connection only.

To those men that can achieve the platonic yet emotional bond of another man...I envy them. I miss my buddy so much

 

[D_Aston Asstonne]

I gotta admit,ive spent most of my 40 years friendless.as i realized long ago most are fair weather.When folks grow up and stop the gossipping backstabbing bullshit,ill be sociable and maybe even have friends,till then..im a loner.

 

[unzipped]

It is very unnerving to befriend a guy and find out later he is attracted to you and wants to blow you. This happened with a "friend" that knew I was totally straight and still pushed. It even got so far as after of night of partying he tried to grope my bulge and tell me he knew I would like it.. yada yada yada... Needless to say, I firmly grapped his arm and shook him back to his senses... We rarely see one another anymore...
UZ

 

[unzipped]

meant "grabbed" not grapped... sorry big fat fingers too...

 

[SpoiledPrincess]

It's not so long ago that men were taught to be 'men', to control their emotions, to be masculine, not to cry, now men are taught to be in touch with their emotions, to talk about how they feel but it seems to me that men now have more trouble bonding deeply than they ever did. That's from my perspective of course.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

In our tribal days we tended to hunt animals much larger than ourselves. This meant that we needed to hunt in groups. It became necessary for men to heavily rely on their fellow hunters. Strong relationships were needed for selfless protection of each other. The survival of the tribe relied on these close bonds between the men who hunted.

I believe that today's men still feel the need to bond very closely with other men, but that homophobia and other cultural phenomena prevent this. I also believe that our "soft" modern life offers men the luxury to be homophobic. For example, the aforementioned tribal hunters who needed to bond closely with each other. They needed to form relationships; It was a matter of life and death. When I see veterans cry about friends who died during the war, it reminds me of how close men can get in dangerous and desperate situations.

Thanks to the 80's, men now compete against each other for toys. Thanks to ego, men are too embarrassed to open up to each other about their weaknesses. Thanks to homophobia, men are not very likely to show any curiosity about other men.

These days when heterosexual men group together it's not uncommon for them to make homophobic remarks as part of their bonding experience. The opposite was true in ancient Greece and Rome. Imagine Athenian warriors rubbing oil on each other's naked bodies, braiding each other's hair, and putting make up on each other's eyes before a battle -- reaffirming their relationships. Imagine a Roman student having a public sexual relationship with his male teacher to display their closeness. Socrates had many "close" students. According to Plato, the only type of real love is the love between two men, and he has dedicated two of his dialogues to that subject: the Symposium and the Phaedrus. Plato believed that homo-erotic love, between student and teacher, is related to education and gaining knowledge, and this makes it superior to other types of love.

In short, I believe that man were once much more open with each other about their thoughts and feelings, and that cultural changes (mostly religion) pressured men to hide, or even deny these thoughts and feelings.

Here are two related quotes which I love:

"Individually we are weak, like a single twig, but as a bundle we form a mighty faggot." -- Martin Prince (The Simpsons.)

"Within the typical secondary school curriculum, homosexuals do not exist. They are "nonpersons" in the finest Stalinist sense. They have fought no battles, held no offices, explored nowhere, written no literature, built nothing, invented nothing and solved no equations. The lesson to the heterosexual student is abundantly clear: homosexuals do nothing of consequence. To the homosexual student, the message has even greater power: no one who has ever felt as you do has done anything worth mentioning." --Gerald Unks, editor, The Gay Teen, p. 5.

 

[arliss]

great post:biggrin1::biggrin1: I totally agree

 

[B_Hung Jon]

It's not so long ago that men were taught to be 'men', to control their emotions, to be masculine, not to cry, now men are taught to be in touch with their emotions, to talk about how they feel but it seems to me that men now have more trouble bonding deeply than they ever did. That's from my perspective of course.

Wow SP your characterization of men's situation is pretty clear. But I also feel that in my generation of guys there's less of the trouble stuff because we've grown up with gay & lesbians peeps so most of us have diverse friendships. If some guy wants to be my friend, I'm not surprised if he may be interested in me sexually as well. It's what happens to girls all the time. Why should gay guys hide their interest in sex?

 

[Trigon]

It's not so long ago that men were taught to be 'men', to control their emotions, to be masculine, not to cry, now men are taught to be in touch with their emotions, to talk about how they feel but it seems to me that men now have more trouble bonding deeply than they ever did. That's from my perspective of course.

I think the men of times past (Industrial Era and prior) were and always have been in touch with their emotions, while not always indulging a verbal expression of these feelings--physical stuff. Great observation, Princess.

 

[SpoiledPrincess]

It might be fanciful but I think some of why men are out of touch with their emotions is because none of them work manually any more, when a man works manually he's more aware of his physical limitations, if he's working manually it's often at something he's done day in and day out for years so it leaves his mind free to think, now men's minds are engaged all day so they can't spend much time thinking, but their physical capacity is something they only know through a mainly unnatural testing of it like going to the gym.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

It might be fanciful but I think some of why men are out of touch with their emotions is because none of them work manually any more, when a man works manually he's more aware of his physical limitations, if he's working manually it's often at something he's done day in and day out for years so it leaves his mind free to think, now men's minds are engaged all day so they can't spend much time thinking, but their physical capacity is something they only know through a mainly unnatural testing of it like going to the gym.

I totally agree SP. I guess I'm fanciful also... but wouldn't meditation bring the same result? I know many guys who are very aggressive about their jobs and getting ahead, but neglect the things that are most important like their kids or marriage. My grandmother used to say, "struggle brings you closer to God."

 

[Strontium]

...
These days when heterosexual men group together it's not uncommon for them to make homophobic remarks as part of their bonding experience. The opposite was true in ancient Greece and Rome. Imagine Athenian warriors rubbing oil on each other's naked bodies, braiding each other's hair, and putting make up on each other's eyes before a battle -- reaffirming their relationships...

Mmmm! Hot!

This reminds me of the wonderful times that I've exchanged a massage with my gym buddy, after a workout. An activity I must revisit...

 

[SpoiledPrincess]

Mine used to say hard work never killed anyone which isn't so different. I don't think meditation has quite the same effect as simply thinking, meditation to me is a conscious forced attempt to get in touch with your self, to discover who you are, I think the unconscious letting thoughts in while you're doing something is much more likely to be relevant.

 

[goodwood]

Jumbo -
This was an excellent post and very well stated. Thank you for that. I have to concur with your conclusions. I hope that the men here are able to have a close, confidential and trusting relationship with other men. I think it is an innate desire to be close to another person of the same sex to be understood, listened to. It does seem to be rare and have a negative stigma attached to it. That need not be the case. Thanks again Jumbo.

 

[Hunt3ed]

I have to agree about much that has been said here. Ancient civilisations encouraged male bonding, the steam rooms and the baths, athletics, war. But modern thinking of equality has actually been damning and emasculating for men. Non discriminatory policies have led to the banning, for politically correct reasons, of; male only public baths, male only bars, male only hairdressers, men's clubs, works clubs......... The list is endless.

With increasing populations, the increasing incidence of publicised cases of paedophiles, homophobic behavior and such, all add up to the reasons why men are less and less inclined to form stronger mutually supporting bonds.

In our quest to become more egalitarian, we have lost our more noble virtues of; Honour, Valour and Dignity. We have replaced these with Pride, Arrogance and Fear. Being a humble man today is not a good thing, as ones humility, is now taken to be a weakness and not a strength.

We don't stop the pick pockets in the street as we know we will have no support if they struggle or draw a weapon. We don't stop children from running into the street in front of cars in case we get sued for bruising them. We don't open car doors for our women as we are told it demeans them as not being equal!..

The exclusion of individuals based on race, religion and sex is frowned upon. Yet we naturally segregate ourselves any how. Yet there are countless, woman only sanctuaries, health spars, beauty clinics and retreats, and yet so few similar facilities for men. The men only saunas around here are strictly Gay! I believe that we should rethink our current ethics, so that a more holistic approach is made to how we govern our lives, and how we run our lives should be made. An approach that looks at issues that are more pertinent to the welfare of the greater community, and not just the rights of an individual. To deal with issues of fear, such as homophobia, and such, we need to engender, trust and respect. We focus our petty fears on issues like homosexuality, as we are dis-empowered to deal with more important issues like the petty criminal, and personal security. Encouraging, male bonding, is a good thing. Yet to do so on any scale, actually is an infringement of the laws of our society and goes contra to modern political values.

I've walked naked in London, in support of gay Pride, and not been arrested, or molested. I've stepped out of my front door naked to collect the milk and been arrested for indecent exposure, I was sodomised in the holding cells. You go figure that one out!

Any way I find this thread inspiring, and I will go forth and see what I can do to encourage male bonding, in a Platonic way of course, if for no other reason than to empower myself with in the community that I currently reside. Oh and maybe to look at some hunky bodies LOL ..

 

[jumbo747jet]

Personally I think equality is a good thing, and I really don't think that us men can blame women for our own shortcomings.

There are no laws preventing us men from bonding better with eachother. I think it is our own fears which stand in our way.

 

[Hunt3ed]

Hold on there big man, not blaming women at all. Nor am I saying that equality is a bad thing. I'm just saying that sometimes we do the right thing for noble reasons, and the consequences are not always what we would have liked to have expected. But yes fear and ignorance are the biggest barriers.