Amnesty for Illegal aliens????

[Belly_Dancer]

Madame Zora has said it all.

On another note:

Although I've always been sympathetic toward immigrants to the U.S., now that I'm a U.S. Citizen in Canada (legally), in the process of immigrating myself, I'm even more sympathetic.

There was a time when you could move pretty much wherever you wanted to in the world, provided you had what it took to get there and survive there.

I hope that kind of freedom finds a place in the future of the world, not just the U.S.

 

[madame_zora]

Madame Zora has said it all.

On another note:

Although I've always been sympathetic toward immigrants to the U.S., now that I'm a U.S. Citizen in Canada (legally), in the process of immigrating myself, I'm even more sympathetic.

There was a time when you could move pretty much wherever you wanted to in the world, provided you had what it took to get there and survive there.

I hope that kind of freedom finds a place in the future of the world, not just the U.S.

If you wouldn't mind, would you tell me, in a general way, what it took for you to get your legal alien status there? I may be coming and I'd like to know.

 

[SteveHd]

Yeah, you want to make a system of legal entry for immigrants now- glad that wasn't the case when YOUR family immigrated though, eh?

Actually my distant relatives were legal immigrants. This thread is about "illegal aliens" which is a different status to most people. I see that you don't make a distinction.

 

[Belly_Dancer]

If you wouldn't mind, would you tell me, in a general way, what it took for you to get your legal alien status there? I may be coming and I'd like to know.

At present, I'm here legally as a "visitor." I have approximately one year to obtain a work visa or permanent resident status and am in the process of doing so. If you'd like more info, you're welcome to PM me.

 

[madame_zora]

Actually my distant relatives were legal immigrants. This thread is about "illegal aliens" which is a different status to most people. I see that you don't make a distinction.

No, I don't- not at all. That's why we're arguing.

What percentage of Americans do YOU believe are the decendants of people who came here before papers were required?

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

Do any of you have any idea how the world works at all? Most of these posts are so completely useless it boggles the mind, because they don't address reality at all!

People come here from Mexico because of migratory labor patterns that have existed for hundreds of years- BEFORE America was even a country!

People come here for work because they can make TEN TIMES as much money here than there. NOWHERE else in the world is the wage discrepancy so great across one border. Say you make $10 and hour on your job- would YOU cross a border to make $100? If you say no, you're a goddamned liar.

What does it have to do with stopping illegal immigration? What does it have to do with the federal government guarding the border as the Constitution defines is its job? Nothing. You just have such a severe victim mentality, you assume anytime anyone talks about "the illegal problem" you think they're racists, blaming the immigrants first, etc. Wrong. My beef is with the government, not with the Mexicans crossing over. I sympathize with their plight and if I were in their shoes I might do the same. The problem is our government refusing to enforce its laws and refusing to protect the border. And refusing to give penalties to employers who hire illegals and lure them across. If you are really concerned with these illegal immigrants, why are you not concerned with the American working poor whose jobs they take, and whose wages they undercut?

 

[earllogjam]

Everybody's got immigration problems.

Syria- Iraqi refugees
Italy-Croatian, Serbian, immigrants
France - North African immigrants
Mexico- Central and South American immigrants
Japan - Korean and Chinese immigrants
Israel- Russian Jews
Germany- Turkish immigrants
England- Pakistani immigrants
Vancouver- Hong Kong exiles
South Africa- the rest of Africa
Singapore- Indonesian immigrants
Thailand- Laotian, Cambodian immigrants
Dominican Republic- Haitian immigrants

Immigration is a fact of life, everywhere there is a wealth disparity between counties. The only way to fix the problem (if it is one) it is to bring up the standard of living in ALL countries and promote social mobility and stability in those countries where there is an exodus of the disenfranchised. Easier said than done, but are we even trying anymore?

Sealing the borders isn't going to stem the flow of illegals. It will just slow it down. The root of the problem- poverty, lack of social mobility, and hopelessness, will always trigger immigration, that has been the pattern throught history. Unless we take steps to rectify this problem there will be no long term relief to illegal immigration. The short term answers being proposed are just like taking asprin for a broken leg. Think twice about foreign aid and helping developing countries. We are all linked together people. When are we going to realize that this is one planet?

 

[SteveHd]

When are we going to realize that this is one planet?

It's one planet arbitrarily divided into nations. Illegal immigration is a man-made problem and I don't see any solutions anytime soon. Citizens won't give up their borders.

 

[earllogjam]

It's one planet arbitrarily divided into nations. Illegal immigration is a man-made problem and I don't see any solutions anytime soon. Citizens won't give up their borders.

The EU did.

 

[SteveHd]

Would the Moroccans agree with that?

 

[madame_zora]

What does it have to do with stopping illegal immigration? What does it have to do with the federal government guarding the border as the Constitution defines is its job? Nothing. You just have such a severe victim mentality, you assume anytime anyone talks about "the illegal problem" you think they're racists, blaming the immigrants first, etc. Wrong.

You're wrong about what I think too. I think that when people are freaking out about illegal immigration it's because they think the immigrants are going to cut unfairly into their share of the pie. It is THIS concept that I find disgusting. If we're going to disagree, let's at least disagree with what we really think. I think most people are greedy and selfish, as I posted twice in this thread. It grosses me out.

My beef is with the government, not with the Mexicans crossing over. I sympathize with their plight and if I were in their shoes I might do the same.

Of course, anyone would.

The problem is our government refusing to enforce its laws and refusing to protect the border. And refusing to give penalties to employers who hire illegals and lure them across.

I don't understand. If you understand why the Mexicans come over, and you'd do it yourself, why are you criticising the government for not enforcing the border protection laws? Is it because the immigrant workers are evidence that our borders are susceptible to terrorism? What are we protecting our borders from? Mexico isn't trying to attack us, or take us over- I just don't get it.

If you're just mad about the government saying one thing and doing another, I can't believe you're that surprised. Maybe I'm just missing something.

If you are really concerned with these illegal immigrants, why are you not concerned with the American working poor whose jobs they take, and whose wages they undercut?

Eek, that's what I was afraid of. No, I'm not worried about that. If they were allowed to work here, their incomes would be taxed, and would benefit our nation as a whole. They could be covered by healthcare rather than being a drain on emergency rooms. They would have to compete against Americans for promotions, so they'd have to learn more skills. We'd have to compete against a workforce willing to work for less, so we'd have to develop new skills- all I can see is growth and everyone winning.

Every immigrant culture has added something to the growth of America- we don't say "why'd we ever let Germans in?" anymore, do we? Or Africans? Or Indians? Every culture has had to make their place here, we've got nothing to fear from Mexicans (but fear itself).

 

[Matthew]

If they were allowed to work here, their incomes would be taxed, and would benefit our nation as a whole.

Not to nitpick, but rather to add on to your point (which I strongly agree with), many illegal immigrants DO pay income and social security taxes. They just don't reap the full benefits of doing so, because their social security numbers aren't real.

 

[findfirefox]

Not to nitpick, but rather to add on to your point (which I strongly agree with), many illegal immigrants DO pay income and social security taxes. They just don't reap the full benefits of doing so, because their social security numbers aren't real.

I found this interesting and decided to see if I could find anything and I did!

Illegal immigrants paying taxes as example of good citizenship | The San Diego Union-Tribune

Niffty

 

[dong20]

The EU did.

Not exactly. Some internal borders between some EU nations are certainly very relaxed, some to the point of being all but invisible. But many are not, they still exist and are enforced - as they were last Sunday when I caught a train from Budapest to Bratislava and as they will be tomorrow when I take a Jetfoil to Vienna and again on the way back.

I hold an EU member passport so I should have no problems, if I held say a Zimbabwean one (even with a visa), things may be very different.

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Do any of you have any idea how the world works at all? Most of these posts are so completely useless it boggles the mind, because they don't address reality at all!

People come here from Mexico because of migratory labor patterns that have existed for hundreds of years- BEFORE America was even a country!

People come here for work because they can make TEN TIMES as much money here than there. NOWHERE else in the world is the wage discrepancy so great across one border. Say you make $10 and hour on your job- would YOU cross a border to make $100? If you say no, you're a goddamned liar.

ALL of us are the decendants of immigrants. Shut the fuck up.

Stop saying they should go through "proper chanels" as if that were a possiblity, your stupidity makes me sick. Read a book.

I do understand the reality of the situation, however America and Mexico, as seems to be the discussion in this case, need to talk at governmental level to resolve the problem. Obvious statement, I know, but we too have a similar situation in Britain with Eastern Europeans coming over for fiscal reasons, rather than social (although the two are linked closely). Don't get me wrong, it's not a personal or nationalistic thing, but I do know personally alot of immigrants who have come over for work...and they work bloody hard! To be embarrassingly hoonest, they put alot of British workers to shame! The point I was trying to make is that each and every person I know in that situation has gone through the 'proper channels' and they enjoy all the benefits Britain has to offer. On the other side of the fence (if you pardon the expression) are the illegal immigrants, who have to dodge and dive to make a living and more often than not find themselves in trouble with the law and local people who object to them "taking their jobs". It is a very real situation that there are many thousands of jobs here that many thousands of Brits feel that they are "too good" for; the immigrant workers do fill these spaces.

I'm glad my stupidity makes you feel sick, but stupidity is the reality of the situation...here anyway.

 

[musclebutt2]

Actually my distant relatives were legal immigrants. This thread is about "illegal aliens" which is a different status to most people. I see that you don't make a distinction.

Technically, there are no legal immigrants to a country that committed genocide with the sole purpose of stealing the land from American Indians. The only humans that are legal immigrants to this land are Amerids that migrated here during the last ice age. Anything after is a question of semantics and political fluff. Therefore, in the eyes of the original inhabitants of this continent, WE ARE ALL ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

 

[chico8]

Actually my distant relatives were legal immigrants. This thread is about "illegal aliens" which is a different status to most people. I see that you don't make a distinction.

If they came to the US prior to 1904, there was no such distinction. When my great grandfather who was born in Canada and his father who was born in England came to America in 1892, there was no border to speak of, nor any paperwork to be filled out.

Illegal immigration is a very new concept to the US. Most of those whose ancestors came here prior to 1904 and especially prior to WWII, pride themselves on their ancestors "legal" status when for all intents and purposes such status didn't exist.

 

[madame_zora]

I do understand the reality of the situation, however America and Mexico, as seems to be the discussion in this case, need to talk at governmental level to resolve the problem. Obvious statement, I know, but we too have a similar situation in Britain with Eastern Europeans coming over for fiscal reasons, rather than social (although the two are linked closely). Don't get me wrong, it's not a personal or nationalistic thing, but I do know personally alot of immigrants who have come over for work...and they work bloody hard! To be embarrassingly hoonest, they put alot of British workers to shame! The point I was trying to make is that each and every person I know in that situation has gone through the 'proper channels' and they enjoy all the benefits Britain has to offer. On the other side of the fence (if you pardon the expression) are the illegal immigrants, who have to dodge and dive to make a living and more often than not find themselves in trouble with the law and local people who object to them "taking their jobs". It is a very real situation that there are many thousands of jobs here that many thousands of Brits feel that they are "too good" for; the immigrant workers do fill these spaces.

I'm glad my stupidity makes you feel sick, but stupidity is the reality of the situation...here anyway.

We agree more than we disagree. The Mexicans here show up a lot of the American workers, many of the same situations exist in both places. I'm sure our differing opinions have more to do with our geographic locations than anything. This thread was talking about specifically the Mexican/American border being debated in congress right now, but if you were referring to your own country, I'm not informed enough to comment on that.

In America, there almost isn't a proper chanel for a Mexican to apply through. They make it so difficult and the wait so long that it's not worth it. That's what I'm calling stupid- people saying they should go through proper chanels when those really don't exist. It's easier to get in from almost anywhere else, sadly. I thought that was well known, isn't it?

 

[musclebutt2]

If they came to the US prior to 1904, there was no such distinction. When my great grandfather who was born in Canada and his father who was born in England came to America in 1892, there was no border to speak of, nor any paperwork to be filled out.

Illegal immigration is a very new concept to the US. Most of those whose ancestors came here prior to 1904 and especially prior to WWII, pride themselves on their ancestors "legal" status when for all intents and purposes such status didn't exist.

Actually, the 1882 Chinese Exclusion Act was the first American immigration law to specifically reject a certain race/nationality from entering the country. The Chinese have been in the United States for a very long time, even before the 1849 California Gold Rush. They have always been discriminated against, even in modern times, i.e. The Yellow Peril, Clinton fundraising fiasco, Lawrence Livermore Labs scandal, etc. I truly wonder if Asians in this country would ever be accepted as American instead of "Foreign."

re: madame z's mexican proper channels. It is mostly difficult for uneducated or unskilled laborers. If you have a degree or necessary skill I think there are more options available; hence the braindrain experienced by many poorer nations.

You know, this is really cool. It's also one of the main reasons I joined this site. The level of verbal intercourse and the intelligence of the posts on LPSG, as demonstrated by this thread, shows the general quality of its membership. It's also really cool to have an argument with someone and know what their jiggly bits look like via the gallery.

 

[B_spiker067]

Well hipocrisy is rampant.

As many as 1 in 10 Mexicans are in this country and this is good according to the Mexicans and their government.

On the other hand when other Central and South Americans on their way to the U.S. cross the southern Mexican border - well that is a bad thing. So bad that illegal aliens in Mexico are jailed and from time to time killed.