Capitalism is the engine driving man's betterment

[2322]

America is about the only country except for maybe China and now Brazil, where a person can move up the economic ladder thru hard work. Europe is calcified, almost a dead world. If you know of a place other than the above, where your dreams can be realized let us know that place.

OK. Here's the Index of Economic Freedom for 2008 as published by The Heritage Foundation and The Wall Street Journal. For a right-winger, this is like a pronunciation from the pope:

1. Hong Kong
2. Singapore
3. Ireland
4. Australia
5. United States

There you are. Four places that do it better. More importantly, Europe is very close... by this ranking.

The Cato Institute (another right-wing porn publisher) measures ranking by how close to laissez-faire capitalism a particular country approaches. By their latest ranking:

1. Hong Kong
2. Singapore
3. New Zealand
4. Switzerland
5. Canada
6. United Kingdom
7. United States
8. Estonia
9. Australia
10. Ireland

Now, if we measure economic opportunity by access, meaning how easy it is for business to get what it needs to flourish (access to physical resources, favorable laws, data, talented personnel), then a different ranking applies. This one is published by SRI Institute. That this study was unveiled at the Ronald Reagan Building and International Trade Center, should give you an idea on where SRI's political sympathies lie. If you're starting a business or want to grow one, the countries below will give you the best chance:

1. Hong Kong
2. Singapore
3. Denmark
4. Switzerland
5. The Netherlands
6. Finland
7. Germany
8. Sweden
9. United Kingdom
10. France
11. Spain
12. United States

So much ossified old Europe.

As you see Wyldgusechaz, the US does not have the greatest economic opportunities or resources, though in the grand scheme of things we still rank highly. Nor do we have the highest standard of living even when measured by per capita income or GDP. We used to have all these things, but not any more.

By per capita GDP (using 2006 statistics) as figured by the OECD. It must be noted that the UK has just surpassed the US on this list and this will be reflected in the next release. We will likely fall quite a bit given the relative plunge of the dollar versus other currencies. The OECD creates these statistics for the nations of the industrialized world (ie- wealthy, westernized countries):

1. Luxembourg
2. Norway
3. Iceland
4. Ireland
5. Denmark
6. Switzerland
7. United States
8. Sweden
9. The Netherlands
10. United Kingdom
11. Canada
12. Austria

The average American is becoming relatively poorer when compared to average people of some other countries. We used to head this list. Note that the list does not include microstate tax havens which the OECD considers blacklisted. They would, however, head the list if counted. These countries are Andorra, Lichtenstein, and Monaco. If these countries were counted, the US would sink to tenth by this survey.

In education the US ranks much worse. By international standards of reading, science, and mathematics, our students do not break into the top 10. In all cases, the United States ranks below the OECD average:

Reading:

1. Finland
2. Korea
3. Canada
4. Australia
5. New Zealand
6. Ireland
7. Sweden
8. The Netherlands
9. Belgium
10. Norway
11. Switzerland (they learn FIVE languages in grade school!)
12. Japan
13. Poland
14. France
15. United States

Mathematics:

1. Finland
2. Korea (South)
3. The Netherlands
4. Japan
5. Canada
6. Belgium
7. Switzerland
8. Australia
9. New Zealand
10. Czech Republic
11. Iceland
12. Denmark
13. France
14. Sweden
15. Austria
16. Germany
17. Ireland
18. Slovakia
19. Norway
20. Luxembourg
21. Poland
22. Hungary
23. Spain
24. United States

Science:

1. Finland
2. Japan
3. Korea
4. Australia
5. The Netherlands
6. Czech Republic
7. New Zealand
8. Canada
9. Switzerland
10. France
11. Belgium
12. Sweden
13. Ireland
14. Hungary
15. Germany
16. Poland
17. Slovakia
18. Iceland
19. United States

As you can see, we're not blinding anyone with science :wink:.

Let's also look and see who is graduating high school. Here are the high school graduation rates per country:

1. Norway
2. Germany
3. Korea
4. Ireland
5. Japan
6. Denmark
7. Finland
8. Switzerland
9. Russia
10. Czech Republic
11. Hungary
12. Iceland
13. Slovakia
14. Italy
15. France
16. Poland
17. Sweden
18. United States

Per capita (bachelor-level) college graduation rate:

1. Iceland
2. New Zealand
3. Finland
4. Australia
5. Norway
6. Denmark
7. Poland
8. The Netherlands
9. United Kingdom
10. Ireland
11. Sweden
12. Italy
13. Japan
14. United States

The US is slipping and slipping fast. This should give you (and bigbull29) a good example of why standard of living is not necessarily measured by how many things you have (or owe money on).

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

I am completely bewildered by all the negativity thrown at capitalism when it has made human life incredibly easy. I fucking don't get it. Some guys sit around with electricity and wires and 100 years later I have an Iphone! 150 years we washed clothes by beating them with rocks and now we just pop them in a washer. 100 years ago we needed coal or oil or wood to grill food now we hit a button and we get microwaved food in a flash. 40 years ago we did math on a slide rule.

A guy cuts off his arm and another guy sews it back on. We take a broken blood pump, stop it, fix it and put it back in and start it up again. 100 years ago our fun was skipping rocks on a lake now we have compUter simulAted ANYTHING. If you don't like your wife's boobs you can get her new ones.

We have been to the moon. As I said b/4 an average man can fly his own plane. There are guys sitting around trying to figure out ways to do something better and cheaper because they will get rich if they are successful.

The amazing productivity that capitalism has wrought has freed us from so many menial task we should jump for joy every day. We aren't constrained by gravity, by darkness, by distance, by weather, by altitude, by most illness, by water depth. Jacques Cousteau figures out the regulator and we can live under water. 100 years ago it would take a month to go from New York to London. Now its 8 hours.

A guy/gal can take a tiny knife and fix your eyesight by cutting them a bit. Some capitalist figured out the chain saw. Someone else figured out the snowmobile. Yankee ingenuity figured out the combine and thresher.

The shit that has been invented is freaking amazing. Mostly because someone thought he could make a dollar doing it. Snow skis went from wooden planks chained to your legs to carbon fiber composite with bindings that make skiing amazingly safe. Who the hell figured out the fun a jet ski could be? Another guy thought of the windsurfer and another the snowboard.

Viagra lets you fuck like a pornstud at age 60. Lipitor saves your heart. the list of what good man has done in the name of making money is so vast it boggles the mind.

I walk around just awed but what we have accomplished. the fact that a lot here don't see it is really sad to me.

 

[Drifterwood]

I don't like participating in threads like this because it brings the worst out in everybody. Insulting each other's nationalities gets us nowhere.

The only person being insulting is the OP with his ignorance. I can't see any Europeans insulting the US. I don't understand why you are so defensive and get so upset that people should show a preference for one thing over another.

To say that Europeans are just jealous is also ignorant and insulting, it may bolster the USA #1 mantra, but it just isn't true. Please look at Jason's post.

I like lots of things about the US and its people. I can personally choose to live anywhere in the world, I am actually in Hong Kong at the moment, but Europe remains my ultimate preference.

 

[deleted15807]

I agree with that, but I''m not the average American. Although Europeans are less materialistic than Americans are overall, many of them also equate lots of money with happiness. So, does the majority of the world. This is nothing unique to the US.

And that's supposed to be a good thing? Americans are in debt up to their eyeballs pursing big houses, big cars and big dreams and what did it get them? Number 23.

How long can the US have a negative savings rate before disaster hits?

U.S. savings rate hits lowest level since 1933
Consumers depleting savings to buy cars, other big-ticket items

U.S. savings rate hits lowest level since 1933 - Stocks & economy - MSNBC.com

HOW THE NATIONS RANKED ON HAPPINESS
1st - Denmark
2nd - Switzerland
3rd - Austria
4th - Iceland
5th - The Bahamas
23rd - USA
41st - UK
90th - Japan
178th - Burundi

BBC NEWS | Health | Denmark 'happiest place on earth'

Why money doesn't buy happiness
BBC NEWS | Business | Why money doesn't buy happiness

 

[Drifterwood]

I walk around just awed but what we have accomplished. the fact that a lot here don't see it is really sad to me.

This is due to the nature of humankind, not wholly capitalism, though I admit it plays a part in our more recent history.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

OK. Here's the Index of Economic Freedom for 2008 as published by The Heritage Foundation and The Wall Street Journal. For a right-winger, this is like a pronunciation from the pope:

1. Hong Kong
2. Singapore
3. Ireland
4. Australia
5. United States

There you are. Four places that do it better. More importantly, Europe is very close... by this ranking.

The Cato Institute (another right-wing porn publisher) measures ranking by how close to laissez-faire capitalism a particular country approaches. By their latest ranking:

1. Hong Kong
2. Singapore
3. New Zealand
4. Switzerland
5. Canada
6. United Kingdom
7. United States
8. Estonia
9. Australia
10. Ireland

Now, if we measure economic opportunity by access, meaning how easy it is for business to get what it needs to flourish (access to physical resources, favorable laws, data, talented personnel), then a different ranking applies. This one is published by SRI Institute. That this study was unveiled at the Ronald Reagan Building and International Trade Center, should give you an idea on where SRI's political sympathies lie. If you're starting a business or want to grow one, the countries below will give you the best chance:

1. Hong Kong
2. Singapore
3. Denmark
4. Switzerland
5. The Netherlands
6. Finland
7. Germany
8. Sweden
9. United Kingdom
10. France
11. Spain
12. United States

So much ossified old Europe.

As you see Wyldgusechaz, the US does not have the greatest economic opportunities or resources, though in the grand scheme of things we still rank highly. Nor do we have the highest standard of living even when measured by per capita income or GDP. We used to have all these things, but not any more.

By per capita GDP (using 2006 statistics) as figured by the OECD. It must be noted that the UK has just surpassed the US on this list and this will be reflected in the next release. We will likely fall quite a bit given the relative plunge of the dollar versus other currencies. The OECD creates these statistics for the nations of the industrialized world (ie- wealthy, westernized countries):

1. Luxembourg
2. Norway
3. Iceland
4. Ireland
5. Denmark
6. Switzerland
7. United States
8. Sweden
9. The Netherlands
10. United Kingdom
11. Canada
12. Austria

The average American is becoming relatively poorer when compared to average people of some other countries. We used to head this list. Note that the list does not include microstate tax havens which the OECD considers blacklisted. They would, however, head the list if counted. These countries are Andorra, Lichtenstein, and Monaco. If these countries were counted, the US would sink to tenth by this survey.

In education the US ranks much worse. By international standards of reading, science, and mathematics, our students do not break into the top 10. In all cases, the United States ranks below the OECD average:

Reading:

1. Finland
2. Korea
3. Canada
4. Australia
5. New Zealand
6. Ireland
7. Sweden
8. The Netherlands
9. Belgium
10. Norway
11. Switzerland (they learn FIVE languages in grade school!)
12. Japan
13. Poland
14. France
15. United States

Mathematics:

1. Finland
2. Korea (South)
3. The Netherlands
4. Japan
5. Canada
6. Belgium
7. Switzerland
8. Australia
9. New Zealand
10. Czech Republic
11. Iceland
12. Denmark
13. France
14. Sweden
15. Austria
16. Germany
17. Ireland
18. Slovakia
19. Norway
20. Luxembourg
21. Poland
22. Hungary
23. Spain
24. United States

Science:

1. Finland
2. Japan
3. Korea
4. Australia
5. The Netherlands
6. Czech Republic
7. New Zealand
8. Canada
9. Switzerland
10. France
11. Belgium
12. Sweden
13. Ireland
14. Hungary
15. Germany
16. Poland
17. Slovakia
18. Iceland
19. United States

As you can see, we're not blinding anyone with science :wink:.

Let's also look and see who is graduating high school. Here are the high school graduation rates per country:

1. Norway
2. Germany
3. Korea
4. Ireland
5. Japan
6. Denmark
7. Finland
8. Switzerland
9. Russia
10. Czech Republic
11. Hungary
12. Iceland
13. Slovakia
14. Italy
15. France
16. Poland
17. Sweden
18. United States

Per capita (bachelor-level) college graduation rate:

1. Iceland
2. New Zealand
3. Finland
4. Australia
5. Norway
6. Denmark
7. Poland
8. The Netherlands
9. United Kingdom
10. Ireland
11. Sweden
12. Italy
13. Japan
14. United States

The US is slipping and slipping fast. This should give you (and bigbull29) a good example of why standard of living is not necessarily measured by how many things you have (or owe money on).

You pick a bunch of tiny little countries of which I bet you don't own anything produced there. And I excluded the UK and Ireland earlier. I know they are dong well. Trumpeting countries of 3-5 million people, with very homogenous populations is bogus. I don't give a shit. Lets compare apples to apples. Russia to America. Japan to America. Mexico to America. Brazil to America. India to America. France to America. Germany to America.

I consider Hong Kong and Singapore to be the Far East and to be more clear a bit like China. Hong Kong is capitalist central.

BTW if you think its so great those places get the hell out of America. Guys like you won't be missed.

PS Norway?? Norway has oil money and about 4 million people. Iceland has 300000 people. Get real. I just got back from 3 weeks in Italy and what i saw wasn't pretty. Everyone is unhappy over the Euro and their loss of disposable income. and they work like dogs.

 

[HazelGod]

BTW if you think its so great those places get the hell out of America. Guys like you won't be missed.

Ugh. This attitude is a despicable example of the most un-American mentality imaginable. The irony, however, seem lost on those most disposed to voicing it publicly.

 

[Drifterwood]

The competitiveness and intolerance is ugly.

 

[2322]

You pick a bunch of tiny little countries of which I bet you don't own anything produced there. And I excluded the UK and Ireland earlier. I know they are dong well. Trumpeting countries of 3-5 million people, with very homogenous populations is bogus. I don't give a shit. Lets compare apples to apples. Russia to America. Japan to America. Mexico to America. Brazil to America. India to America. France to America. Germany to America.

I consider Hong Kong and Singapore to be the Far East and to be more clear a bit like China. Hong Kong is capitalist central.

BTW if you think its so great those places get the hell out of America. Guys like you won't be missed.

PS Norway?? Norway has oil money and about 4 million people. Iceland has 300000 people. Get real. I just got back from 3 weeks in Italy and what i saw wasn't pretty. Everyone is unhappy over the Euro and their loss of disposable income. and they work like dogs.

I didn't pick the countries, the most influential capitalist think tanks in the world did.

Your world view is severely blinkered by American mythos if you think size equates with what is, best, or even, better. Simply dropping the UK or Ireland because you think they're doing well doesn't answer the question you yourself asked. France, Germany, Russia, and Japan are all in those statistics at various places if you had bothered to look at them.

If you're angry at discovering what you thought was true is not, then it is not fair to displace that anger on to me. I'm just the messenger. What is really important for your future is to understand what is taking place and why so you can anticipate and plan for the changes this new knowledge portends. It's nothing personal. It's only business. A good business person will appreciate that.

As to your friends in Italy.....

The International Labor Organization (ILO) reports that US workers are still the most productive in the world. The average American worker brings in far more wealth than a worker of any other nation (save for Norway which, as you noted, is skewed by its oil wealth). We also work longer hours. Your Italian friends may say they're working their asses off, but Americans work longer and more productively:

The ILO report, entitled “Key Indicators of the Labour Market (KILM), fifth Edition” indicates that the U.S. still leads the world by far in labour productivity per person employed in 2006 despite a rapid increase of productivity in East Asia where workers now produce twice as much as they did 10 years ago.

What’s more, the report also shows that the productivity gap between the US and most other developed economies continued to widen. The acceleration of productivity growth in the US has outpaced that of many other developed economies: With US$ 63,885 of value added per person employed in 2006, the United States was followed at a considerable distance by Ireland (US$ 55,986), Luxembourg (US$ 55,641), Belgium (US$ 55,235) and France (US$ 54,609).

However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States (US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08). -Key Indicators of the Labour Market (KILM), fifth Edition

Of course you can look at this and simply determine that American workers are grossly underpaid compared to their less productive counterparts abroad. They have a higher standard of living and work less! Nice deal if you can get it.

 

[2322]

Do you even live on planet earth? And what is " loan superpower"?

A country that borrows itself into – $9,431,490,850,795 worth of debt (like the US). :biggrin1:

 

[midlifebear]

Let's call a spade a spade; in this case Wyldgusechaz is living up to his addled avatar name. My, three whole weeks in Italy? What a world traveler he is. And he's an authority on Chomsky! But wouldn't that mean he'd need a native intelligence greater than that required of a 5th grade US public school student attempting to cobble simple comparison and contrast writing exercises? Chomsky's not as transparent as most folks believe. Wyldgusechaz is just off his meds again. Poor little guy. He is to be extended pity and a cautious amount of human charity. You're OK, Wyldgusechaz, but I think it's time to get the lithium levels in your bloodstream checked again.

Personally, as a practicing capitalist, I never began to accumulate monetary wealth (as opposed to the real wealth of recognizing the value of others, learning to love, etc.) until I actually did leave the United States of 'Mericuh. For those of us evil capitalists trying to turn coin, the USA has not exactly been the place to do it for the last 10 or 12 years. I speak from personal experience. My sucarsales in Spain, Canada, and even Argentina are doing much better than the sickly office I keep afloat in Nevada. I hate to do it, but when I return to the USA in late October I'll have to lay off my employees and close down operations. Currently, I've instructed them to come up with several business models they'd like to pursue. This is my sincere attempt to help keep them employed. Sadly, however, I can't even liquidate my USA business assets and use them to buy a small neighborhood bar they could run. Folks always drink during a recession or economic depression. It's not big money, but it's steady.

 

[The Dragon]

Not wanting to rub anyones noses in it or anything but I am able to make profits regardless of a bull or a bear market.

 

[cocktoberfest]

Capitalism failing? You could not even be on this website without capitalists...

This website exists because a government research program (the internet) was made public. This website probably runs on free open source software. The communication networks we use to access it are pseudo monopolies (anti-competitive, i.e. not purely capitalistic). Yes the servers and PCs are made by big business.

My point? A blend of both socialism and capitalism is what we live in. Education, health-care, public utility, they are not the result of pure capitalism, but elements of both.

I like the country we live in too. But I would like the blend of capitalism/socialism to lean a bit more towards socialism. Call me a moderate lefty.

 

[deleted15807]

Not wanting to rub anyones noses in it or anything but I am able to make profits regardless of a bull or a bear market.

Ahh we have a Ferengi in our midsts!!!

The Ferengi are a space-faring humanoidspecies native to the planetFerenginar. Ferengi civilization is built on the ideals of free enterprise, where all other goals are subjugated to the pursuit of profit. Greed, deceit, distrust, and opportunism are highly prized values among Ferengi and all were represented within the Rules.

Ferengi - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

 

[mattflanders]

Each culture defines "standard of living" a little differently, doesn't it? Most Americans don't think living in a rinky dink box house with no heat in the winter as high standard of living.

No heat in winter? Where did you live in Europe? Moldova? It must have been a dump.
I've only lived in three countries and those are Belgium, Canada and Turkey. And even in a relatively poor country like Turkey (comparable to Mexico) we had heat in winter, air conditioning in summer. In Belgium the woodburner and central heating are on till late May. And there's no need for air conditioning in summer. (I was only two when I lived in Canada so I don't really remember a lot about it.)
I agree houses are a lot smaller in Europe, but there's less space in Europe. But from what I've seen, the lots in the US are pretty small, especially in the suburbs. We usually have big gardens.
But still, there isn't more poverty in France or Italy or Spain than there is in some of the states in the US. There'll always be people who have less. There are rich and poorer countries in Europe just as there are rich and poorer states in the US.
Just think about it, where I live (Flanders, Belgium) over 80% own their "rinky dink box", most of which are of a very high standard. Almost 85% of the Spanish and the Slovenians own their house, etc.

 

[Drifterwood]

What a world traveler he is.

Very true MLB. I'm in my fourth country this month. This year I know I will be in at least two different countries and continents every month.

Fucking grockles.

 

[B_ScaredLittleBoy]

I hope I didn't read what I think I readed...

"The English don't have half as much as the average American?"

Maybe in terms of body mass that statement is true but otherwise it is typical 'America, the best god damn country in the world' bullshize.

 

[mattflanders]

Yeah, I know Scaredlittleboy. How can anyone think like that? I can't think of anything material I saw in America that we don't have in Europe.
He makes it sound like we all still live in huts.

 

[TurkeyWithaSunburn]

Yeah, I know Scaredlittleboy. How can anyone think like that? I can't think of anything material I saw in America that we don't have in Europe.
He makes it sound like we all still live in huts.

Wouldn't it be better if you did live in huts?:tongue: I mean capitalists could have a new market!! You WANT to like in a 2500sqft house by yourself right? Well hereeeee u go... all done up spiffy like right :tongue: <sarcasm> :wink:

Now pay me three times more than what it's worth :tongue:

 

[tripod]

I hope I didn't read what I think I readed...

"The English don't have half as much as the average American?"

Maybe in terms of body mass that statement is true but otherwise it is typical 'America, the best god damn country in the world' bullshize.

I highly agree!!

***********

There ain't one fucking person in the U.K. who has less than any American has. They have absolutely everything that they need.

THEY ACTUALLY HAVE MORE THAN AMERICANS DO...

THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR MEDICAL CARE LIKE WE DO.

WE IN THE U.S. ARE HANGING BY A GODDAMMN STRING. MOST OF US ARE ONE SERIOUS ILLNESS AWAY FROM BANKRUPTCY.

You right wingers can shove capitalism up your ass, I want free health care and to be honest, I am sick of the whole insurance business in this country. They have been robbing us blind for years.