Infidelity

[Drifterwood]

What is the reason? What about personal responsibility, and personal ethics? This justification does not mesh with my ethics. Does it mesh with anyone else's?

It is the nature of falling in love - love is blind - how very true that is.

Not only that, but we impose our expectations unquestioningly. We don't ask the questions but we think we know the answer. I have been on both sides of this and it always seems to lead to disappointment.

 

[AlteredEgo]

It is the nature of falling in love - love is blind - how very true that is.

Not only that, but we impose our expectations unquestioningly. We don't ask the questions but we think we know the answer. I have been on both sides of this and it always seems to lead to disappointment.

Thank you for responding. What questions do you think need asking? I'm unclear what you're talking about. Also, at what stage? What questions need asking, and when?

 

[Drifterwood]

Thank you for responding. What questions do you think need asking? I'm unclear what you're talking about. Also, at what stage? What questions need asking, and when?

I think we have an expectation on physical and emotional values, that they will be shared and as Ms.T would say, that they are "normal". I think that a lot of us presume that we are normal, but the fact is that we just haven't really discovered our natures - and how can we without experience?

Some people rationalise their "infidelity" because the needs that they have and they expected to be met, are not, and they look for it elsewhere. Others have learnt that fidelity doesn't mean to them what it is supposed to, that their fidelity is perhaps in the heart and that they can dissassociate the body from the heart. A lot though don't wish the emotional challenge that learning this means.

You can make commitments in all good faith, but they don't mean much if you don't know yourself.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

Please tell me i get some award or something for reading this entire thread.

There is a moral relativity in all of us. Based on if we are religious, how we are raised, how we were treated, maybe we were the one who went off with another, maybe we were hurt by our spouse doing that to us. There is too many flavors of experience here to have one answer.

I've been tempted, but i've not truly acted on it to have sex with another man.

Infidelity also has a different meaning to everyone. Some women consider Playboy or porn infidelity. I don't, thus they would presume my husband and i are unfaithful under their rules. Some don't consider it infidility if they didnt have sex. Other might not think its true infidelity if they didnt get emotionally involved with the other person. I've known people who think its cheating if they masturbate in the marriage.

We truly can't have an absolute answer that satifies everyone on this issue. The truth is, most cheaters wouldn't like to be cheated on. Most people very defensive in this thread have open relationships or were a part of an affair situation. Open relationships, most agree here, are excluded from this fidelity argument because there is an agreement between both parties about it.

Most people crave monogamy and hope that they will always be happy with the person they've chosen. The divorce rate is ridiculously high, not because humans arent monogomous creatures, its because most people get married for the wrong reasons to the wrong person and one or both parties quit caring for the other person in a healthy way.

Some people cheat for physical reasons and the exhiliration that promotes, others need the psychological nuturing and intimacy they arent getting from their partner.

I, personally, choose to be monogomous because thats the dream i've always had for my life. But if you are in an open relationship im not going to tell you what you are doing is wrong based on my choice for my marriage.

The 2 things i've seen in this thread where everyone agrees is:

1) No one is promoting that its good to deceive a partner in order to have a relationship with more than one person.

2) No one so far says that if you are in a consensual open relationship that you are a cheater.

It's relative to what your partner thinks. By partner i don't mean someone you've had a few dates with.

 

[AlteredEgo]

I think we have an expectation on physical and emotional values, that they will be shared and as Ms.T would say, that they are "normal". I think that a lot of us presume that we are normal, but the fact is that we just haven't really discovered our natures - and how can we without experience?

Some people rationalise their "infidelity" because the needs that they have and they expected to be met, are not, and they look for it elsewhere. Others have learnt that fidelity doesn't mean to them what it is supposed to, that their fidelity is perhaps in the heart and that they can dissassociate the body from the heart. A lot though don't wish the emotional challenge that learning this means.

You can make commitments in all good faith, but they don't mean much if you don't know yourself.

That's not my particular problem. I'm a big believer in LOTS of long, deep talks about what we want from each other, from our lives, from our hard work, from the world, and frequent status updates. I do think, however, that problems can arise if one party is not honest with the other (or with themselves) during these types of discussions. I guess that does come full-circle back to your point about knowing oneself. Hmm.

 

[AlteredEgo]

We truly can't have an absolute answer that satifies everyone on this issue. The truth is, most cheaters wouldn't like to be cheated on. Most people very defensive in this thread have open relationships or were a part of an affair situation. Open relationships, most agree here, are excluded from this fidelity argument because there is an agreement between both parties about it.

I think you spent so much time reading the whole thread that you forgot the original post. It's not so much a question of whether or not infidelity is right or wrong, and it isn't actually a question of defining infidelity either. The question is would you cheat, why would you cheat, and if you are the unfaithful party, how do you justify your behavior?

Personally, i'm particularly interesed in the last two questions. What leads to cheating? What do you tell yourself to "make it right" in your mind when you stray?

For what it's worth, people in open relationships ARE NOT exempt from this discussion. Their relationships have boundaries too. I believe we do have a universally acceptable definition of infidelity: It is the violation of the mutually aggreed-upon terms and conditions between those involved in a long-term relationship. It's a crossing of boundaries. Those terms can vary from relationship to relationship, but this definition really does not.

 

[Drifterwood]

How do you know your boundaries AE?

How do you really know your priorities?

How do you deal with the fact these may well change over time and in different circumstances?

Can you list your priorities and give them a rating then see if they match your partner's? What do you do if they don't match and you're still crazy about the person? Give it a go and hope?

The last time that I was in an LTR and I decided to have sex with other people again, it was because I felt suffocated in the box she was putting me in. I suppose it was my way of reasserting my independence and my own non boundaries.

 

[Blktopbuttlvr]

I have a serious question... do you think infidelity or cheating whatever you want to call it is a learned behavior? I never told anyone this before but my Dad was a womanizer, my brothers both were, me I've done some things that I'm not proud of but I find it easier to be single. Now I long for a meaningful relationship but I don't know if I could ever be faithful.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

I think you spent so much time reading the whole thread that you forgot the original post. It's not so much a question of whether or not infidelity is right or wrong, and it isn't actually a question of defining infidelity either. The question is would you cheat, why would you cheat, and if you are the unfaithful party, how do you justify your behavior?

Personally, i'm particularly interesed in the last two questions. What leads to cheating? What do you tell yourself to "make it right" in your mind when you stray?

For what it's worth, people in open relationships ARE NOT exempt from this discussion. Their relationships have boundaries too. I believe we do have a universally acceptable definition of infidelity: It is the violation of the mutually aggreed-upon terms and conditions between those involved in a long-term relationship. It's a crossing of boundaries. Those terms can vary from relationship to relationship, but this definition really does not.

i was responding to the last posts i recalled in the pages of this thread. by page 15 the original questions were forgotten, sorry.

 

[griplock22]

...

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Yet unless you articulate that you no longer feel there is a valid contract, you are still obligated to the contract yourself. Why debase yourself? Why be as low as the one who is wronging you?

Said like one without enough experience to know.
Its simply not so simple as that... ITs not about not wanting her anymore.

I desperately wanted my ex-wife... lover her, cherished her... I just could not stand the abuse she doled out.
I had small children, she was a drunk... In this country the man almost never gets custody if the wife contests for it... there is the financial devastation of divorce... my kid's college finds and my retirement account vanished down a black hole of ridiculously vindictive litigation.

Pal... there are a LOT of reasons why folks would elect to have an affair rather than put everyone in two families thru the trauma of divorce.

Especially if the primary area of spousal failure is in the bed... if in most other ways she is holding her end up...

Real Monogamists have far more to lose... a whole life invested in each other in every sense.

Its simply wrong to judge infidelity with a single yardstick.

This analogy is nowhere near valid. However, I don't simply stop paying my contractor. I have to actually fire them as well as stop payments.

of course its valid... the minute the contract is breached by the other party, YOUR actions can not constitute breach.

The point was to demonstrate the silliness of suggesting that you have to keep your end of a contract someone else has broken.

The remedy for marriage would be to simply put in writing, like most real contracts, the remedies for breach.

If she refuses to cleave...it might spell out, you have the right to seek relief elsewhere... and yet all other aspects of the contract remain in force....
That's how it USED to be... before women took control over society and imposed their standard as the only acceptable one.

I know of Jewish guys whose wive's spousal contracts actually stipulate that very thing.

I'm not talking about whether or not your wife has the right to feel outrage. I'm talking about whether or not cheating on her is ethical or moral.

Again... shooting people is unethical... shooting someone in self defense is still NOT ethical... but it is understandable. Forgivable.

The difference is this... if I am morally bankrupted by doing the one thing that enables me to suffer a bad marriage.... then I am made the villian, and my spouse the victim...
Under these circumstances, there is no saving the marriage... staying together results in one forever being the guilty party, the other forever being the victim.... resentment is the only possible result.

However... if my actions are regrettable, but understandable ( as in murder for self defense) then I am not morally bankrupted in the marriage... my spouse recognizes and accepts and regrets their questionable actions... I recognize and accept and regret my own questionable actions...
And we can move forward as equals... equally responsible for our conduct.

The marriage can be saved...

I am sorry... but moral absolutism assumes that one is morally perfect... and no one is.

Of the two reactions to infidelity outlined above...
the former is condemning, the latter is compassionate and understanding...
By every meaningful measure of morality and ethics... the latter perspective is the more moral and ethically sound.

I would argue that it is neither ethical nor moral to cheat on her.

So what? you totally ignore HER immorality and lack of ethics. ITS A FACTOR.

If I beat a guy up in a barfight... guess what the first question the cops ask is? " who started it?"
They ask because the answer determines whether I am acting unethically or not.
It has nothing to do with whether hitting other people is right or not. Even in defending myself... I am doing something I know is not right.
But I can not be condemned for it.
In letting me off the hook, the law is NOT saying that fighting is okay. Its NOT an endorsement of fisticuffs.


I ask the same question... Who started it? If your wife is a loving sweet and supportive person who is doing her best to make the marriage work... and your fucking some chippy on the side for the fun or machismo of it...
Then YOU started it, you're the unethical instigator.

If your wife makes your home life into emotional torture and refuses you the aspects of marriage that you bargained for... that she offered initially... then SHE started it... she is the unethcial instigator.

Doesn't seem so romantic to me. Romance to me is telling me there is a problem, what the problem is, and working together to get back on track.

That's not romantic... that's the hard work of monogamy that many people can't manage to do. But I would far rather do the hard work, than toss my marriage just because my wife screwed another guy.

 

[DC_DEEP]

It seems to me that there are far more people IN relationships who seem to get the complex ideas in this thread than not. Sad. Maybe it explains a lot.
It angers me when people not in successful relationships judge those of us who are for not living our relationships according to their rules.

There is nothing fun about being alone on your moral high horse (at least as far as I can see there isn't).

That's an interesting pitch, Lex. It's interesting that the "morality trumpets" are not in a happy, healthy relationship at this time. After our 7 years together, my partner and I are still madly in love. I know how strong your relationship is with your husbear.

<...>
Of course we're in control of our urges, unless any of you are sex addicts, and I haven't heard anyone fess up to that. Monogamy is not difficult. People like to believe that it is because they want to keep that fantasy going that other people desire them. And they don't want to work on making things interesting with the partner that they have.

Again, I am in total control of my urges. That does not mean that I have to be sexually exclusive with one person.

Cheating and open relationships are a copout.

Explain, please.

When you love someone deeply, a fuck is not just a fuck. If you love someone that deeply, you don't need other people. Open relationships are for people who desire something that their mate can't provide. It's not about love. It's about lust and being unable to control our primal urges as the other poster said.

Again, please explain what you mean by "when you love someone that deeply, you don't need other people." You expand upon your own statement when you say, "Open relationships are for people who desire something that their mate can't provide," but you don't explain why you think that's a bad thing. Think of this: if one or both parties in a couple is sterile, but both want children, is it immoral for them to adopt? To go elsewhere to get something desired, that the partner cannot provide?

Well, that's unfortunate that you need other people when you're in love.

Well, that's just a plain idiotic statement.

I was reading a post earlier by a woman who's a swinger. Things started off wonderful and now it's turned into somewhat of a nightmare. It's heartbreaking and I feel for her.

Then perhaps she should not have done it. What about the people for whom it does not become a nightmare?

Yes, that is your opinion. When I'm with a man, I don't want him having sex with other women. Period.

That's fine, as long as he also agrees. But why do you insist that your moral imperatives should be binding upon anyone who doesn't agree with you? I have friends whose moral imperative is that eating any animal flesh is immoral. Does that mean that you are immoral if you have meat with your dinner?

That's true. And you should be enough for him and he for you.

Why? Enough, how? Sexually only? In all aspects of life?

I knew a woman, when I was in the Marine Corps, who felt that when she was in a relationship, each one should be the other's entire universe. Once she was a "couple" with a man, she didn't feel that either of them had any need for any other people - sexually, or even as friends. It was not a healthy relationship.

 

[AlteredEgo]

How do you know your boundaries AE?

How do you really know your priorities?

How do you deal with the fact these may well change over time and in different circumstances?

Experience! I'm young but I do live life to the fullest. Of course a relationship is a living, breathing thing. The needs and wants of those involved are going to evolve. Fortunately, the people in the relationship will still have mouths and brains!:tongue: Have I wanted things to be different inside a relationship? Have I realized I wanted to redefine my boundaries, or clarify his expectations as time marches on? I have. And when that happens, I open my mouth and say something. It's not always a fun conversation, but I think we both feel better after.

Can you list your priorities and give them a rating then see if they match your partner's? What do you do if they don't match and you're still crazy about the person? Give it a go and hope?

Can and have. Perhaps not so much a rating as an order of importance. And this is a process that begins when I first become interested in exclusivity. It doesn't make sense to get involved with someone with whom you aren't compatible. And if you start out on the same page, and end up in different books you can compromise. In fact, compromise is the only choice you have together. All other choices involve being separate whether you both know it or not.

The last time that I was in an LTR and I decided to have sex with other people again, it was because I felt suffocated in the box she was putting me in. I suppose it was my way of reasserting my independence and my own non boundaries.

My question is: did you ever have a calm discussion of your feelings? Did anyone but you know that you were being suffocated in a box? Did you find out why anyone wanted to put you in a box in the first place?

Its simply not so simple as that... ITs not about not wanting her anymore.

Its simply wrong to judge infidelity with a single yardstick.

I'm questioning you, and challenging your justifications. It's helping my gain understanding. On the other hand, if it is making you feel judged, I will stop. I'm not here to judge you or punish you, and don't want to cause you or anyone else in this thread pain.

of course its valid... the minute the contract is breached by the other party, YOUR actions can not constitute breach.

No, it's kind of a silly comparison. And even if it were not, as I said you don't just drop your end in either contract. You speak up. You put the trouble on the table. Can cheating ever be justified? I don't know. Maybe. But then again maybe not.

I see what you write, but I just keep coming back to my point (which I think you keep misinterpreting). You keep going back to being able to do whatever you want because she is not living up to your expectations. You think I am painting her as a victim and you as a villain. I'm painting you both as villains! I'm asking you why two villains are better than one. In my question it doesn't matter if shes the devil incarnate. My question is about you alone. My question does not ask if you have to honor her. it asks if you have to honor yourself. Is your answer that you are honoring yourself and I just don't understand?

That's how it USED to be... before women took control over society and imposed their standard as the only acceptable one.

This is some extraneous misogynistic bullshit. If women were in control of society we'd make as much money as men when we do the same jobs, we wouldn't be harassed on the internet, or on the streets, emergency contraception would be readily available, and abortion wouldn't be in constant jeopardy. And anyway, aren't you saying that your standard is the only acceptable one?

The difference is this... if I am morally bankrupted by doing the one thing that enables me to suffer a bad marriage.... then I am made the villian, and my spouse the victim...
Under these circumstances, there is no saving the marriage... staying together results in one forever being the guilty party, the other forever being the victim.... resentment is the only possible result.

So then by this logic, since you are the original victim, and she is the original villain, wasn't the marriage unsalvageable then?

However... if my actions are regrettable, but understandable ( as in murder for self defense) then I am not morally bankrupted in the marriage... my spouse recognizes and accepts and regrets their questionable actions... I recognize and accept and regret my own questionable actions...
And we can move forward as equals... equally responsible for our conduct.

The marriage can be saved...

Okay. I see what you are saying. I don't know if your spouse does necessarily see her own fault in your relationship. Question: If she doesn't ever recognize, accept, and regret her actions, do you gain equality? Do you confront her with her part so that you can be equal in this way?

I am sorry... but moral absolutism assumes that one is morally perfect... and no one is.

Listen: don't you dare quote me and talk about moral absolutism in the same breath. Do I look like Ms. Teacher to you?

So what? you totally ignore HER immorality and lack of ethics. ITS A FACTOR.

No! You are completely missing my point! My point is that it's not a factor because you cannot control her actions, but you can ALWAYS control yours. Always. You are the master of yourself. And THAT is the perspective from which I am asking my questions, but I cannot seem to get you to answer them from that perspective, which I suppose in and of itself answers my questions.

 

[Drifterwood]

My question is: did you ever have a calm discussion of your feelings? Did anyone but you know that you were being suffocated in a box? Did you find out why anyone wanted to put you in a box in the first place?

To be honest, no. My memory may be a bit off, but I think I did that skirting around the issue to guage what was going on. But in truth the compromises were too great. She liked to know where everything was in her life and keep it there. I don't mind doing that when organising my household affairs and to a degree business, but I don't see people and relationships like that.

I once discussed honesty with Madame Z. She wanted total honesty from a partner. I don't want that either way, it is complete exposure, complete access. It seems a fair idea, but where do you go from there? What has happened to your individuality? I did think at the time that her wish was unreasonable. But perhaps it isn't, perhaps it is my issue.

It's still a good question, how much privacy do you need to keep in a relationship?

 

[HazelGod]

I once discussed honesty with Madame Z. She wanted total honesty from a partner. I don't want that either way, it is complete exposure, complete access. It seems a fair idea, but where do you go from there? What has happened to your individuality? I did think at the time that her wish was unreasonable. But perhaps it isn't, perhaps it is my issue.

It's still a good question, how much privacy do you need to keep in a relationship?

Interesting idea. In my thinking, honesty and privacy aren't mutually exclusive. Being honest doesn't mean sacrificing your sense of self. If part of your honesty from the outset is that you have a need to maintain private space in your life, that's a fair shake. That's the only way I feel my relationship with my wife has succeeded where every other one before failed. She not only understands and respects this boundary...she has a similar nature of her own.

So while we do not lie to one another, there are aspects of both our lives to which the other is not privy.

 

[Hellboy0]

Interesting idea. In my thinking, honesty and privacy aren't mutually exclusive. Being honest doesn't mean sacrificing your sense of self. If part of your honesty from the outset is that you have a need to maintain private space in your life, that's a fair shake. That's the only way I feel my relationship with my wife has succeeded where every other one before failed. She not only understands and respects this boundary...she has a similar nature of her own.

So while we do not lie to one another, there are aspects of both our lives to which the other is not privy.

Agreed, HG. My partner and I are pretty independent men and discovered early on that we needed our time and our 'secrets'. I don't delve and neither does he.

This doesn't mean we're looking to step out on our relationship. The priority is that our time together is just that: Ours. If I'm on my own, that's MY time and to be spent as I see fit. Which is usually in a very boring way, but occasionally with friends, new and old. What I do during that time is my responsibility.

Honesty does not mean telling your partner everything. That's insecurity.

 

[HyperHulk]

Honesty does not mean telling your partner everything. That's insecurity.

Ok, I'm back for more abuse.:wink:

Hellboy, I agree with you but I believe that honesty, in regards to this discussion, is contextual. In that, if you have an open relationship and as a condition of that open relationship is that you won't share details all the time, but you both know that each other can play, that's still be honest. My issue has been where both partners tell each other that they will only be monogamous and then a partner cheats and conceals that. That seems like a fundamental betrayal.

Now I know by writing this, some (looking at you phil and drifter) are going to jump down my throat and tell me I'm being judgmental and on a high horse. Although I really can't understand that--a lie is a lie is a lie. The only issue is whether the lie or betrayal can be justified. For example, if you steal bread because you are starving, you've committed theft, but yet you needed to live.

My issue with the lying is that you have denied your partner the choice of how they want to deal with someone who betrayed them. If we truly love someone, is that an act of love?

I'm just asking these questions. Like someone else wrote, by discussing these issues, I get to appreciate other world views. It's interesting to me how people rationalize things that I can't see from my perspective.

 

[Hellboy0]

Ok, I'm back for more abuse.:wink:

Hellboy, I agree with you but I believe that honesty, in regards to this discussion, is contextual. In that, if you have an open relationship and as a condition of that open relationship is that you won't share details all the time, but you both know that each other can play, that's still be honest. My issue has been where both partners tell each other that they will only be monogamous and then a partner cheats and conceals that. That seems like a fundamental betrayal.

Now I know by writing this, some (looking at you phil and drifter) are going to jump down my throat and tell me I'm being judgmental and on a high horse. Although I really can't understand that--a lie is a lie is a lie. The only issue is whether the lie or betrayal can be justified. For example, if you steal bread because you are starving, you've committed theft, but yet you needed to live.

My issue with the lying is that you have denied your partner the choice of how they want to deal with someone who betrayed them. If we truly love someone, is that an act of love?

I'm just asking these questions. Like someone else wrote, by discussing these issues, I get to appreciate other world views. It's interesting to me how people rationalize things that I can't see from my perspective.

I think your post was very fair and very fairly worded, HyperHulk. I do get your points and yes, if the relationship is set up as 'Monogamous' then there is a bit of a dilemma here. However, things do 'appen, and in those cases, I'm not sure telling your partner about it, after the fact, is going to be a good thing. For some relationships, the partners decide on the 'don't ask-don't tell' which works well, too. I don't have all of the answers, only for what works for me. But I try not to place my decisions into anyone else's situation. They are all soooo different.

I'm also trying to stick to the original thread which asked if persons would go outside the relationship, not what head trips need to be dealt with along the way. Now THATS gonna be a doozy of a thread and I'll leave it well alone. It'll end in tears, folks, cuz of the almost right-wing religious fervor that'll get presented.

However, HyperHulk is right in that we should all be able to express our opinions in a logical way, even if we don't agree, and not get personally attacked. I hope I haven't done so...maybe my passion gets in the way of my writing skills.

 

[Drifterwood]

Ok, I'm back for more abuse.:wink:.

Simple.

I put friendship above sexual acts. Betraying my friendship would hurt me more than having a quick shag for whatever reason.

Don't get me wrong - good satisfying sex is extremely important in a relationship, I just don't have it's exclusivity as an acid test of the strength of the relationship.

Secondly, take the 10% free space that some of us want in our relationships, why shouldn't this be sexual, if you take into account my first point?

 

[HyperHulk]

However, things do 'appen, and in those cases, I'm not sure telling your partner about it, after the fact, is going to be a good thing.

Thanks for that Hellboy. I know what you are saying here. I have strong views on how I feel about cheating, because my only relationships are monogamous. But one of my fears is that because I feel so strongly, if my partner cheats, they might be afraid to tell me because I might leave them. I've wrestled with this and when I talk with a partner about these issues, I say--look, I know we have agreed on this but the reality is, something might happen and if so, let's talk with one another and agree that we will talk it through and process it first before making any big decisions. My goal is to build a level of trust and honesty regarding this. I know too many people who have become HIV poz because their partners cheated and didn't say anything about it. I also made the vow with myself that if, for some reason I ever did cheat, I would tell my partner before we had sex again. Cheating is one thing, giving my partner a std, is for me, unforgiveable. So far, I've been either lucky or whatever that I haven't had anything challenge me enough that I've wanted to cheat.

I think people should have whatever type of relationship they want as long as they are on the same page about it and don't harm each other directly or indirectly.