Infidelity

[HyperHulk]

Simple.

I put friendship above sexual acts. Betraying my friendship would hurt me more than having a quick shag for whatever reason.

Don't get me wrong - good satisfying sex is extremely important in a relationship, I just don't have it's exclusivity as an acid test of the strength of the relationship.

Secondly, take the 10% free space that some of us want in our relationships, why shouldn't this be sexual, if you take into account my first point?

If this works for you, what's the issue? I could only imagine the issue being if your partner thought you both were completely faithful and you were not. However if you and your partner talked about having a need to be with others sexually and there wasn't a problem, then why not? I don't see any problems with open relationships because they are negotiated. It's the ones that have deception that I'm not interested in.

 

[Hellboy0]

Thanks for that Hellboy. I know what you are saying here. I have strong views on how I feel about cheating, because my only relationships are monogamous. But one of my fears is that because I feel so strongly, if my partner cheats, they might be afraid to tell me because I might leave them. I've wrestled with this and when I talk with a partner about these issues, I say--look, I know we have agreed on this but the reality is, something might happen and if so, let's talk with one another and agree that we will talk it through and process it first before making any big decisions. My goal is to build a level of trust and honesty regarding this. I know too many people who have become HIV poz because their partners cheated and didn't say anything about it. I also made the vow with myself that if, for some reason I ever did cheat, I would tell my partner before we had sex again. Cheating is one thing, giving my partner a std, is for me, unforgiveable. So far, I've been either lucky or whatever that I haven't had anything challenge me enough that I've wanted to cheat.

I think people should have whatever type of relationship they want as long as they are on the same page about it and don't harm each other directly or indirectly.

I do understand and agree with you in part, especially regarding the health issues.

The LTR I had before this one was ended because of a pretty innocent pash (by me) that I thought must have meant I was NOT in love with my partner of the time, and because of my own set of rules, meant it had to end.

What a load of crap? In retrospect, there were a number of other solutions to have followed rather than the so-called moral high road I adhered to at the time. So you can understand a bit more my reluctance to place too high of an importance on infidelity in a relationship when it relates to sex. My problem is when one member of a partnership forms a strong emotional as well as sexual attachment to another individual. THAT is infidelity in my book, and much more dangerous than some play time that a couple adults might have decided to enjoy.

 

[AlteredEgo]

But perhaps it isn't, perhaps it is my issue.

It's still a good question, how much privacy do you need to keep in a relationship?

The better question for you to ask is how much privacy YOU need in a relationship.

The only man who ever wanted a lot of privacy in our relationship was really just interested in keeping me from finding out how much pussy he was getting on the outside. And there was even one with a deep emotional connection- she's the only one I ever suspected, and the one he worked hardest to keep away from me. We had lot's of privacy. Tons. And sure, that was my only enduring relationship, but I never liked the extra privacy. It was a compromise I made.

You worry about individuality in a relationship where there is total honesty? That's hard for me to understand. It's not like you are being asked to sacrifice who you are. You are being asked to share that person. There's a big difference. Now, if you are being asked to share yourself, but the intention is to find out who you really are so you can be molded into someone else that's a separate issue. And if who you are is someone who doesn't really want to have only one sexual partner for life, and she wants to make you into a person who does want that, then the real issue isn't one of insufficient privacy, or even one person trying to change the other. The problem is you don't want the same relationship. This is an incompatibility which is unfixable unless one of you yields completely.

It's something that should come up in the beginning, before either of you becomes involved too deeply. This is one of many things I get settled while I'm still deciding how much I like a man. You asked me if I know what I want- if I have priorities, and if I can assign value to them. Can you? It might save you so much heartbreak if you can even line up just a few things. I know this post is a bit off-topic, and I apologize.

Secondly, take the 10% free space that some of us want in our relationships, why shouldn't this be sexual, if you take into account my first point?

There is absolutely no reason why that 10% can't be sexual. But there is absolutely no reason not to discuss this with a potential partner near the beginning of your relationship. If you don't agree about this, then you aren't a match. What you want sounds a lot like the kind of relationship a few of my friends have. I know people who agree to have occasional sexual partners without discussion. They keep it to themselves. It's not cheating, because it's agreed to beforehand. Usually, with the people I know, it's that one wants outside sex, and the other doesn't mind, but also doesn't want to know. There must be plenty of men and women out there who want exactly the same thing.

So my questions are, do you think you should discuss this with someone you love, or do you also kind of need the extra sex to be a secret you lie about? Is that part of it for you? Is it not enough to keep it a secret? Does there also have to be a lie?

Thank you so much for being so open here, Drifterwood! I know it can't be easy.

 

[snoozan]

Interesting idea. In my thinking, honesty and privacy aren't mutually exclusive. Being honest doesn't mean sacrificing your sense of self. If part of your honesty from the outset is that you have a need to maintain private space in your life, that's a fair shake. That's the only way I feel my relationship with my wife has succeeded where every other one before failed. She not only understands and respects this boundary...she has a similar nature of her own.

I agree with this completely. For me it's not just privacy, but the need and willingness to have and let your partner have a life separate from your relationship. I don't want or ask my husband to share evert interest, every thought, and every aspect of his psyche, and I don't want it. I require the same.

I also agree that honesty and privacy are not mutually exclusive. Doing something that I've discussed or gleaned from my husband that he would see as betrayal is dishonest. Omitting to tell him things that have a direct effect on him or our relationship is dishonest. Making things up when asked questions is dishonest. Wanting to keep some thoughts and experiences private is different. For example, my husband knows I participate on LPSG and he knows what kind of a site this is. He has a pretty good idea of what goes on here. That's fine. What I'm not comfortable with is the idea that he would log on to my account and read all my posts and PMs. It's not because I feel I have something to hide-- I haven't broken any of the rules in our marriage, but I'd feel somewhat invaded if he chose to make sure that I haven't. It would be the same thing if he insisted on knowing what I say and do when I'm out with my girlfriends. In kind, I have no desire to read all of his posts on the forums he participates in or read his email with his friends. We all need to escape and vent from all of our relationships, and this is privacy, not dishonesty. In my relationship, sexual monogamy isn't part of this privacy. In others' relationships, it is. Again, I think it makes sense to discuss what each person considers privacy versus dishonesty because that definition is different for everyone.

I have a friend with whom our main conflict is that she chooses in every relationship she's in to become subsumed by the relationship and the person she's in it with. Through 3 relationships, her identity has been very different and it goes further than just being influenced by that person. She defers her life and all of her decisions and personality to that person. I don't understand it and I don't trust it. But that's really another topic.

Secondly, take the 10% free space that some of us want in our relationships, why shouldn't this be sexual, if you take into account my first point?

I think that's fine, however, if you're with someone with whom you suspect or know sexual or emotional monogamy would be an issue (and it is for most people), you have a responsibility to discuss that before engaging in that behavior. You do have to make some agreements on what privacy is and what it includes in your relationships because, as I said, it's different for every person. There are many couples for whom there exists an explicit or implicit "don't ask, don't tell" policy on sexual liasons. In those cases, it falls into privacy over dishonesty.

 

[Lex]

Interesting idea. In my thinking, honesty and privacy aren't mutually exclusive. Being honest doesn't mean sacrificing your sense of self. If part of your honesty from the outset is that you have a need to maintain private space in your life, that's a fair shake. That's the only way I feel my relationship with my wife has succeeded where every other one before failed. She not only understands and respects this boundary...she has a similar nature of her own.

So while we do not lie to one another, there are aspects of both our lives to which the other is not privy.

The better question for you to ask is how much privacy YOU need in a relationship.
...

You worry about individuality in a relationship where there is total honesty? That's hard for me to understand. It's not like you are being asked to sacrifice who you are. You are being asked to share that person. There's a big difference. Now, if you are being asked to share yourself, but the intention is to find out who you really are so you can be molded into someone else that's a separate issue. And if who you are is someone who doesn't really want to have only one sexual partner for life, and she wants to make you into a person who does want that, then the real issue isn't one of insufficient privacy, or even one person trying to change the other. The problem is you don't want the same relationship. This is an incompatibility which is unfixable unless one of you yields completely.

It's something that should come up in the beginning, before either of you becomes involved too deeply. This is one of many things I get settled while I'm still deciding how much I like a man. ...

I agree with this completely. For me it's not just privacy, but the need and willingness to have and let your partner have a life separate from your relationship. I don't want or ask my husband to share evert interest, every thought, and every aspect of his psyche, and I don't want it. I require the same.

I also agree that honesty and privacy are not mutually exclusive. Doing something that I've discussed or gleaned from my husband that he would see as betrayal is dishonest. Omitting to tell him things that have a direct effect on him or our relationship is dishonest. Making things up when asked questions is dishonest. Wanting to keep some thoughts and experiences private is different. ...

I love the discussion of honesty, privacy, and how the concepts challenge a person's sense of self. Like snoozan, I think that subsuming your self totally within a relationship is not the best choice and that it may be unhealthy--everyone should have a strong sense of self, IMO.

It sounds to me that what you are talking about when they say they are afraid of honesty is really a fear of being transparent (not honest) in your close relationships. Transparency goes beyond honesty and requires a great deal of trust. To me, being a close to someone and trusting them means keeping my integrity while becoming more and more transparent to them.

Where I have come to (I think) is that I must live with a principled center. Principles are unwavering and, therefore, the compass always points North. My goal is to live with integrity and transparency. Read if you will: honesty-- and it is more than that.

Integrity is the value I place on myself--that I say what I mean, follow through, practice what I preach, and that I am me all the time--good, bad, or indifferent. Integrity is owning your words, actions, and truth--making them one with your inner energy.

Transparency lives on the far side of honesty. It goes beyond honesty in that instead of choosing which things to share and be honest about, you allow others to see your truth at all times without careful selection of topics and subject matter. It's SO hard to do this. And I feel that it is crucial to work towards this within the confines of a close relationship.

And (not "but," as "but" negates all that comes before it) I know in my heart that what I try to achieve is good. It is good for me (and my trust issues) to push through and past honesty to transparency. It is good for others to interact without feeling "protected" from my truth (as weird and uncomfortable as that feels to us both/all). Who am I to think I can or should protect them, anyway?

And, as such, I must realize that there will be times when I am judged, marginalized, and compartmentalized by others who feel this truth and, perhaps, are unprepared for it. I realize that their marginalization, compartmentalization and judgment of me is a more primitive reactionary protection that we all do when faced with the things (truths) whose presence transcends our limits in new and unnerving ways.

I realize that while my natural instinct in those moments is to refrain, to hold back, to second guess--that my compass points North. And that as I walk this very challenging path, I reflect on what my greatgrandmother always said to me as a boy: "The long way home is the best way."

I've rambled, but I hope this helps in some way.

 

[HyperHulk]

I don't want or ask my husband to share evert interest, every thought, and every aspect of his psyche, and I don't want it. I require the same.

Umm, that's a little confusing. Your profile says male and 100% straight, how do you have a husband?

 

[Drifterwood]

So my questions are, do you think you should discuss this with someone you love, or do you also kind of need the extra sex to be a secret you lie about? Is that part of it for you? Is it not enough to keep it a secret? Does there also have to be a lie?

Thank you so much for being so open here, Drifterwood! I know it can't be easy.

I don't think that is any way to resolve this and I suppose this is where I am getting concerned with the what looks like the reality that I will never have a total relationship.

Let's say we start a relationship. When we get to the point where it is appropriate to be honest about your boundaries, I will say that I want 20% of my life, thoughts etc to be private. You may ask what I want to be private, but if I tell you then it isn't private. Even at this point I have never met a woman who would be happy with that - curiosity and cats.

I could play it the other way and say, OK tell me the things which aren't acceptable for me to do privately. How far down that list do you think you would get?

She put me in a box by quietly imposing her expectations without discussing them. I think alot of people do this because they want the relationship and would rather not deal with issues that if exposed would crash the relationship.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

again... back to the covenant of expectation....

that delusion that what your brain predicts might happen... is what ought to happen...

Its the reason you get angry when you press the elevator button and the elevator doesn't come... the reason you get mad at the driver in front of you going so slow, or fast, or whatever it is that is not what you expected.


The worst is when people imagine other people should think they way they want them to... feel the way they want them to, and express themselves the way they want them to, without regard to the other's true feelings, thoughts and actions.


Few of us really believe that other people see and react to the world entirely differently than we do.

And few of us really want to get to know the heart of another person... honestly and without judgment.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Phil, you and I disagree on so many topics, but you really got this one spot on. I couldn't possibly have expressed it so eloquently.

 

[snoozan]

It sounds to me that what you are talking about when they say they are afraid of honesty is really a fear of being transparent (not honest) in your close relationships... {snip}

Amazingly well said, Lex. This is one of the posts I'll copy and save to my hard drive. Thank you.

I will say that I want 20% of my life, thoughts etc to be private. You may ask what I want to be private, but if I tell you then it isn't private. Even at this point I have never met a woman who would be happy with that - curiosity and cats.

So discussing things that she couldn't accept if they were in that private box isn't possible? If this came up for me the way you described, my response would be to tell you that's okay, however, any serious illegal activity, heavy drug use, and a few other things are unacceptable to me. If you can't tell me that you won't do those things, I couldn't live within your rules. To me that's really extreme, but there probably exists a woman for whom this would be okay. I don't know. Thing is, you're bemoaning this "box" that women want to put you in, but you're expecting to impose upon them your own "box"-- just a different one.

It may well be that a committed relationship is not for you-- not something that you'll ever feel comfortable with. If that's not a problem with you, then that's oaky. What happens is that if you decide that you want one at some point, you may have to resolve that part of you somehow. In every relationship you have to compromise-- it's just how much you're willing to do so that matters.

 

[Drifterwood]

If you can't tell me that you won't do those things, I couldn't live within your rules. To me that's really extreme, but there probably exists a woman for whom this would be okay. I don't know. Thing is, you're bemoaning this "box" that women want to put you in, but you're expecting to impose upon them your own "box"-- just a different one.

Trickery and sophistry to call a non box a box. I like to give people complete freedom - it's ironic how few really want it.

And no, I don't do anything illegal or extreme, just private :smile: OK - sheep obviously.

YouTube - Bob Dylan - It Ain't Me Babe :wink:

 

[footlonghotdog]

hypotheticaly, i would not cheat on a partner. Not having ever been in a relationship though, i guess my input means fuck all doesn't it.

 

[Drifterwood]

I think it's a valid point. Namely that most of us have that intention. Then life happens, 50% of people married in the last year will now get divorced within five years. Your middle aged husband will be on a trip, be drunk, be offered a 25 year old and think he's the stud of the Western World, your wife will think she's lost her attractiveness and fuck her personal trainer, who really listens to her.

Yet we all come online and say how much we hate cheaters, all the words we have for these people are contemptuous, yet they are me, you, your mum and dad. The road to hell is laid with good intentions.

 

[snoozan]

Trickery and sophistry to call a non box a box. I like to give people complete freedom - it's ironic how few really want it.

And no, I don't do anything illegal or extreme, just private :smile: OK - sheep obviously.

YouTube - Bob Dylan - It Ain't Me Babe :wink:

What I meant by calling your version of a realtionship a box is that just like any other relationship, it's a contract, an agreement. I think you might disagree with that. If I'm right, help me understand why you don't see it that way.

Freedom is difficult for people-- there's a lot of uncertainty and risk taking and change involved with it.

I think it's a valid point. Namely that most of us have that intention. Then life happens, 50% of people married in the last year will now get divorced within five years. Your middle aged husband will be on a trip, be drunk, be offered a 25 year old and think he's the stud of the Western World, your wife will think she's lost her attractiveness and fuck her personal trainer, who really listens to her.

Yet we all come online and say how much we hate cheaters, all the words we have for these people are contemptuous, yet they are me, you, your mum and dad. The road to hell is laid with good intentions.

I quoted this bitch for emphasis, motherfunkers. I agree 100% with what you say, and I wish we could get away from the indignant moral outrage and into a real discussion of a very common experience.

 

[HazelGod]

I quoted this bitch for emphasis, motherfunkers. I agree 100% with what you say, and I wish we could get away from the indignant moral outrage and into a real discussion of a very common experience.

A funny guy once said that men are as faithful as their options...and as with so many things in this life, we laughed not so much because it was funny, but because it was true.

Or more to the point, it rings true...for a great many people.

DW raises an excellent point, one that I feel bears out the raw truth of my belief that human beings are not monogamous creatures by nature. That temptation is a common experience for so many people because we are so very often attracted to people other than our mates. So many relationships fall into ruts, each person taking the other for granted and neither feeling particularly desired. Then along into one of their lives comes a new person who hasn't lived with them for a decade and become intimately familiar with all their annoying foibles and failings...someone who's simply fascinated with the novelty of them as a person. And the person responds to that freshness...bathes in that glow of admiring fascination...drinks it in like one who's been wandering an emotional desert.

Some choose to deny such attractions even exist...others acknowledge them, but suppress their desires for a variety of reasons...still others act on them and rationalize it in some way. This, I believe, is what the OP was driving at...getting a peek into the thoughts of those who chose not to resist these impulses.

 

[Drifterwood]

What I meant by calling your version of a realtionship a box is that just like any other relationship, it's a contract, an agreement. I think you might disagree with that. If I'm right, help me understand why you don't see it that way.

Freedom is difficult for people-- there's a lot of uncertainty and risk taking and change involved with it.

We have a saying in business - you only look at a contract twice. Yep - when you agree it and when you break it.

I don't have the desire to fix things, I do when I have to lay down boundaries. But I find that someone always breaks the rules. So I don't put things in boxes, it happens enough in life.

I've never seen a pre nup - that would probably make me laugh my ass off.

 

[The Dragon]

We have a saying in business - you only look at a contract twice. Yep - when you agree it and when you break it.

I don't have the desire to fix things, I do when I have to lay down boundaries. But I find that someone always breaks the rules. So I don't put things in boxes, it happens enough in life.

I've never seen a pre nup - that would probably make me laugh my ass off.

If I was EVER EVER to re marry I would demand a prenup.
There is no fucking way I'm getting screwed over again.

 

[Drifterwood]

But have you ever actually seen one DF? I haven't. They must have them online somewhere. I'll go look.

OK I got to line two before I laughed.

http://www.pre-nuptial-agreement.co.uk/home.html?gclid=CMSjuOmL7pICFQbIbwoddj455A

Complete and download in 2 minutes. Lord have mercy.

 

[The Dragon]

Bloody hell.
That does it I'm putting all my assets into a trust for the kids so I'm as poor as a church mouse.
These hicks would give as much coverage as a threadbare g-string.

 

[AlteredEgo]

I will never have enough faith in anyone to marry him without a prenuptual agreement.